Gremlins again

[bobk]

We have popped the 20 amp breaker/GFI on the starboard side a couple of times in the past few months. Where should I start to look for the cause? This is so infrequent that I'm expecting it to be a pita. Could it just have gotten weak?

On top of all that, we got some rain water into the power cord and burned it up while we were off on a ten day cruise to the Panama (on a big boat). On return, both the port and starboard breakers were tripped, but we know the starboard tripped well before the the cord went TU. No idea when the port side tripped. Any suggestions guys? I replaced the cord ends today.

Can a problem in the power cord cause a gfi/breaker to trip when there is an isolation transformer in the system?

Bob

 

[TedZ]

Interesting.

If the power cord shorted out what happened to the primary of the iso transformer? Did it trip the breaker at the marina on a timely basis?

A couple of time in a few months for a GFI is close to normal operation. I usually say they will trip a couple of time a year just because of the phase of the moon! They do get weak BTW, but it takes very little leakage from an appliance to nuisance trip them. That's stbd.

As far as port did the breaker reset? If it were me i would make sure the iso is ok with a GOOD meter. I would look for heat signs in the breaker box or any bad connections anywhere you can see. If the problem isn't repeated when using the genny and the port breaker holds i personally wouldn't worry. If the stbd keeps tripping and the iso is ok i would replace the breaker. If it still trips then appliances, defined generally as anything powered on the boat with especially those that rotate...compressors, blenders etc. should be checked. It is a pita as you say.

Ted

 

[Maynard Rupp]

You are saying that 20 amp breakers are poping, then you talk about the ground faults. If the actual panel mounted breakers are popping, you have a problem. If the ground fault outlets are tripping, I have an answer. Our Hat pops them quite frequently and my electrical friends have solved it. I will bet that your ground faults pop when you turn off a flourescent light. It seems that the ballast in a flourescent occasionally will unload after the power is removed. This is a normal event. When that happens your ground fault on that side will pop. They never should have wired those lights through the ground fault circuits. Ours will cause a trip about every 10th. time that I turn a flourescent light off. If water got in your cord, the breaker should pop. That's why we have them. Dry the cord and reset the breaker.

 

[bobk]

I think the cord problem is one of corrosion of a wire. One of the male prongs overheated and the wire burned off. This usually doesn't trip a breaker because it occurs as a result of increasing resistance as opposed to increased current flow.

Interesting thought about flourescent lights. I'll look for that possibility. Would turning the light off cause an immediate trip? If so, we haven't seen that. The thing has tripped typically when we are not aboard.

Bob

 

[TedZ]

Ballasts that are tripping GFI's should be replaced. It is like the coil in a car. When the field collapses (is turned off) a voltage is induced but in this case it is arcing to ground. Not a good thing.

High resistances that melt contacts without tripping a breaker can and often do damage to other components. What that is is a contest to see what is wired heavier, the cord or the primary (unfused remember) of the iso transformer.

Ted

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I think the cord problem is one of corrosion of a wire. One of the male prongs overheated and the wire burned off. This usually doesn't trip a breaker because it occurs as a result of increasing resistance as opposed to increased current flow.

Interesting thought about flourescent lights. I'll look for that possibility. Would turning the light off cause an immediate trip? If so, we haven't seen that. The thing has tripped typically when we are not aboard.

Bob

Yup, mine pop the GFI as soon as I turn the wall switch off. This doesn't happen all the time, maybe one in twenty times. I have 3 flourescent lights, one on the port GFI and the other 2 on the stb. GFI. I can't believe that all three ballasts are bad. Any one of those lights seems to be able to cause the trip.

 

[bobk]

So I must have a different issue as mine typically pop when we are not aboard. Any other thoughts anyone?

Bob

 

[King Size]

GFI circuit breakers and GFI outlets are both rated to trip at 5ma. Moisture in the line is one of the main causes of nusance tripping. Investigate anything new added to that circuit but age could also be the cause. As these devices get older they tend to fail. When the older ones fail the outlet still works but
there is no GFI protection. Most electrical supply houses and diy stores have
testers just for GFIs. But I think for how cheep they are in boat $ I would
just replace the device and see if that cures the problem.

 

[bobk]

GFI circuit breakers and GFI outlets are both rated to trip at 5ma. Moisture in the line is one of the main causes of nusance tripping. Investigate anything new added to that circuit but age could also be the cause. As these devices get older they tend to fail. When the older ones fail the outlet still works but
there is no GFI protection. Most electrical supply houses and diy stores have
testers just for GFIs. But I think for how cheep they are in boat $ I would
just replace the device and see if that cures the problem.

These GFI/breakers are the Hat originals in the main panel. Look to be expensive, but I'm going to order replacements for each size in the panel just to have them on hand.

Bob

 

[TedZ]

Found a good GFI reference site.

http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm

One quote from the site:

Highly inductive loads like large motors or even fluorescent lamps or fixtures on the same circuit can cause nuisance tripping of GFCIs which needless to say is not desirable for something like a refrigerator.

Great site to learn trouble shooting techniques.

Ted

 

[Nick]

I had a similar problem with the OEM GFI tripping peroidically for no apparent reason. I checked all the connections to outlets, appliances and the panel wiring. Swapped the port breaker for the starboard breaker and found it was a tired 1979 vintage, Airpax circuit breaker. Sam's does not have the breaker style in GFI that I had, so I purchased two standard breakers from Sam's (one as a spare) and put GFI outlets at the receptacles. If you find Airpax replacements that fit in the Hat panel, let us know. I had no luck.

Nick

 

[Maynard Rupp]

The newer boats, (ours is an '86), came with GFI duplex outlets and standard breakers in the panels. That should work for you guys also. Home Cheapo sells those thing alot cheaper than you could ever find your original GFI breakers.

 

[bobk]

I stopped in at Surplus Unlimited (Daytona) today. found some odd Airpax breakers (5, 10,40 and 60 amp) but no 15, 20 or 30 amp, nor any of the GFI/breaker combos.

Bob

 

[SKYCHENEY]

How did we ever get by without GFI's? I say forget 'em altogether. What a risk averse society we have become. Helmets, seatbelts, scaldguard faucets. Common, toughen up! We all grew up without this stuff and we're all still here. My advice is to exercise caution when using electrical devices in wet locations, ie don't run the hair drier while you are showering. I'd like to see the actual statistics as to how many people have died because they didn't have ground fault plugs in their bathrooms.

I mean, really, where does this stuff end? Now they want arcfault breakers in new houses. Are you going to put those on your boat? I'm not saying that safety is bad or that erring on the side of caution is not prudent. I'm just pointing out that we keep adding more and more layers of safety devices instead of educating people how to think about what they are doing. It's frustrating that we keep adding to the cost of everything because it all now has to be idiot-proof.

Sorry for the rant.

 

[MikeP]

SKy,

You are absolutely right. It seems we have to spend taxpayer money to protect people from being stupid.

"Gosh, I spilled hot coffee on myself, I'm going to SUE!" Well, it is HOT coffee, isn't it? Didn't you order HOT coffee? Didn't you ever learn that if you spill something HOT on you that it would burn? It isn't called "HOT" for no reason.

Seems to me that survival of the fittest should apply...sadly, it doesn't.

 

[Boss Lady]

I am for letting Darwin do his thing. We definitely need to thin the herd.

 

[krush]

GFCI's are a very nice invention. You can be dead and cooking and that 15amp breaker won't know the difference

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Yeah Krush all that crap is nice and eliminates the need to think. The little nun used to smack our hand with a ruler to make us pay attention. No more, now we eliminate any possible chance that a stupid person can fail.

I think the best one going today are those stupid child car seats that require the little mom to stick her but out in traffic for 10 minutes to get the little darlings facing backwards and strapped into those contraptions. Hell, those seat belt systems are better than we had in our fuel dragsters, and we could face forward,(thank God). Nowdays the little kids can't go for a ride with grandma because it would take an hour to switch those seats.

Now, here is the kicker....When those kids are 6 years old they will be transported in a schoolbus driven by a very inexperienced person, and yes, they have no seat belts. About as smart as not using neuclear energy for electricity.

 

[krush]

Smart people make stupid mistakes sometimes too. GFCI is a good thing.

Draconian building codes for your own home, are a stupid thing.

There is a difference between the two.

 

[MikeP]

When I was a little kid - maybe 6-7 YO - living in the LA area, my parents used to periodically take me and a couple of my friends to the beach. We had to go over the mountains via a winding road. My dad would drive pretty fast and we kids in the back seat would go tumbling from side to side as the car took the curves. It was GREAT FUN and we looked forward to the ride almost as much as the beach itself. Riding in the back of a pickup was also real treat!

That now seems to be illegal.

Oh well...