Interface Problem - Cork in the Bottle

[JLR]

I am having an interface problem. It involves a Northstar 941X GPS, a Simrad AP21 autopilot, a Furuno fluxgate compass and a Furuno 1941 MK2 radar. After having spent many, many hours trying to solve this myself, including calls on the telephone to each of the manufacturers above, I am hoping it may be solved here. In a nutshell, I replaced a 952X with the 941X (for reasons which are not relevant) and I can now, no longer receive heading output data on the radar or nema output on the radar. All was fine before I swapped the gps's. What is really odd is that the heading output from the fluxgate feeds into the radar with an entirely separate cable than the nema data from the 941x. Also, I know the output from the 941x is alive and well since it outputs just fine to the autopilot. There is a cork in the bottle somewhere and I cannot find it. I have played with all of the output sentences on the Northstar and the autopilot and I still cannot figure it out. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I am virtually certain that is is a software incompatibility somehow, somewhere.

 

[Boatnut]

Are you using Nema 0183 or the manufacturers communications protocol? If using Nema 0183 it should work providing all the sentences are present. If you are using manufactures protocol, t may not work unless you can find a device that will convert the data. Just because you updated to a newer unit of the same manufacturer does not mean the 2 units are using software the same, many things change with software upgrades.

Manufacturers love it when you want to go with their network, it locks you into buying there equipment. It would be great if a standard for networking units to be established.

 

[JLR]

Yes--I am using nema 0183. Interestingly enough, the swap put in an older (941x) GPS than was there before (952x).

 

[Boatsb]

Yes--I am using nema 0183. Interestingly enough, the swap put in an older (941x) GPS than was there before (952x).

Why are you dealing with all that old stuff. What a difference 4 generations of progress can make. I would be tearing out the old stuff and replacing with nmea 2000 compliant devices. 0183 is a lousy interface to begin with and troubleshooting it requires a device to read the sentences and one to send them. Its peer to peer so every transmit to receive pair needs to be set.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Why are you dealing with all that old stuff. What a difference 4 generations of progress can make. I would be tearing out the old stuff and replacing with nmea 2000 compliant devices. 0183 is a lousy interface to begin with and troubleshooting it requires a device to read the sentences and one to send them. Its peer to peer so every transmit to receive pair needs to be set.

I was thinking the same thing. That Northstar just doesn't compare to the new Garmins. You don't know how good the new stuff is until you replace it. Once you do, you'll wonder why you didn't replace it sooner.

 

[Boatnut]

What you're saying about getting new equipment certainly has it's merits, personally with a boat that normally cruises about 19 knots, speed of the newer equipment is a moot point. Accuracy, it's nice, it's a real challenge to spot on with the navigation equipment. Personally, if I can see what I want I'm happy, so 100 yard accuracy is just fine with me. If you have the wallet to do the latest technology, and that's what you want, hell go for it. Personally I have never found using Nema 0183, to be a problem, to install, use, or trouble shoot.

 

[Boatsb]

Craig its the same old story. Save money and live what you've got or keep things current and upgrade. If I had a large investment in a vessel with faltering navionics id be tearing them out and replacing them with current units. Just for the assurance of knowing I can count on them when it hits the fan. Boating is not a cheap hobby and should not so many cheap participants in it.

 

[jim rosenthal]

I had a situation this past summer which is somewhat like the one JLR has. My Northstar 6000i GPs unit stopped working. As you all know, they are no longer made and no longer serviced- Northstar does not exist as a brand as far as I can tell, thanks to Simrad who bought them and then threw the brand off a cliff.

I ended up spending a fair amount to get my Northstars repaired and updated. I could afford other systems, but I looked at them and didn't especially care for them. It was not an issue of being cheap; it was that I was used to how the Northstars work, familiar with the keystrokes and how the information is put up, and how it all appears. I didn't want to learn a new system if I could get the old one repaired.

JLR is asking us for help solving his problem if we can, not an implied criticism of how he does or does not spend money on his boat and its systems. I think the problem may not be so much a cork in the bottle as a language issue from one component to the other. I've owned both the 941 and the 952, but I don't recall enough about them to know how they output information to other devices.

JLR, I would suggest that you call Howard Rock at Outer Banks Marine Electronics in Nags Head, NC- they are open on Saturday from 9-12, and usual business hours during the week. They still service Northstars and know quite a bit about them and how they talk to other devices. They were able to repair my Northstar units and update them. They may be able to help you out. Good luck.

 

[JLR]

Thanks Jim.

 

[Boatsb]

I had a situation this past summer which is somewhat like the one JLR has. My Northstar 6000i GPs unit stopped working. As you all know, they are no longer made and no longer serviced- Northstar does not exist as a brand as far as I can tell, thanks to Simrad who bought them and then threw the brand off a cliff.

I ended up spending a fair amount to get my Northstars repaired and updated. I could afford other systems, but I looked at them and didn't especially care for them. It was not an issue of being cheap; it was that I was used to how the Northstars work, familiar with the keystrokes and how the information is put up, and how it all appears. I didn't want to learn a new system if I could get the old one repaired.

JLR is asking us for help solving his problem if we can, not an implied criticism of how he does or does not spend money on his boat and its systems. I think the problem may not be so much a cork in the bottle as a language issue from one component to the other. I've owned both the 941 and the 952, but I don't recall enough about them to know how they output information to other devices.

JLR, I would suggest that you call Howard Rock at Outer Banks Marine Electronics in Nags Head, NC- they are open on Saturday from 9-12, and usual business hours during the week. They still service Northstars and know quite a bit about them and how they talk to other devices. They were able to repair my Northstar units and update them. They may be able to help you out. Good luck.

Spoken like a man who would ship out of state to avoid sales tax.

Look at the money spent in servicing the old gear and having less reliable and accurate equipment.
I guess keeping up with the latest technology is not common in your field.

 

[Boatnut]

Craig its the same old story. Save money and live what you've got or keep things current and upgrade. If I had a large investment in a vessel with faltering navionics id be tearing them out and replacing them with current units. Just for the assurance of knowing I can count on them when it hits the fan. Boating is not a cheap hobby and should not so many cheap participants in it.

I can never figure out if I am lazy, stupid, stubborn, lucky, or skilled. Maybe a bit of them all. As I have been lucky enough to repair all my electronics problems, including the electrical stuff, I guess my opinions quite different than others.

Although not as fast as a network Nema 0183 works quite well. What you have to watch out for is all the information you want displayed available on both ends of the line. The sending unit needs to send the data you want, and the receiving unit must be capable of reading that data. Typically the only people with this information is the manufacturer. Some do list the information they handle in the owners manual.

Believe it when I say, the manufactures would love to get rid of NEMA, and lock you into their proprietary system, so you have to buy their brand to interface it. Truly a standard needs to be established, it would be a good cause for someone like Boat US to get involved in.

 

[Pete]

I will add another vote for NEMA 0183, not because it is great but it gets a rather simple job done well. My electronics are also aged with a Northstar 941X, a Simrad A21, ICOM AIX, all guided by a Thinkpad running Nobeltec Admiral Version 9.2. The Furuno radar is standalone. Wind, Speed, and Depth are also a separate system.

I can not think of anything that I would want/need not provided by these old NEMA devices and software. Using Admiral or any PC based navigation gives you the absolute latest raster and vector charts in 10 minutes direct from NOAA.

I will agree if someone is using the 941X as a navigation display, this is definitely insufficient. A cheap laptop and pc navagation program will solve this still using NEMA.

If I am missing some truly useful navigation function, I am here to learn.

Pete

 

[Boatsb]

One radar scanner able to used at 2 stations?
A completely redundant system with the ability to set up backups to the backups.
autopilot warnings when you set a course across a shoal or under a low bridge.
Up to date and supported software.
reliability and warranty.
Advanced options for course planning and running.
Integration with new systems like engine management and fuel use.


Nmea 0183 was ok in its time but would you drive your chrysler k car because you think you can fix it instead of getting a new mercedes?

 

[jim rosenthal]

Scott:

My engines were being installed in another state; I had them shipped to the installers. Yes, that saved me sales tax on them. Are you seriously suggesting that I ought to have had them shipped to my house just for the privilege of paying sales tax on them?

"Spoken like a man who would ship out of state to avoid sales tax.

Look at the money spent in servicing the old gear and having less reliable and accurate equipment.
I guess keeping up with the latest technology is not common in your field."

In my field, Scott, which is emergency medicine, we don't try the latest technology out on people. We like to see that it works before we try it out on live human beings. Boats don't die; humans do. Even when we're told that the latest technology is thoroughly tested and completely safe, we commonly find out that it isn't. We try to be conservative on that kind of thing.

 

[Boatsb]

Scott:

My engines were being installed in another state; I had them shipped to the installers. Yes, that saved me sales tax on them. Are you seriously suggesting that I ought to have had them shipped to my house just for the privilege of paying sales tax on them?

"Spoken like a man who would ship out of state to avoid sales tax.

Look at the money spent in servicing the old gear and having less reliable and accurate equipment.
I guess keeping up with the latest technology is not common in your field."

In my field, Scott, which is emergency medicine, we don't try the latest technology out on people. We like to see that it works before we try it out on live human beings. Boats don't die; humans do. Even when we're told that the latest technology is thoroughly tested and completely safe, we commonly find out that it isn't. We try to be conservative on that kind of thing.

We have new procedures and equipment made available to us all the time. To ignore progress because its expensivewill not stop it

As for the tax did you pay it when you brought them into the state as required or did you forget? One way or another if they came into the state you owe the tax.


As for the equipment I know if something is out of date and not supported it can not be re certified for use in the medical industry.

 

[Vincentc]

I appreciate those who generously share their technical knowledge and experience regarding boats on the forum. That sharing is very helpful and a pleasure to read.

Personal attacks are neither.

I will not make It to Mass today, let me say here,

Peace be with you.

 

[Avenger]

Nmea 0183 was ok in its time but would you drive your chrysler k car because you think you can fix it instead of getting a new mercedes?

Since you brought it up in a nautical context; I had to drive a K car once. It truly was the Bayliner of the automotive world.

 

[Pete]

One radar scanner able to used at 2 stations?
A completely redundant system with the ability to set up backups to the backups.
autopilot warnings when you set a course across a shoal or under a low bridge.
Up to date and supported software.
reliability and warranty.
Advanced options for course planning and running.
Integration with new systems like engine management and fuel use.


Nmea 0183 was ok in its time but would you drive your chrysler k car because you think you can fix it instead of getting a new mercedes?

[/QUOTE]

Let me start with making sure we are on the same page. What is being discussed is the merits of NMEA 0183 versus more recent protocols. Folks, we are talking about what electrical signals are sent over wires between components of a navigation system. I seriously doubt that anyone got rid of a K car because they did not like the data protocol between the engine and the instrument panel.

As for the specific deficiencies suggested, let me take them one by one.

Two radar displays with one scanner. I have one display head in the pilothouse and do not have nor want one on the bridge with a scanner shooting high energy pulses three feet above my head from behind. Keep in mind the energy level outside the stated propagation angles for a unit are not zero and all the reflections off local objects in the path of the propagation. I even have a separate rotate button to keep the open array turning for the Coast Guard with the radar unit powered down for when I am on the bridge.

Not sure what redundancy problem exist as a function of using NMEA. I keep a second laptop on board ready to go, but have yet to use it.

Warnings of hazards on course is provided by Nobeltec Admiral both at plotting time and underway.

Up to date software and warranty. On software I do not want to be a beta test for anyone. I use Windows XP, the most stable of the Windows OS and would not even consider Windows Vista, 7 or 8. BTW, Windows XP is still supported with updates by Microsoft. Have been running this software package without a failure for 5 years. Why mess with success?

Please identify any "advanced options for course planning and running" missing in Admiral 9.2.

And finally, my 1976 Detroit Diesels are dumb engines with nothing to send on any interface. They just run, and run, and run, make a lot of noise doing it, leak a little oil, and sound great.

Pete

 

[Pete]

JLR,

To get back to your problem, it is probably obvious to you that the Northstar 952X was sending some NMEA sentences or alternate protocol sentences to your radar that the 941X is not. If you still have the manuals for the 952 and 941, I would compare the two and see what differences exist in the section related to their outputs. Next I would contact Furuno and ask what NMEA sentences their unit requires to display the info that is missing. That is where I would start.

Pete

 

[JLR]

Thanks.