Hatteras Values Hit Harder

[Brian Degulis]

I've been looking at boats for sale and sold and I've noticed something. All boats are down in price but Hats are really down. I'm looking mainly at MYs and the killer deals aren't on the Defevers or other Tawian built boats all the steels are Hats. The only reason I can think of is the perception that Hats use a lot of fuel ?

Brian

 

[captddis]

You can't buy an outboard center console for what MY's are selling for. They are down 40% from a couple years ago.

 

[egaito]

I don't think its as simple as fuel costs.

Dockage plays a part I think. Availability is down, and prices are up. Why drive 30 minutes to get to a slip when your 30 something CC is often trailerable or dry-stackable much closer to home?

Maintenance for a boat sitting in the water is more as well.

Not sure if you've considered vintage in your assessment, but age is an issue as well. Older boats are harder to insure and finance, no matter what their condition is. With prices dropping across the board, people that might have once considered an older Hatt as "more boat for the money" can now find newer, more easily insured, and more easily financed boats in their price range. Heck, is financing even available any longer for older boats in this tight credit market? I haven't checked into that one in awhile......

 

[krush]

I never liked MY's, but if prices get down enough, I may get one to use for a couple years----then assume it's fully depreciated so any thing it sells for is free money!









Nah......I'll wait till the converts get cheap, or just go trawler.

 

[Brian Degulis]

Take a better look Converts are going for peanuts also How about a 1995 65' with a pair of 1692s for under $400K. My point is that it is somewhat isolated to Hats. Do some searches you'll find that other brands haven't been hit as hard they've been hit but not as hard.

Brian

 

[Boatsb]

Hatts are known as heavy boats and not very fuel efficient. I would understand the idea of other more fuel efficient brands holding better value but I see too many boats selling for peanuts lately. I do not understand the market as well as I want to but too many sales are driven by what is owed and what the owner or the bank is willing to take. Hatts seem to be owned outright or have smaller notes than some stuff I have seen. It's a theory but I think it may be influencing the prices of many boats out there. Also the fact that not too many boats from the 60's other than hatts are still viable hurts the overall assumption of older boats being worth anything.

 

[ThirdHatt]

I never liked MY's, but if prices get down enough, I may get one to use for a couple years----then assume it's fully depreciated so any thing it sells for is free money!

Nah......I'll wait till the converts get cheap, or just go trawler.

What is cheap to you? What is your price range to buy a convertible or trawler? I know of a few incredible deals these days and wish I knew someone looking.

 

[SeaEric]

There is little if any market for sportfish boats here on the Chesapeake.

We closed today on the sale of a 1985 Gulfstar 49 FBMY with T-671ti's (repo) surveyed well, good equipment and ran good. $49,000! Today I heard of a 1973 Hatt 53 Classic MY that reportedly can be had for $80K.

The big question is: How cheap does a boat have to be, to be a deal? Ed is correct in that the cost of ownership is at record levels. Slips, insurance, maintenance, parts, upgrades- Its all big money. In today's climate, the boat must be a big segment of your leisure time lifestyle, or a liveaboard, in order to "choose to afford" the luxury of owning one. Otherwise, it may not make good financial sense.

 

[egaito]

I don't have the time to do a market trend analysis for Hatts to justify the observation, but I did to this for a customer recently on another brand of boat with a loyal following.

This particular brand/model has enjoyed depreciation in average asking prices of about 5.4% per year for some time. Selling prices have been in line, with the seller getting an average of 92% of asking price. The market for this boat was OK in 06, and rattled a little in 07, but in 08, the trend showed serious deviations.

Half the number of this particular boat have have sold in 08 compared to 06 and 07. Granted, there's a month and a half left, but I doubt the market will catch the 06 and 07 numbers going into the dead of winter.

From 07 to 08, the average ask dropped 12%, and the average selling price dropped 14%.

The average difference between ask and sell grew to 19.2%, a far cry from the 5.8% between 06 and 07

Startling, yet telling figures on a brand/model with a strong and loyal following, much like our Hatts. I would not be surprised to find even more dramatic results in our market if I spent the time to grind the numbers, as this example was for a cruising sail boat with a 4 cylinder natural.

 

[Bill Allen]

I think it's deeper then that. I believe to some degree people want new as they percieve new with better. We love them (or at least I do) because of my age. When I look at a classic old hatt, old car, house it floods back memorys of a "better" time. Lets face it we're getting old, well at least you folks are. You love things you saw when you were younger watch classic cars, 60's and seventys muscle cars are hot. Boats get in the way of golf, the country clubs and travel. The world is changing, people thing old boats are the classic hole in the water, taking all their time and money. Plus you can't dismiss that good old boats aren't going to the junk yard, the new boats are still here creates a situation where there's to many boats not enough buyers.

 

[Pascal]

i'd like to know if the same trend affects similar boats... not trwalers or taiwan MY but comparting Hatt MY to Viking MY, Hatt SF or Bertrams or Viking SF, etc...

apples to apples.

i know someone who has an 89 Viking 54MY for sale, now listed down to 189. I saw the last survey, when they took in on as a trade, not great (few small things) but no deal killers either. A few years back a boat like this would have been at least 350...

I dont' think fuel is the issue, the MYs are not that bad fuel wise. they still offer tremendous value. You can take a 50 to 60' MY, big and comfortable, on a run an hour away for the week end for under $100 in fuel! that's not even dinner and a movie for two...

 

[Brian Degulis]

It's hard to say if Vikings have been hit as bad as Hats? Today if your looking for a MY 50' or longer your very best deals are going to be Hats. Looking at a little better it may just be a matter of volume because there are just so many more Hats available. If you do a search for a MY using Hat as the brand then do the same search using Viking there are an awfull lot more Hats.

What I don't understand is if you look at a boat like a Defever POC they clearly have not been hit near as hard as a Hat MY. The POCs have large engines and planing hulls similiar to HAT yet on average they cost more? I think you would have to be crazy to choose one of these over a HAT.

Brian

 

[BUSTER]

All of the above,plus the fact that no finance company wants to finance an old boat.With the lending market in the trouble it is in,even getting a home equity loan to buy a boat isn't easy.

That leaves buyers that have cash in hand. It is a buyer's market and what they are willing or in this case able to pay,dictates the price of any boat.

A lot less is possible for most people in this economic climate....what was easily made possible by a shrewd broker with good finance connections has ceased to exist.

 

[Red Hatt]

Take a look at Yacht World and look at all the viking sport fish for sale . It's along list of boats and they have been for sale along time so it's just not Hatteras Yachts. I talked to a Viking Dealer and they have had Zero orders this year for new boats. Viking has laid off lots of people. It's bad everywhere.

 

[Sparky1]

It's hard to see how Hatteras values could be any worse than any other quality boat of comparable age, but who knows?

As for motor yachts, I'm glad I'm sitting on a couple of them as opposed to convertibles. You don't find as many people living aboard convertibles, so it seems to me that's an advantage for the motor yacht seller. I made mention of this in another thread, but I have seriously considered marketing my 58 as a floating condo if the rebuild turns out to be more than my pocket depth will allow right now. I could spiff up the interior for a lot less than the cost of a complete rebuild, and given the current market, that may be money better spent.

Think about it, I've got well over 1,000 sq ft of living space, two salons, 3 staterooms, 3 heads, washer/dryer, fully electric central heat, and the monthly fee for the slip is $225. If I had to, I could offer owner financing with $5K down and $90K @ 8.5% for 20 years which would net a payment of around $780.00. I'm in a nice marina right off the interstate with several amenites and a great view of the mountains, and it's only 15 minutes to downtown Chattanooga. I'd say it would be pretty much impossible to find a place on the lake for a grand a month. All I'd have to do is chain the thing to the dock and remove the ignitions to keep somebody from doing something stupid.

Maybe I should put this in my for sale listing. Any of you guys looking for a cheap, waterfront vacation home in the mountains?

 

[saltshaker]

From what I've seen and heard. The only boat harder to sell than a Sportfish is an old Sportfish. MY's and express are easier to sell, but only the late model ones are selling. Most Hatts out there are older with Detroit power. Most buyers realize they have a lot to choose from and don't want the added maintanance of an older boat and older engine technology. Take a look at the difference in price of any 55-65ft Hatts with 92 series Detroits compared to the same boat with similar HP Cats or even Manns. No one wants to spend the big cash and have a boat that will need majors every 1500hrs.

As far as other brands, I've seen amazing deals on older Vikings and Bertrams, again with Detroit power. If I were buying right now, I thought I would be looking for a killer deal on a 52' or 55' late 80's early 90's Hatt, until I saw a 1999 Hatt 54C with 1350HP 3412 Cats go in the mid 400's! If someone gave me a 55C with 12v71's, I couldn't refit it and make it a better deal than that 54C.

 

[sgharford]

From what I perceive, Detroits are really inefficient in the way they make HP - that is, they burn allot of fuel. I have 1976 Cummins VT903M's that make 400 HP each and burn 15 GPH at cruise - that's comparable with today’s diesels from what I've seen. I know the majority of older Hat's have Detroits in them – maybe that is a stigma (jeese – don’t black list me from site for saying it) given the recent price of fuel?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

It may be perception about fuel economy, but in reality is it that much different? We had a 1984 49' Gulfstar MY with a similar semi-displacement hull as the our 53 Hatteras. It got about the same fuel economy with 350hp Perkins turbo V-8's as we get with the 465hp 6v92's in the Hatteras. Both could get 1nm/gal at 9kts and about 1/2nm per gal at 16kts. Maybe the newer engines are better, but with these deals on older boats, you'd never burn enough fuel to make up for the added initial cost.

 

[dastahl]

It may be perception about fuel economy, but in reality is it that much different? We had a 1984 49' Gulfstar MY with a similar semi-displacement hull as the our 53 Hatteras. It got about the same fuel economy with 350hp Perkins turbo V-8's as we get with the 465hp 6v92's in the Hatteras. Both could get 1nm/gal at 9kts and about 1/2nm per gal at 16kts. Maybe the newer engines are better, but with these deals on older boats, you'd never burn enough fuel to make up for the added initial cost.

Its like the Prius at 50 mpg $22K and a Chevy Cobalt at 30 MPG $12K. You have to drive the Prius 200,000 miles to break even on $4 gas. 400,000 miles at $2 gas.

Skooch
Worton Creek MD

 

[captddis]

It may be perception about fuel economy, but in reality is it that much different? We had a 1984 49' Gulfstar MY with a similar semi-displacement hull as the our 53 Hatteras. It got about the same fuel economy with 350hp Perkins turbo V-8's as we get with the 465hp 6v92's in the Hatteras. Both could get 1nm/gal at 9kts and about 1/2nm per gal at 16kts. Maybe the newer engines are better, but with these deals on older boats, you'd never burn enough fuel to make up for the added initial cost.

People get this anti Detroit hysteria, They are still very reliable engines and relatively inexpensive to own. The1000hr service on a Man or MTU start @ 25,000.00
The Gilkes Raw water pump on the MTU is 5,000.00 and is not considered rebuildable.......

The 1500 hr rebuilds on Detroits are because people do not like the cold start smoke, they still make power and run fine even with low compression. You can run them for years even worn out. I know of numerous 92 series that has 4000+ hours in pleasure craft that are still going.
On many of the more "modern" mechanical engines the smoke at the dock will run you out and it is considered normal. I know someone who has 2 huge industrial fans on the seawall for when he lights off his V12 MTU's.
Of course the electronic engines don't smoke and can do things the mechanicals can't do, but is it really worth six figures to replace something that works fine.

Last year I took a 1990 48 Viking on a 2800 mi trip. The boat has 760 HP 8V92 TA DDEC in it, ran at 1775 rpm making 24+ knots. Got .5 MPG consistently. I would double the mileage and that was the fuel burn.
When I got home there was an article about another 48 Viking that was just repowered with Cummins, the Cummins boat ran 1 kt slower at cruise and got .5 MPG. Other than new modern engines I do not see any gain there.


Of course people are buying the Smart Car for 15,000 and the Prius that Toyota loses money on and has a very expensive battery in it that will have to be factored into the cost. If you buy a 30 mpg regular car I think you come out ahead. People blindly buy into what they are told.