Genesis or any 45C can you help me ??

[Gina Marie]

Genesis update on the Gina Marie Water Issue

Since you have a 45C and I think we are in the same serries I am running out of things to look for.

Problem: Accumulating water.

Where: Appox. three months after I purchased the boat I have had a water issue on my port side. I noticed this water after my first trip in my engine compartment forward where my sea cock is and under the engine. Very little was in my aft engine compartment mainly due to it draining into my mid ship bildge. After I took the boat to the keys I noticed again water in these compartments both times I used a water vacuum and removed all the water.

I had installed for multi-purposes a seperate pump with a 15 foot hose which I had drain into my mid ship bildge. So when I accumulated water again I simply turn on the pump and drain my port side comparments.

This always worried me.

I called Bruce at Hatteras he asked me to check my rudder packing, he indicated that water would some times work its way forward into the engine compartment and I did find a drain tube in my port aft compatment that lead to not my forward engine compartment but my galley compartment under my galley floor hatch which I never thought of looking there.

And this is where I need help. After I drained the galley comparment and dried it with a towel I placed paper towels in the compartment to see where the water was coming from. The water was actually coming through the compartment floor right along the inner stringer, best way to explain it would be like osmosis. Yes the water came through the compartment floor enough to make the towel totally wet after a few minutes. After further examination I noticed that the construction of the galley compartment had a forward wall that had been brenched and a irregular hole existed in which exposed what I think is the holding tank. The floor there looks like it is a sub floor that goes under the galley floor compartment and I found much water there. Again I drained.

I have open every concievable compartment which other then what was mentioned was dry. All Plumbing fittings that existed at the device like refrigerator,kitchen,bathroom,showers all where dry.

According to Bruce and Roger at Hatteras they are rulling out my water tank as all of this is happening with my tank at .25 full or less. They indicated that the tank is doubled hulled and unless the water was 4 inches from the top and breached it would not leak.

They are having me cut a hole in the engine compartment floor and put a drain hose through the foam into the keel and drain any excess water.

Their thoughts are that I have excess water thast could not drain. The water did not smell and was not cloudy. Actually it did not look bad.

Do you have any recommendations as to this water situation.

Thank you Gina Marie/ Tom

 

[Genesis]

Hmmmm..... you need to get it all out first.

I've seen it come down the BLOWER CLAMSHELLS! After a storm if the wind is off the stern you can BET there will be water outboard of both engines.

The galley underfloor area connects to the bilge immediately aft of the gear - the same sump as the stuffing box drips into.

I'm trying to get a picture of exactly where you're seeing the water come from.....

There are separate areas here - at least there are on my boat:

1. Under the engine itself is ISOLATED. The drip pan area does not connect to anything else. If you have water in THERE, its coming either down (or through) a hose (e.g. fresh water fill) that runs along there OR its sea water and is coming from the engine and/or the overboard head discharge (which is below the port engine, forward)

2. The bilge aft of the transmission has a tube running forward. This connects to the bilge area under the galley floor. There is a hatch which gives access to this area. Water DOES collect in there - if you have some in the aft bilge area when you come off plane it will run forward, and some will NOT drain back. This water will get NASTY FAST. I've run into this before - but the best way to deal with it is to run bow-high for a couple of minutes - it will drain back to the stuffing box area and then to the centerline well where there is a pump. A bit of dishwashing powder in that bilge area keeps things under control from the small amount of water that finds itself in there.

3. The starboard side likewise connects - under the master stateroom. Another potential stinky if water gets in there - and it will. Ditto on the dishwashing detergent.

4. The keel area IS hollow and there can be some NASTY water in there. If you have some in there get rid of it - there's a plug which is easily lifted out on centerline. If it comes back the first place to look is your bilge pump mounting in the center well in the aft engine room - the mounting base is screwed to the fiberglass floor, and if the screws are too long, and not bedded properly..... In addition any water that ends up on the deck on centerline (if you have an access hole as I do) ends up in there and there's no air circulation - so keeping it dry is basically impossible. I bleach it annually, wait a day, then pump it out with a shop vac. Nasty job.

5. An issue I've had no success fixing is that water will come in through the clamshell bilge blower vents with a stern wind in a rainstorm. This water ends up going through the blower, where it picks up rust from the squirrel cage wheel, and into the outboard sides of the bilge - and ends up near the main induction seacocks most of the time. If your blowers were recently replaced and are new the water might be clear - on my boat when it happens its got a nasty rust color on the starboard side because that blower is original - the other one blew up and I changed it - that side is now usually fairly clear, at least originally. I have had no success coming up with a rational way to get rid of this problem, but it only happens during heavy storms with the wind "just right". These areas do have communication to the rest of the bilge drainage in the engine room but only when they get quite full - so you get a goodly amount of standing water in there.

I'm trying to picture where you're getting the water - what year is your 45C? Mine's an 85....

 

[Gina Marie]

Thanks Genesis, mine is a 87 the water is most apparent under the galley forward of the wall that makes up the galley compartment. The water seems to accumulate in the galley compartment from "osmosis" as I can see it come up through the floor. This again is forward of the engine compartment wall. The water in the engine room is only there when there is water present in the galley and underneath. The water in engine room seems again to come through the fitting where the pipes breach the wall and this seems to work it way to the center compartment under the engine. Genesis the water is not nasty.

 

[Genesis]

That's strange....

My galley forward wall is colocated with the aft end of the forward stateroom. The water and waste tanks are between the two inboard stringers - black tank forward, water aft of it, with the aft end of that protruding about 3' into the engine room.

Neither is really accessible - there's a hatch over part of the waste tank, and the outboard area is under the other galley hatch. The only purpose for the forward hatch is really to get to a pair of water-hammer dampers under the hatch.....

I'm very curious about your boat, as it appears that its built quite different than mine... although only two years different, and in the same series!

Do you have a plug in the engine room floor on centerline that leads to the keel space? If not, its entirely possible you have water under pressure in there! The obvious question would be where its coming from though......

Is the water you're getting salt or fresh? (DON'T taste it - evaporate it and see if there's salt there when you're done, or stick some voltmeter probes in it set on ohms spaced an inch apart and tell me what you get) I'm assuming you're on salt water, yes?

 

[Gina Marie]

Thats way when I saw your 85 I thought we have the same design.

The curious part is that the previous owner cut a whole in the forward wall of the galley compartment that I believe hides the waste tank. I also have one hatch at the entrance to the forward stateroom. Thats makes two in the galley. That hatch is right in front of my refrigerator.

The water is fresh no salt evaporation.

I do not have a plug in the centerline. Bruce told me to cut a hole in my engine compartment floor.

Your right I cant access that part from anywhere. The water that at one time came throught the engine compartment floor was nasty this water is clean with no apparent odor.

Were does this put me know??????????

 

[Genesis]

If its fresh its either rainwater and getting into the boat and pooling somewhere, or its coming out of your tank. There are no other options.

Its not sewage, so that eliminates the holding tank and its plumbing (this is GOOD!)

You have to find where the reservoir is and then figure out how it can get in there, basically - but that's what you already knew.

If you can find the reservoir I'd proceed as follows:

1. Shut down and DEPRESSURIZE the fresh water system.
2. Dry out the reservoir.
3. Now turn on the water pump. See if the water returns. If it does, you have a leak in the plumbing under the deck. That's gonna be a LOT of fun to find and fix. There is a set of water lines under the gelley deck that have air-hammer protectors in them on my boat - if one of them was leaking it would end up basically where you're seeing the problem I suspect......

Got an inspection mirror (one of those ones on a stick?) Use it! With a light and one you can see the tops of the tanks and the plumbing up under there with a bit of creativity. There is also a hatch in the master stateroom in the forward port corner that has access to the holding tank pumpout connection - you have to pull up the carpet there to get to it, but its there. That's another access point to get that mirror and some light on the subject.

I think I know where you're taking about in terms of where its showing up - if I'm right there's no real access to that space on my boat at all, as its outboard of the port stringer and is basically under the refer pedestal for the most part.

My money is on a fresh water pressure system leak given that the water isn't nasty at all and is fresh.

 

[Gina Marie]

Thanks for the help will keep you posted. I dont think its the tank it must be a connection. Going fishing this weekend will start the project next week. Thanks again. Gina Marie/ Tom

 

[Genesis]

I don't think its the tank either. My bet is on a water line under the deck. The fun part is going to be finding the leak, shortly followed by fixing it. I would resist the temptation to pull that copper and replace it with hose - I'd give very, very serious consideration to replacing with new copper. Its cheap, you can cut and flare it to exact size, and it lasts a LOT longer than hose does......

 

[Gina Marie]

Re: Genesis an update on the Gina Marie Water issue.

Update: Hi Genesis I spent the afternoon reviewing our discussion went back to the Gina Marie.

I have come to the following opinion:

1- The compartments forward of the engine wall on both the port and the starboard side are dry. Thus with no water in the fresh water tank it must be a fresh water leak. Thats the good news.

2- The fill line comes in on my port wall an travels behind the kitchen inner wall which is accessible and this was dry and showed no water damage.

3-All the other lines on the port side run on that same wall, Kitchen sink, refrigerator and forward bathroom sink and shower I can see all these pipes and they look dry.

4- On the starboard outer stringer wall I see two more pipes coming through the engine wall along the stringer to what I believe would be the Master bathroom sink and bath/shower and they look dry.

5- I took up the master bedroom rug and there was a hatch which look like my holding tank. With an inspection mirror I was able to see the top only, not alot of room but again no water. Need to change clamps.

6- Under my master bed I had two hatches the forward starboard hatch owner mader was dry as a bone and the aft hatch which was on the outer strinker just outside the water tank was a little wet. I suspect this water being a little nasty or old was not part of the problem took a wet vac and cleaned up.

7- Under my night stand behind and under the bottom drawers was another hatch owner made right above the water tank again with an inspection mirror all look dry could again only see the top.

Genesis the only pipe I could not identify was the master shower which sits just on the outter starboard stringer but I did take apart in the forward bedroom closet the woodwork that housed the pipes to the toilet and shower in the master bathroom, again dry.

In conclusion my thoughts are now indicating tank!

Assumption:

No pipes run under the tank.

All forward pipping seems intact and is routed along the sides of the hull above the floorline on the port side and the starboard side they run along the outer stringer but can be seen and the starboard side is not a problem.

The water is fresh water.

The water seems to be building from just forward of engine room wall and moves forward as it increases to again just forward of the galley hatch.

Questions?

1- Whats under the fresh water tank? Can water reach into the forward compartments even as far a the front bildge area?

2- Are there any pipes/hoses under the water tank that I did not mention above?

3-When Hatteras's Roger told me the tank was doubled hulled and had a 4 inch overflow at the top what does this mean?

4-If I take off the plate ( intake and pipe to pump)on the top side of the water tank in the engine room will this access the inside of the tank for inspection, is this what you would suggest?

5-Can water seeps under a stringer?

6-Hatteras's Bruce told me to drill a hole in my engine room compartment floor just forward of the midship bildge to drain the keel. Does this space go under the water tank just forward in the engine compartment. My point is if water is leaking under the tank were does it go? The water that came up from the engine room floor was nasty the water that is now coming in is clean.

7-If I have a leak in the water tank and I find it how do I repair it?

What are your thoughts???????????????????????????????????????????????


Thanks Gina Marie/Tom

 

[Genesis]

Ok, kinda in order....

1. What's under the fresh water tank - as far as I know, nothing (the hull floor and then under that the keel.) I can't get under it in any meaningful way on my boat.

2. Not that I know of - all are ABOVE the tank.

3. That the tank has a double wall - likely the first one is the tank, the second the hull structure itself.

4. Yes.

5. Possible I suppose, but I doubt it. The stringers are tabbed to the hull and integral with the hull bottom. For water to seep UNDER a stringer it would have to first disbond that joint. This, if it happened, is very, very bad. More likely is that it is seeping under/through one of the communication pipes intentionally installed for freeing of water from one compartment to another. I've described where these go in the previous post.

6. I don't know, but I believe it does. I am not sure how far forward the keel space actually goes on these hulls. It pinches off forward eventually, but exactly how far it makes it first I am not certain. The space is partially foam-filled.

7. That will not be fun as most of that tank is completely inaccessible. If you can find it you'd have to cut an access hatch where necessary to get to it. Most of that tank is in places that are not going to be enjoyable to access AT ALL.

The water you saw under the master SR floor is from the bilge space aft the starboard engine; that's the terminus of the pipe that you can see just aft and inboard of the startboard transmission on the floor. If you stick a mirror down there you can see the other end of the pipe.

Pull the forward galley hatch (you should have two hatches.) Do you have air hammer protectors there and copper pipe? That is, I believe, water pipe. Its there on my boat - I believe it feeds the shower, although I have to check again exactly where it goes. I have not traced this all the way back to the source so I'm not sure where it enters the bulkhead at the engine room. Note that there is ALSO a fresh water feed for the toilet coming out of there if you have a Vacuflush system. This is all copper and the connections (along with the shower control valve and the hose for the showerhead) are behind an access panel on the side of the shower enclosure.

Speaking of which, how's that seal? Any correlation with you using the shower and the water appearing? That hose connection is blind behind the wall behind that panel - when I bought my boat that hose was in SAD shape - it wasn't leaking, but it wouldn't be much of a stretch to think it might, since its just a plastic hose inside an armored sheath. If it did, water would run down to the pipe connections and then into the space under the shower stall, and from there to wherever the "low point" is. Have you pulled the access panel inside the head on the shower stall wall? All dry there with the fresh water system under pressure?

When you say "just forward of the engine room bulkhead" do you mean INSIDE the two inboard stringers? If so, that's where the fresh water tank is. If its OUTBOARD of those stringers then it cannot be the tank unless it is completely full, because the tank does not extend materially above those stringers in the vertical direction. In that case it HAS TO BE coming from the plumbing SOMEWHERE, or from outside the boat (e.g. rainwater)

As far as I know there is no void space between the inboard stringers from the aft end of the fresh water tank (which protrudes into the engine room) to the forward stateroom bulkhead - there are two tanks in there, fresh water and waste, and the space is from what I remember completely consumed. I've not seen evidence of a drain or other communicaton for that space with any other bilge space in the boat - the forward pump under the forward SR floor is sealed at the bulkhead from the rest of the boat.

If there is a bilge space drain under the bottom of the tanks I've yet to find the limber holes for it. I've never actually looked hard for them though - so this doesn't mean they might not be there - but in all the time I've spent crawling around the boat - quite a lot - I've never seen evidence of communication between the two sides of the hull under the tankage. There IS space under the fuel tanks (there has to be, as the strut bolts are down there and there has to be a way to get to them) but to the best of my knowledge this is not true for the water and waste tankage.

Hatteras would know if its there and if so, where.

Here's another idea - disconnect the inlet to your fresh water pump. Take a 5 gallon bucket and fill it with water, to which you've added a decent amount of food coloring so its VERY distinctive. Connect the pickup side to that bucket with a hose, turn on the pump, and run all the faucets until you have colored water coming out. Now leave the system pressurized for a couple of days with all the faucets CLOSED and the hose in the bucket and the pump energized (so if the pump comes back on, it can draw some more supply water)

If the water reappears and is colored you KNOW it has to be in the plumbing somewhere, since that's the only way the colored water can possibly get into the hull.

 

[Gina Marie]

Thank you Genesis, will keep you posted.

 

[GOLE IV]

I have a 73 45c, different series form your boat, but had similar problem. My water tanks are between the inside stringer as in Gina Marie. Initially found a leak on the top of the Fresh water tank. Still finding way to repairs, since the leak is under the engine room center floor. Partially solved the problem by not filling the tank to the top while repairs is done.

Still found clean water, on top of the forward tank and under the main cabin and sometimes under the galley. Looking into the pressure gauge of the fresh water system and found that the pressure dropped with everything closed and pump off. (Should have think of this first). Since then I have found pinholes in the copper piping, at few locations. Some easy find or reach, some needed more time to reach.

The service to the main bathroom shower goes under and across the floor from the Port wall. If you have a leak on this pipe it can go to any compartment.

Good luck

 

[Gina Marie]

Genesis and update on my water leak, after taking up all my salon floors I found water on the outer port side under the water pump. After trying to get down between the engine and the hot water tank I had to send one of my sons friends who easily was able to find three leaks two from under the pump and one from the hose that leads from the tank in the engine room to the pump. Had my mechanic change out the pump and hose. I tried but did not have the tools or the room to work in. Today no leaks. Thank you for your help I did although learn a great deal on the inner workings of the Gina Marie. There's not a hatch or hose that can hide from me now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Again.

 

[Genesis]

Aha!

Yeah, I can fit in that space but its NOT easy - I know EXACTLY where you're talking about. If I was 20lbs heavier - no way in Hades, and its a contortionist act to get in there as it is.