Ideas Needed for Re-sealing Pulpit and Fore Deck

[bobk]

On the way south this year we spent a few hours beating into 4'+ waves on the Chesapeake. We found water on the floor in the forward cabin and this led me to check the anchor chain and rope lockers. The bolts for the anchor chute and pulpit fastenings had water drips on them suggesting leaks. I cleaned the underside of the deck in the area and checked for moisture in the deck core and found elevated moisture readings aft of the three large holes in the picture below (which came from Walt P's boat when he tore off the pulpit and deck for re-coring).

Since the wet area sounds solid when hammered and only extends an inch back from the pulpit, it seems reasonable to pull all the bolts, drop the winch, and dry the cores, then over drill the holes and fill with epoxy and drill new holes through the epoxy filler. I don't want to remove the pulpit which becomes a big repair job.

Walt and I would both like to hear some alternate suggestions for this repair and remounting the chute and winch. By the way, the back side of the pulpit platform is a couple of layers of plywood.... which may also be wet, but there is no practical way to check it short of going through what Walt did.

Also, does anyone know what is behind the black plastic that covers the underside of the pulpit extension?

Bobk
Chateau de Mer
1981 48MY

 

[Vincentc]

When I removed my pulpit, I used a hole saw to drill a bunch of holes from the underside of the deck through the coring but leaving the fiberglass deck intact. The area was confined to the inside of the anchor locker and I was not too concerned with how everything looked.

The bad coring was rampant. I could not accurately determine the bad coring by tapping with a hammer. There was much more bad stuff than I thought.

Once I had identified all of the wet and mostly rotten balsa coring and dried everything out, I tacked a piece of plywood covered with visqueen to the underside of the deck. Using the plywood as a mold to keep the epoxy from leaking out, I filled the holes with epoxy and filler.

I don't know why you couldn't do much the same thing with the pulpit still in place.

Let me know if you want a more detailed explaination and some photos.

Regards,

 

[bobk]

If you didn't drill through the upper deck skin, you must have filled just via the original bolt holes. How thick was the epoxy, and did the exotherm get it smoking hot?

I think I understand your process, but a picture or two might be helpful.

Bobk

 

[dastahl]

BobK,
I did th same thing on Little Skooch. I removed with a trim router 2 foot squares from the underside in the Vee and locker area. Cleaned out the bad core and dried it out. Then with straight unthickened West System I made 2 foot sandwitch 3/4 inch thick of glass and balsa. Then I pushed it up with a tall scissors jack and plywood covered with a plastic trash bag. Let it cure over night. Then removed the jack and bag moved on to the next 2 foot patch. Anything bigger was too hard to handle by myself. I think if you had two people you could get much bigger patches which would help a great deal.

Very strong, very messy, did not cost much but terrible job over all. And guess what? I get to do it again with Big Skooch. I can't wait.

Skooch
New Bern NC

 

[Bill Allen]

When I replaced my pulpit I found some rot, not a ton of it. My pulpit doesn't seal tight around the deck so it can get water get under it. Since I really wasn't concerned about how it looked under the pulpit I just went ahead and cut holes big enough to remove the bad balsa. I srewed plywood under neath and put plastic inbetween the plywood and the underside of the deck. Dug more coring out so the void was bigger then the holes. Vacuumed everything lose out. Layed cleoth and carbon fiber in the hole extending under the remaining fiberglass using slow curing epoxy so it would'nt kick before I had all the cloth built up to the level of the top of the deck. I made sure all the holes had at least an extra inch of solid glass around any holes that would be drilled through the deck. Set the new pulpit on and redrilled the holes. Took it back up to confirm my locations were good. Caulked where it woud sit then bolted the pulpit back down using aluminum angles as washers. I didn't seal where the chain go's through the deck since water can get between my pulpit and deck and since it's now solid fiberglass figure it won't hurt anything and will allow the void to drain. Bill

 

[Genesis]

I did this repair on Gigabite and I was reasonably sure at the time I dismounted the pulpit that there was little core deterioration.

I was dead wrong. Wound up cutting it out from the bottom in the anchor locker, removing the destroyed core and replacing it with laid-in pieces of 3/4 marine ply and thickened epoxy around it, then re-glassed from the bottom. It was TANK tough when I was done and a hell of a mess of a job though.

You will not know what you have until you take it apart, unfortunately, and it's highly likely if its wet it's far more damaged than you think. If you just inject epoxy in there you're just shooting epoxy into the destroyed core area and the strength will be far from optimal.

 

[magnawake]

I am also fighting this pulpit rot problem. I cant figure where the water is coming from. I had a crack around the pulpit and the deck that I caulked, thinking that was it, then it started leaking again. I found the caulking had split. It was a very small split to say the least. I saw water coming in throught the windlas bolts just as you saw. I have a soft spot about 12 inch behind the pulpit. I dread to see how much balsa is rotten. I think its a bigger job than I can handle and I bet the yards will take me to the cleaners. The windlas looks to be very heavy for me to work on in the slip. This is a interesting thread and one I'll be foloowing. Good luck on yours.

 

[Vincentc]

There was never a problem with exothermic overheat. I poured epoxy thickened with cabo sil and wood flour, about 20 ounces at a time. As shown in the photos below, I drilled a bunch of holes from the underside with a 3/4" hole saw to determine the extent of the core rot and used an allen wrench in a drill chuck to break up the core bad core material then I used a shop vac to suck out the wet stuff and also used the shop vac to blow air into the core space to dry things out.

I drilled a bunch of holes in the upper deck in the area under the pulpit to improve access, drying and places to pour in the epoxy but that would probably not be necessary.

I covered some 1/4" plywood with visqueen, put a batch of thickend epoxy on top of the plastic

Then I attached the plywood to the underside of the deck with screws

To be continued

 

[Vincentc]

This is what it looked like when the plywood mold was removed.

This is a photo from outside the anchor locker looking in. I lined the anchor locker with some foam padding to cushion the work space.

You could just as well cut decking under the core and then replace the core with plywood and thickened epoxy and noted by Genesis. I did pretty much that in a core repair on our sailboat.

I think it is worthwhile drilling the holes to identify the bad, and good core. I think it will depend on size and accessibility as to whether it is better to drill and fill or cut and replace with plywood.

It is important and time consuming to remove the rotten core and moisture. I found a bad area around the port cleat, which could have caused a serious problem. Moisture can get into the core from any penetration.

Either way, it is a messy job. I used a plastic face mask and forced breathing air to try to keep the dust out of my eyes and lungs.

Regards,
Vincent

 

[Vincentc]

After sleeping on it, I have decided that cutting out a large section and replacing with plywood and epoxy is probably the best solution.

Only if the bad coring is confined to small areas around the penetrations would I possibly drill and fill. I will be very surprised if the area of wet coring is small.

Cleaning out and drying the cored area is a major task and cutting out the whole bad area will make drying and cleaning quicker and easier. Use the hole saw only to define the areas of good and bad coring.

Using a Fein/Knockoff multi-tool makes the cut and replace method preferred. It is almost easy to cut throught the bottom layer of fiberglass and the coring and produces far less mess than a skill saw or a hole saw. Tool also make short work of the not so bad sections of coring you will need to remove. I have used a Dremel Brand and also a Gemini, and found the Gemini cuts faster. You will need a good selction of duplicate blades. Blades do not stay sharp for long.

I did not own or know how well a multi tool worked when I did the pulpit repair. I did when I cut out fairly small areas of bad balsa coring, thanks largely to Katrina damage on the Oday 25. Some of those areas were about 3" square.

Larger area held in place with sticks and clamps: ( learned later that self tapping screws probably work better, when it set up you can remove them and fill the holes)

The stantions and bow pulpit were bent which pulled the mounting bolts and allowed water to penetrate the core. One of the bow cleats was pulled out. I removed the pulpit and stantions and got started.

Like most boat work the hard part is access and getting comfortable while you do the work. Working overhead is challenging and time spent arranging things to get yourself in a reasonably comfortable position will be worthwhile.

Use good plywood, I recommend HydroCore which is Lloyds rated 1088 and made unsually made from Meranti which is a Mahogany cousin. Since it is inside, you could probably finish it clear and have a nice looking overhead that no one but you would see.

I would not bother with fiberglassing the underside to replace the layer of fiberglass that you cut out below the coring. 3/4" plywood attached with filled epoxy will be stronger than what you removed. Use screws and or jacks to hold the plywood in place and make it conform to the deck camber. I you really plan ahead you will use the bolts that go through the deck to draw the plywood up against the deck.

Applying fiberglass cloth overhead will be and probably create an awful mess which will add no significant or needed strength.

Forget not what caused the problem . . . wood exposed to moisture. Oversize all of your penetrations into or through the plywood and fill them with filled epoxy and then drill your penetrations. Thus all holes will be through epoxy rather than wood. It will also add compression strength for the fasteners.

 

[bobk]

Thanks everyone. Some good ideas. Regarding the extent of core rot, did anyone try to estimate how bad it was with a moisture meter? In my case it seems pretty localized based on where I find moisture. My pulpit has had a cover on it through much or it's life, so maybe that helps.

I'm trying to avoid removing the pulpit itself because of the work and mess that Walt told me he ran into doing his. His was attached with blind screws from underneath as well as the large bolts and removing it destroyed large areas of the deck. Did anyone else encounter this?

It's a pity that Hatteras didn't go the extra 'mile' to prevent the problem. Never had it on my Taiwan trawler.

Bobk

 

[Vincentc]

Bob,
How do you use a moisture meter to check wood coring under a thick layer of fiberglass?

I assumed you could not, and I have never tried it. It would take some verification before I would trust a moisture meter.

Regarding pulpit removal, I did it and it was a difficult job which is probably not necessary. I had a fair amount of rot in the plywood pad under the pulpit, but in hindsignt I could have oversized the plywood around the penetrations, filled the voids with filled epoxy and then redrilled the penetrations. Not a perfect fix but one which will last my lifetime and probably the boat's.

Epoxy can be thickened from like honey to like penut butter. Unless you get it really thick, it will flow more than you oftentimes prefer. You can buy 50cc plastic syringes to inject it, but for the most port you can simply pour it.


Regards,

 

[bobk]

Bob,
How do you use a moisture meter to check wood coring under a thick layer of fiberglass?

I assumed you could not, and I have never tried it. It would take some verification before I would trust a moisture meter.


Regards,

A moisture meter designed for fiberglass (as opposed to one for wood or drywall) does this nicely. Before I bought the Chateau de Mer, I used it on several other 48MY's and found moisture in the core below the windows and on the fore decks as well as the aft hard tops. I also found water in the cored aft hull sides below windows in several Viking MY's that my son was interested in. They work very nicely. I recommend them to everyone for an annual check of the cored areas of boats. Most surveyors have them but seem reluctant to use them.

I haven't tried this, but assume you could verify what I'm describing by putting a meter on a piece of fiberglass, read it, then set the fiberglass on the surface of a water basin, or put a wet sponge behind it and read again. Maybe I'll do that if I can find a piece, but I assure you they work. The only interference seems to be the presence of metal. Again, you need a meter designed for the purpose. The Home Depot types read on a different principal and will not read core moisture of a composite.

Bobk

 

[Vincentc]

Bob,
I had only dealt with inexpensive meters with pointed probes designed to read moisture in wood and found it difficult to envision how they could read moisture under a layer of fiberglass. There must be other types and if you say they work, that is good enough for me. I do not understand how a TV works but technology does not stop me from watching it.

Regards,

 

[delta]

The underside of my pulpit extension was mostly hollow with the bottom black fiberglass attached to wooden 1x1 strips. If you remove the pulpit it's probably not necessary to remove the teak inlay.

 

[sgharford]

I pulled my pulpit up about a month ago. You are wise to take care of this problem now. I am replacing nearly all balsa core on front deck. I bought boat this way, but it didn't get any better in past 4 years of my stewardship. I tested for bad core with dead blow hammer, you can hear the change in pitch where core is bad. As for pulpit itself, it's really heavy - probably 180 -220 lbs. It's also allot bigger then you think when you have it off. Regarding attachment on mine (1976 43DC), there was a piece of 3/4 plywood that was screwed to deck. Then some bonding agent was added to top of plywood and the pulpit laid on top. The fiberglass sides of pulpit cover this plywood, so when you remove all the large bolts holding it down and wondering what the hek is still holding it, you are left thinking 5200. I pried the pulpit up (figuring it was 5200 - none present by the way), only to see the screws coming out from plywood. There is no way to remove these (wood) screws from top of pulpit - you have to 'hope' your deck is rotten enough that you can pry it up.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

You can be sure that not all of these were attached the same way. Some have been added over the years by various dealers/yards and although OEM, were not installed at the factory.

On our 53ED there is no plywood under the pulpit. As others have stated, YMMV.

 

[Genesis]

There was under mine, it appeared to be a factory job, and it was bad news getting it all apart and NOT fun.

 

[Vincentc]

Plywood here too, and same MO re blind screw attachment.

I went through several extra long sawzall blades getting in free. They apparently screwed the plywood down to the deck and then positioned the pulpit on top of the plywood. It was bedded in the same kind of filled polyester resin as you find under the cabin overhead. Looked like factory work to me.

The plywood showed no evidence of ever being sealed and the photo does not show the rot that I found with a knife blade.

Regards,

 

[Walter P]

My pulpit has the plywood (all rotted) and a bunch of sheet metal screws coming up from below. The strange thing is that the heads are not visible from below. It almost seems like they were installed BEFORE the bottom layer of glass cloth, which strikes me as impractical. As much as a PITA it was to remove however, it could have been worse had they used 5200. I must say however that as much as I love Hatteras yachts, they are not perfect by any means. The lack of thought with the assembly of the parts with no consideration of future water intrusion and subsequent rot is/was totally out of character for a company like Hatteras. They certainly should have had some better engineering for some of these items. Oh by the way, please don't tell me that all the others are worse, I expect they are, but they weren't Hatteras and their price tags reflected it.

My forward deck is now completely sealed and will be finished in the spring along with the re installation of the pulpit. It is a PITA job but one that can be done by most of you folks on this forum. I was convinced that it was a bigger job and decided to hire a "professsional" who originally would not quote me a firm number, but thought it would be around 10 thousand $. After milking the job for a few days I became concerned with his progress and asked again what he now thought it would end up costing me...reluctently he said about $20,000. I fired him on the spot and finished it myself with a friend over the following weekend. I'm sure there are lots of honest efficient folks in the marine repair business, but it sure is hard to find them... at least in the northeast. I'm starting to believe the old expression that "The boat repair business is the last vestiges of legalized piracy".

Walt