Getting shafted... dripless ?!?

[richardoren]

Hi Guys,

Like the title says, are they shafting me dripless?

Got an estimate from the yard for changing the shaft seals at the hull and propellor mount: 45 hours of labor.

Is this for real? I'd heard in this forum that it was a pretty straightforward task within the reach of even an amateur greasemonkey like me. I wonder...

- are they being honest
- can I do it myself
- what time and tools/parts would it take

They're the original shafts hooked up the DD 8V53s.

Thanks for any advice or opinions. I'll be in Ft Lauderdale next week so I can find cheap parts there if you can point me the right way.

Cheers,

Richard
1968 38TC
1963 34DC

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Is there a reason for changing them other than trying to achieve dry bilges? A PO put dripless on my boat, but I would not have done it. I prefer the old packing type, especially with the new Goretex packing. I always worry about those bellows letting loose or an interruption of water supply such as running on one engine for some reason.

There is quite a bit of work involved in pulling the boat, uncoupling the shafts, breaking the shaft away from the flange, removing the old gland, installing the new one, tapping into each engine for water and routing the hoses, and putting the shaft back in and hooking it up.

 

[BUSTER]

Is there a reason for changing them other than trying to achieve dry bilges? A PO put dripless on my boat, but I would not have done it. I prefer the old packing type, especially with the new Goretex packing. I always worry about those bellows letting loose or an interruption of water supply such as running on one engine for some reason.

There is quite a bit of work involved in pulling the boat, uncoupling the shafts, breaking the shaft away from the flange, removing the old gland, installing the new one, tapping into each engine for water and routing the hoses, and putting the shaft back in and hooking it up.

I've been on boats that had dripless stuffing boxes during longtrips that leaked like hell. If the set screws back off or slip....in comes the ocean. That is exactly what happened twice on one trip with the same boat! I tightened the damn set screws myself and they still backed off. Finally,I dimpled the shaft with a drill and they stayed. I don't like the idea of drilling or scoring an Aquamet shaft any where that it wasn't,I have seen too many break in such areas.

 

[shark 1007]

The pss seal is pretty bulletproof, general propeller in Bradenton carries them. Have your marina block the boat and remove the coupler to the trans.(takes a puller) then you have to remove the old stuff from the stern tube and polish the shaft really well. The install is straightforward and you may need help to run a water source to the seal, jump from one side to the other with a hose to avoid the "running on one engine" issue and you're done.

I'm putting them on the 34 project, have them on my 41 and refit them to my 38 Bertram, never a problem.

 

[richardoren]

My bad.

Hi Sky,

The boat is on land in their yard, and their initial verbal estimate was 30 hours, then they said they could probably do it for less - only to mail me an estimate for quite a lot more. But maybe this isn't something for a newbie to try his hand at, after all if I mess up the boat won't be waterproof.

Here's a couple shots of what isn't too fresh after 40 years of wear and tear:

Is there a technical name or brand for the Gortex packings, as I'm going to have to get somebody to understand what is needed in French.

Thx,

Richard

 

[richardoren]

To drip or not to drip...

Hi Buster,

Have you heard of the dripless units that Shark recommends, and do you know where I can find Gortex packing in the Greater Miami Area?

Thx - Richard

 

[richardoren]

dripless ?!?

Hi Shark,

I found their specs at the manufacturer here:
http://www.gpcprop.com/pdf07 changed prices/PSS Seals by PYI.pdf

They sound quite a bit more expensive than the ones the yard quoted me, regular probably and not dripless. What do you think of the others' comments here - and are these a lot less work to install?

Rich

 

[Maynard Rupp]

When you first said that you were quoted for packings at the hull and props, I suspected that you were really talking about cutlass bearings. After seeing the picture, I would remove those shafts completly, clean them, install new cutlass bearings, and re-pack those stuffing boxes after cleaning that whole mess. I would surely replace the rubber hose connectors between the hull and the stuffing boxes and use new, high quality clamps. That is a lot of work, but that boat needs it bad!

 

[yachtsmanbill]

Hey Rich... break down and spent some FRANCS here! Get the hoses, clamps and NEW stuffing boxes from Buck-Algonquin from these guys. Goretex too!
I bought all that PLUS new cutlass bearings and a ton of other stuff from them.
They CAN NOT BE BEAT !!! ws
http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/catalog.aspx?cid=45&c=Inboard Propellers

 

[Pascal]

unless you boat has vee drives with the stuffing boxes under the engine, dont' bother with dripless. They're great but when they fail, it's usually catastrophic.

replace those, the hose, clamps, and put the goretex packing in there... it's virtually dripless.

45 hours ? what do you meant by prop mount ? the cutlass bearings or pulling and re sealing the whole strut ?

 

[oldboat]

basically there are two simple ways to sink your boat.
one is to leave the dockside water hooked up to your boat.
the second is to use dripless seals on your shafts. think of how few times anyone actually checks their stuffing boxes. there is no gage to monitor them. there is no way to look into a dripless seal and see if it is close to failure.
good old fashioned stuffing boxes with some gore tex packing. never seen a boat sink because of them.

 

[richardoren]

Getting it straight

Hi Maynard,

When you say "that's a lot of work" I guess you mean 45 hours ballpark. Glad you were able to correct my translation from French - here the inspectors use words that look nothing like the terms in English, and I don't think there's a marine engine technical glossary available other than for ndustry insiders.

I guess what is needed is Cutlass Bearings both for the through hull and the propeller struts. I thought all one needed to do was unbolt and bang out (probably pretty stuck after 40 years) the shafts, clean the shafts, replace the old chewed up bearings with new one, and repack or replace the stuffing boxes. What had me worried was:

- degree of physical strength required to shake the shaft loose
- extent of required experience and know how to do it right
- special tools that make a huge difference in man hours
- risk of doing serious irreversible damage if unskilled

Cheers,

Richard

 

[richardoren]

Corrected description

Hi Pascal,

No Vee-Drives so I'll stick with the majority opinion here and preclude any risk of failure with the goretex packing.

The 45 hours is for pulling the shaft, replacing thru-hull and propeller strut cutlass bearings and I assume repacking the boxes. To somebody who's never done it this seems straightforward, unbolting some stuff at the end of the transmissions and pulling the shafts; swapping out bearings and sliding the shafts back in. The shafts seem to be straight and true, and I even got a spare shaft with the boat just in case. But maybe the 45 hours are justified.

BTW Pascal, would you mind if I asked your expert opinion on occasions such as this, where I'm stumped by the French terms such as "supports d'etrave", "presse etoupe" or "meches de safran", and such cryptic descriptions? Methinks that "bagues hydrolubes" means cutlass bearings, lest you advise that I'm mistaken.

And how's the weather these days in Florida? Real grey and dreary here, but I land in Miami on Tuesday!

Thx,

Richard

 

[richardoren]

Off topic

As a side note, should I repaint the bottom before or after this job -> before would make sure the cutlass bearings are paint free -> after would make sure the new paint doesn't get scuffed during the work?
thx. Rich

 

[richardoren]

Bill sure is PACKIN' ! ! !

Hey Rich... break down and spent some FRANCS here! Get the hoses, clamps and NEW stuffing boxes from Buck-Algonquin from these guys. Goretex too!
I bought all that PLUS new cutlass bearings and a ton of other stuff from them.
They CAN NOT BE BEAT !!! ws
http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/catalog.aspx?cid=45&c=Inboard Propellers

Hiya Bill,

Glad to see she's shaping up so quicky, you're the dude!

Looks like the EUROS will be flowing, they're rated at around a buck fifty, and with huge importer, wholesaler and retailer margins here you can empathize.

I found quite a few packing boxes on their website, can't figure out which one is best for a boat with 8V53s - only 285hp which is peanuts to you guys with big boats. Any more specific advice?

http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/catalog.aspx?cid=51&c=Packing Boxes

Also, should I buy their cutlass bearings, or are all brands pretty equivalent? The yard says they got them in all sizes for pretty cheap (by Euro standards).

Lastly, I'm trying to keep the boat as original as possible, only making mods if they are necessary for safety purposes (ie to reduce risks of sinking) or for considerable upgrades in comfort (ie replacing pump toilets). Is it really useful to swap out packing boxes if mine aren't shot, or can I just repack them with Gore-Tex?

Thanks again, from your small boat buddy,

Richard
34' & 38' baby Hatts

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I think 45 hours is excessive. It is a 2 man job for the most part, so maybe 45 hours is not excessive. I would paint the bottom first. There are devices, some of which have been shown here, to remove a cutlass bearing without pulling the shafts. You still must remove the props. That device will not work for the cutlass bearing at the hull. In short, I would definetly pull the shafts and do the job right. That boats needs to have that treatment. Welcome to mostly warm and sunny Miami, Richard.

 

[richardoren]

Reducing labor time?

Hi Maynard,

I guess they're figuring on 22.5 hours per guy, which is around 3 days of the French 35h/week work week. If I could do some of the work myself (I'd be alone with a bad back) that would reduce the bill by paying just for refitting the new once I've torn it down. But can I damage something, or would they need to have taken it apart themselves in order to get it back together the right way?

BTW I sure am looking forward to Miami weather, especially as I'll head up to Vermont a few days later. Brrrrr....

Rich

 

[yachtsmanbill]

This one should work for you. A complete unit like this is a give-a-way for $80 !!
http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/series.aspx?id=184
I'd shitcan your old boxes... corrosion and the single gland/nut style is too hard to adjust in a hurry, plus to clean up your old ones is a half a day job.
FWIW, I indicated ALL shafts and bearings, removed the one coupling and both props, cleaned the port side shafts, pulled shafts, removed bearings, replaced same, installed shafts, (port side, 2 piece) re-installed new hose, clamps, and gland, and re-installed coupling BY MYSELF and spent WAY less than 10 hours total.
Of course I had all the tools and pullers lined up and ready to go. My shafts are 2" X 16 feet and weigh a damn good 150 lbs each. I was lucky that I didnt have to fight the stuff apart. What a pleasant surprise!
The times here DO NOT include cleaning parts, chasing stuff all over town, or any other intrinsic repairs made during the process!
If you want a detailed (with pics ) expose' email me at yachtsman36@comcast.net ws

 

[shark 1007]

On the dripless issue, go with what you like. The gortex is an option but I like a dry bilge. There was a big failure with a dripless, not PSS, that sank a 35 Carolina Classic couple years ago when two fellows were delivering the new boat. I think the price quote is way high, could you get them to use their puller to yank the cutlass brngs? You could service the packing with goretex, I tried it once and it got super hot and I wound up having to take one of the three rings out and they still dripped a bit. Brush the packing nut with CLR and a brass brush znd it will be cheaper that way.

My bilge pumps are on an alarm and when they come on, I know I have trouble, but they never do.

I think you can save a buck by doing some yourself. I do this all the time, a side benefit is that it gets done and you don't wait forever.

 

[REBrueckner]

It sounds like you are convinced the cutlass bearings need to be replaced...that is, the shafts are loose at those support points.....so be it...

If you're getting a pair (port and starboard) of cutlass bearings and dripless shaft seals on engine drive train, 45 hours sounds like a pretty reasonable estimate to me. It all sounds simple until something doesn't work quite as easily as expected...like the set screw(s) in the cutlass bearing breaks an have to be drilled out, and on older equipment, stuff always is more difficult than expected. As noted, at least part of the effort is two man.

As some have noted, the appeal of dripless shaft seals on a prior installation that doesn't have problems has always escaped me...a new pair of hose clamps and gortex gets my vote. As for the crummy looking shaft photos, just scrape off the barnacles remains, polish to your hearts content and they'll likely look great...but again, that's mostly unnecessary work...