Forum comparison

[67hat34c]

I have ventured into other forums, Boat US for one, noticed Pascal is a member there as well.

I must say on the Tech side no comparison, especialy in the diesel arena, you diesel owners have the upper hand here. As most of you know We have a 34c with 454's, I am no expert on these motors but can hold my own and do not pretent to be any kind of authority on diesels. Most of what i know about diesels comes from this forum, well evertying I know about them.
My interest in diesels is for potential conversion one day. Conclusion is that no way should this be done to save money as you never will, if you have the money and you want range and higher cruise speed then by all means it is the only way to go. However in the Boat US forum there are advocates who claim diesels are less maintenance, safer, cheeper to run, and last longer etc etc. in fact one of the advocates appears to be a Yanmar dealer, am guessing he wants to sell engines but that is only my opinion.
Am I missing something. What is there to maintain on a gas engine that is anthing more that cheep and very quick and infrequent to do? Oil change every 50hrs(what I like but more than needed), platinum plugs every 5 yrs and fuel filters when needed, ck the timing on older engines , no points with electronic ignition so no issue there, replace cap and rotor, every few years. Wow that may take me a total of 30 to 45m per engine , oil and filter change cost 40.00 for both motors, so for 200hrs per year 160.00 and that is the anual maint cost with nothing breaking down. cap and rotor and plugs for both motors 80 every couple of years. Racor filters every couple of years 20.00, Fail to see the high maintenance they are talking about.
So for a small boat gas wins in this dept is would guess.

also from what i understand there are more boat fires as a result of diesels than gas, this is per USCG. CO? only know of CO deaths as result of faulty Gen Sets not mains. so safety issue does not appear to be a factor.

and cheeper to own? 60-80k to repower to get any performance, wow how much diesel would I have to burn to break even?

As far as last longer, unless you are talking naturals the longevity does not appear to be that great for high power diesles from what most on this forum appear to say.

I cut and copied some of the in-frame rebuild topic from this forum to their forum and noted where i got it, hope you all dont mind but needed some facts.

Anyhow glad you guys seem to know what you are talking about and share what you know with no reservations and appear to be openminded and have good reasoning.

Sorry for the rant

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Steve,

in 2002 we sold a 28' Carver powered by twin 305 GM gas Crusader engines. At cruising speed - just on plain - she got 1.15 miles to the gallon. In January of 2003 we took delivery of our 1988 40' DCMY with 3208 Cats. When we brought it up from Ft. Lauderdale we were floored to accomplish the exact same fuel comsumption - on plain - as the old Carver. Since fuel prices went through the roof all of our old gas burner freinds stay at the dock and watch with envy while we continue to cruise.

Oh, you forgot to mention plug wires

It must also be said that if you are getting good service from your 454s and the "package" suits your cruising needs I would be reluctant to make any expensive modifications.

 

[67hat34c]

Steve,

in 2002 we sold a 28' Carver powered by twin 305 GM gas Crusader engines. At cruising speed - just on plain - she got 1.15 miles to the gallon. In January of 2003 we took delivery of our 1988 40' DCMY with 3208 Cats. When we brought it up from Ft. Lauderdale we were floored to accomplish the exact same fuel comsumption - on plain - as the old Carver. Since fuel prices went through the roof all of our old gas burner freinds stay at the dock and watch with envy while we continue to cruise.

Oh, you forgot to mention plug wires

It must also be said that if you are getting good service from your 454s and the "package" suits your cruising needs I would be reluctant to make any expensive modifications.

you bought a boat with diesels, not repower, so you did it the right way.

Plug wires, we did replace but not because they were warn, just replaced to make everthing new. but say every 5 yrs or so on them. We got the expensive ones, MDS, heavy ones. 60 per set i think. Owned for 3.5 yrs, engines insalled 12/98 by first owner. We did all preventive maint. pulled distributors and had them rebuilt at Mallory, installed Pertronix, moduels and got rid of points. new plugs, wires. changed risers and elbows, water pump impellors, and have done oil changes about every 50hrs instead of 75 to 100, cheep insurance, fuel filters one time, check once in a while and they keep clean. Onan 4.0 MCCK. one to 2 time a year carb adjustment and plugs, oil every 50 hrs, 3.5 qts, no filter. no smoke, no oil use and never misses a beat.

Stuff breaks on old motors but nothing to quote maintain of such. only stuff to break was easy, one had a bad base plate gasket in last few months, and had a starter solonoid go bad 1.5 years ago, pin came out. that is it. so we have 3.5 yrs on 19yr old motors with we are guessing 1200 hours on them, number is not for sure. dont use oil, dont smoke. other than fuel dont cost much to own. we get .78mpg at 20k cruise. 330b's would give us about 24k cruise and 1.5mpg but would cost 80k to repower: engines, trans. beds, shafts, logs,props, wiring, etc etc etc. then new diesel gen another 8k.

If your friends repowered they would still be at the dock because they would not have any money for diesel fuel

 

[ThirdHatt]

67hat,

I believe that those who say diesels are cheaper to maintain are considering the cost amortized over a long period of time. The gas engines usually go anywhere between 1000 and 2000hrs. At the 200hr/yr rate you suggested, you would be needing to rebuild/replace every 5-10yrs. With a diesel, you would last several times that depending on use, care and maintenance.

I am not sure, but I think that your $80k estimate for a 330B repower is a bit high. I recently priced them and you can get a pair of 330B's bobtail (with gears) and all new guages, etc for right at $30K. Do a bit of shopping and that $8k gen drops to $6k. You could still throw $20k at shafts, struts, props, etc and still be $25k under your $80k figure. You may be able to get it done under $50k if you do some of it yourself. I bet it would increase the boat's value another $30-40k as well. Fresh gas motors won't help resale value nearly as much as a percentage of rebuild/repower cost.

I am not saying that a repower is cost-effective because it usually is NOT. In general, if you plan to keep the boat FOREVER, it is an option worth considering. Otherwise I agree that in boats such as your 34C it is probably wise to continue to enjoy those fantastic-sounding big blocks!

 

[thoward]

Torque is a big part of the advantage. My 671Ns will run forever, my 12v71Ts are a diferent story. Diesel is safer than gas due to the flash point. I do like gas in smaller run and gun boats but for the bigger boats you need the diesels. If gas even came close you would see them in 18 wheelers. If you run cruise speeds for more than 3-4 hours you will wish you had a diesel.

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

Going back to one of your statements that you go to different forums. "if the truth be told", most people here go to different ones. Heck, I check out 5 other ones daily.
And both the Boat/us and Passagemaker sites have a couple of "Randys" on them, which is why I told Randy he needed to join them...
When we were looking for a liveaboard boat, we both decided we wanted a "name boat" for resale value. The marine insurance agent we used told us that buying a diesel boat would save us about 40% over what the same boat would be if it has gas engines.

 

[captddis]

67 hatt,
I stumbled onto the copy of my post on B US. That barnhard guy got my blood pressure up!
I have always believed and told people that if your gas engines push the boat at a good speed. Keep them. There is no doubt that they are much cheaper to own and repair. They are easier on the body to work on as well.
They are more tolerant of abuse as well. If a gasser fails, you do not have to mortgage the house to replace it.
After 40 ft or so the gas engines just do not have the power and diesel is the way to go.
As far as safety, either can be a danger if not maintained. Dave

 

[67hat34c]

exactly that dave. 34c is biggest one i would want with gas, if looking for another purchase would go diesel but not to repower.

 

[captadamr]

I will throw in my .02.

We repowered our 33 Tiara with 6Btas (rebuilds) and they have run great. In the first year we put 1200hrs on it, majority of that was at trolling speeds, and the only problem I have had were the thermostats. The Post and 46 hatt have natural 71s, and those bad boys go forever (approaching 4000hrs on the post since the last rebuild). Im sure that the gas motors would not get near these numbers without dying. The Port Authoirty here will not grant passenger liscences to Gasoline powered boats......

 

[MarioG]

I got to confess. when we bought our '65 34' Sedan, we planned on repowering with diesels. I'm not so sure anymore. Those Chrysler 440's run and sound absolutely beautiful! I probably will just restore her to factory paint and interior and keep her in good shape mechanicly and cosmeticly. When the time comes to upgrade to a bigger boat (soon), I'll probably do better at resale.

the next boat will have diesels...

 

[67hat34c]

I had the same idea then numbers prevented this. You have it right and from what i see on your blog, you will soon be ready for a bigger boat, I bet the bird will make you a deal on his 58, needs some work but nice boat, he is holding off on the rebuild of the one engine due to domestic issues.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Safety factor has to go to diesels. Gasoline exhaust produces lethal doses of CO2 and is a real and present danger. If I had kids, I can't say that I would let them sleep below with a gasoline genset running all night. I know, I know people do it all the time. Occasionally, they don't wake up! Not to mention the fact that gasoline is explosive whereas diesel is merely flammable. I prefer the extra safety factor of diesels.

 

[MarioG]

Safety factor has to go to diesels. Gasoline exhaust produces lethal doses of CO2 and is a real and present danger. If I had kids, I can't say that I would let them sleep below with a gasoline genset running all night. I know, I know people do it all the time. Occasionally, they don't wake up! Not to mention the fact that gasoline is explosive whereas diesel is merely flammable. I prefer the extra safety factor of diesels.

I agree about a gas genset running all night. I have pondered the idea of installing a diesel genset with it's own seprate fuel tank for D-fuel.

"re-generatoring" is a lot cheaper than re-powering.

("re-generatoring" did I just make up a new Forum buzz word? )

 

[67hat34c]

Good idea mario but i believe this has been an issue on other threads, believe diesel gen set is not ignition protected and therefore can not be installed in a gas boat. However the new low CO (not CO2) gens are fuel injected with a catalyst exhaust, apparently from what i read is that they are completely safe.

I have other ideas on how to improve safety of the existing gen. of course sealing openings such as removing opening windows and replacing with fixed, good rear door seal, you have the same rear door as me and i can show you how to seal it, pretty simple solution and anyone with a router and a little skill can make it. Also the hull vent on the side that the gen exhausts from should be altered, i have ideas there but not experimented with it. Just make sure you have 2 to 3 CO detectors on board and make sure they have a PPM meter on them.

 

[Pascal]

I think either diesels or gas engines can be a safe and viable choice in 32-40' boats depending mostly on how the boat is used. if someone puts a lot of hours on their boat, 150+ a year, diesel make sense in that range whereas for the average 50-100hrs a year boater, it normally doesnt.

most diesel gensets are not ignition proof and can't be installed in a gas boat... one of the new low CO unit and mutltiple detectors are a safe combo.

 

[Genesis]

There's nothing particularly bad about gas engines.

Their limitations come from their torque and how their torque curve looks. At a certain size boat they just don't do it anymore.

I'd draw the line in the mid 30' range; a 32 is viable with gassers, and a 34 might be. Somewhere around 34-36 you get to the point where you need the torque of diesels if you expect reasonable engine life.

 

[Boatsb]

It also depends what they are on how they are used. I had an old wood 36 Pacemaker with 165 HP V8 gas engines that ran forever. Forever was also how long it took to get anywhere at 8-10 Knots max for a fishing boat. My counterparts in 31 berts and other faster boats could run circles around me but I had the boat about 10 years and never had any engine issues even though I used it 200+ hours a year and it was older when I got it.

Kind of like running naturals for diesels. Long life and low power.

 

[67hat34c]

Genesis, I agree, on size but it also depends on what kind of boat. 40' searay does not realy need diesels, boats are full plaining and perform well with gas. Conversely 41 hatteras may be a little underpowered, would have to run the gas motors too hard to get a good cruise speed. I will say that if i had extra money to burn, i would very much like to convert our 34c to 330B's but that will never be in the picture. When the Crusaders get tiard will just rebuild them. Think one of them needs a top end and carb job so we will see.

 

[Genesis]

In a 34 Hatt I'm with you. You can buy something like three Crusaders in the crate - brand new - for what ONE overhaul costs on a diesel, and you and a couple of buddies can manhandle the engine in and out with an inexpensive A-Frame built up from pipe and a couple of chainfall blocks.

If you need to do anything more than swap out a cylinder head on that engine I'd just replace it with a crate motor, then take the old one home, rebuild it in your garage, paint it, take it to a dyno shop and run it in, fog it good and put new oil in it, seal all openings and then wrap it in plastic wrap. Stuff it in a storage unit and it'll stay preserved that way for years. Now you've got your OTHER new engine for when the other side needs replacement. Figure you can get two new (one crate, one "you rebuild") engines this way in your boat for well under $10k with you and a couple of buddies doing the R&R. That's like 1/4 of what you'd spend to have two diesels "overhauled".

It'll be a cold day in Hell before you can justify diesels in that boat in terms of the financials, even though the diesel boat is going to burn FAR less fuel, unless you're running commercially (e.g. charter, etc) in some fashion. If you run 100 hours a year on plane with diesels you might burn 20gph, and with gassers 30ish at the same speed. That's a 10gph difference or 1000 gallons. At $3/gallon we're talking $3,000. That's a lot of money and sounds like the diesel's the best deal BUT you have to add back the increased maintenance expense on the diesel engines AND the overhaul reserve. When you do suddenly the gas engines look real good.

You do the math then decide.

 

[thoward]

I know this will open up a can of worms but.......If I needed to repower a boat that size I would be looking at outboards. Twin 250s on a 36' boat would scoot. I took my 26' Welcraft and repowered with twin 150 Suzuki o/bs. I now have more storage than I can use and the boat lost about 1000lbs. It runs 40mph at WOT and 28 cruise.