Florida now has Ethanol gas

[67hat34c]

Filled up last night at a Hess Station and pumps said fuel contains 10% or less Ethanol. Did some research and it appears a company with help from the state of FL. built a massive ethanol plant in tampa, it went on line in october I believe. There are plans for one in south fl and one in Jax. Appears we will have to change tanks in the next 12 months I am guessing. That sucks.

Have no idea where all the corn, sugar, and other stuff they want to make it out of is going to come from. Guessing corn farms are going to spring back in FL,,they have been falling to development over the last 10yrs but now suspect we will see a rebound. also dont know where the water for irrigation will come from. State is already strapped for water as many states are.

Technical question:

Does e-10 clean the entire fuel system and does it clean combustion chamber and intake valves? If so then I guess there will be no need for me to add MMO in the cars anymore.

 

[J's Dream]

Steve,

All the Wal-Mart gas stations (Murphy USA) in the Melbourne area have those sickers on the pumps stating Ethanol 10% is used in all their gasoline blends. Thought that was interesting, especially since Sam's Club doesn't have that label yet....

Jason

 

[34Hatt]

Well I guess it time to go buy a pack of sawsall blades!!

What will happen now is when you start using E10 is it will break down any varnish build up in tank and start clogging filters. Good news is it will only get better some boats will be worse then other. If you are using the AJX gas prior this won't happen because the varnish will already be clean off.
I know you had use it in the past but since you are fiberglass It won't be any benefit to you Sorry!!
As for your deck If your core is still good you can cut it out one piece and then splice it back in.
Good luck Dan

Oh yeah GOOD point about the water just another solid point of this E 10 being a STUPID IDEA!!!

 

[67hat34c]

water to grow the stuff and water to make the mash with.


Deck was recored, has foam core for the most part. If and when we have to do it, plan to cut it out, then cut back the top laminent on the plug as well as on the boat, cut out the core below it and then glass the thing back bottom laminent first then core then the top.

I have a call in to a couple of fuel suppliers to get a pulse on when to expect it. Called the place where we buy fuel and the owner knew nothing of ethanol dangers. She gave me her 2 suppliers to call.

 

[drburke]

Hi Guys,

I got a little alarmed at this:

Does e-10 clean the entire fuel system and does it clean combustion chamber and intake valves? If so then I guess there will be no need for me to add MMO in the cars anymore.

For the record, since this is a Hatteras forum, you know the issue is *not* "cleaning varnish and clogging filters", right? Ethanol partially dissolves the fiberglass tank resin, and passes through filters redepositing on hot engine parts, especially valves and combustion chambers, requiring rebuild. I refer you to the analysis at BoatUS.

Well I guess it time to go buy a pack of sawsall blades!!

What will happen now is when you start using E10 is it will break down any varnish build up in tank and start clogging filters. Good news is it will only get better some boats will be worse then other.

I am guessing this reference is about cutting the deck to replace tanks, but
if opening one up is the idea, I don't want to consider the potential outcome of a sparking electric sawsall around a few hundred gallons of gasoline vapor. Be really careful! My first response is to use air tools in that effort, but I am not recommending anything short of flooding the tanks first.

Finally, in a different thread, someone suggested recoating the tank interior with a more resistant resin. It turns out the best chemistry resins are not available to the average purchaser, but a few exist to coat the interior of plant tubing, and are used by some new fiberglass tank manufacturers. See the BoatUS article, and google for raymacke and ethanol for more info.

This has been discussed widely in this forum and others, so be safe!

DAN

 

[drburke]

Dan,

I now recall EOTL is diesel (nice Cummins!) so mostly my comments are warnings for gasoline guys. Sorry to hear FL is getting the "benefit" of ethanol now!
67hat34C, is Catherine May also diesel now? And did you have a web site some time ago? If so, I lost the link...

Thanks,
DAN

 

[Passages]

Just a reminder to first time users of e-10. Try to run down your tank of straight gas as much as possible prior to introducing ethanol. The two blends are incompatible if allowed sit mixed for any length of time.

Your boat may develop an orange sludge which will quickly blind your filters. This happened to me when a blended tank of outboard gas was allowed to sit for about 6 weeks.

Your car should be OK as your likely to turn a tankful every week or so. (Unless you have a lot of water & dirt in your tank - then you'll be changing the car filters too)

 

[34Hatt]

Dan,

I now recall EOTL is diesel (nice Cummins!) so mostly my comments are warnings for gasoline guys. Sorry to hear FL is getting the "benefit" of ethanol now!
67hat34C, is Catherine May also diesel now? And did you have a web site some time ago? If so, I lost the link...

Thanks,
DAN

Yes I am Diesel but have been working on other old Hatts due to E10. As for Boat US well they Interviewed owners that I know. They still are trying to get it right. We have cut the floors up and have cut the tanks open also you need to purge them first to be safe.
Aslo Steve and I did not get into the part of it dissolving the resin that has already been beat to death here. Just do a search we were months before Boat US did a story on it.

Catherine May is gas.

 

[67hat34c]

I plan on running the boat with current tanks until the ethanol makes it to the marina's then change tanks, I can do all the work myself but suspect it is still going to cost 3-5k, tank and glass supplies etc etc. not to mention the extra dry storage rental, dont think i can do this in our marina. Will have to go to the cape marina for that and put her in bone yard.

Removal of a tank shoud consist of emptying it of gasoline then filling it with water then cutting the deck and then pumping the water out and pulling the tank Or putting shop vac hose on reverse, blow air down fuel fill spout into the tank and having an exhaust hose comming out the fuel sender plate hole and letting it discharge well away from the vac and overboard. run for an hour or two should do it.

I was wondering if there is a positive benefit for my car. Will it clean the injectors, valves and combustion chambers without using the MMO or other stuff? My guess is yes.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Hold it guys. I don't think that Ethanol is the kiss of death for your engines. Those Crusaders are alot tougher than you are giving them credit for. Your initial load of the crap might loosen some varnish and whatever from yhe inside of the tank. You might have to change filters. You might get a black deposit in your intake manifold and the back side of your intake valves. "Sea Foam" in the carburater should take care of that. The rest of the engine has no problems. We do not rebuild engines because of a deposit in mintake manifolds or on the back side of intake valves. This crap won't affect exhaust valves, they are way to hot. Just follow the directions on the Sea Foam can and all should be good. As far as the tank goes, we recently removed the fibreglass tank from an older,('72) Bertram 35. Now these are the tanks that are said to have a serious and real problem. We installed a new, (soon to be corroded), aluminum tank. After cutting up the old fiberglasss tank, we could find no evidence that any problem existed. Money wasted.

 

[34Hatt]

Hold it guys. I don't think that Ethanol is the kiss of death for your engines. Those Crusaders are alot tougher than you are giving them credit for. Your initial load of the crap might loosen some varnish and whatever from yhe inside of the tank. You might have to change filters. You might get a black deposit in your intake manifold and the back side of your intake valves. "Sea Foam" in the carburater should take care of that. The rest of the engine has no problems. We do not rebuild engines because of a deposit in mintake manifolds or on the back side of intake valves. This crap won't affect exhaust valves, they are way to hot. Just follow the directions on the Sea Foam can and all should be good. As far as the tank goes, we recently removed the fibreglass tank from an older,('72) Bertram 35. Now these are the tanks that are said to have a serious and real problem. We installed a new, (soon to be corroded), aluminum tank. After cutting up the old fiberglasss tank, we could find no evidence that any problem existed. Money wasted.

Maynard you need too come out of the Sun!!!
Steves boat is a 1967 and the tanks will dissolve it is not a IF, it is when. I have been through this with others up here in the N.E they thought they dogged the bullet. I laughed at them and said it will happen. Saw him this summer asked how his tankls were and he looked down at the ground and said I had to replace them this past winter. Seafoam what will you do clean your motors every time you shut them down better buy cases of that stuff. Then after a year or two when the tank totally fail BOOM no more problem.
You may have seen one good tank but I have seen about 5 bad tanks which was 5 for 5.

Even Bandit had E10 one season thought he dogged the bullet because he changed to diesel. Well this summer the gel coat was flaking up so bad kept clogging the pick up tubes he had to replace both tanks.

 

[Maynard Rupp]

Dan, I guess the tanks can be an issue on an individual basis depending on how good the layup was and tons of other factors. Unity's 400 gallon tank looks fine. I was more concerned with the thought that the engines were destroyed. Those Crusaders are tough and although a buildup on the intake valves might cause a slight perfomance loss, those deposits surely will not "destroy" the engines. I know lots about engines and you could throw water, Ethanol, lard, or whatever will burn through them and they won't have a structural failure. Maybe a bag of bolts through the carb. will surely destroy them, but Ethanol won't. The Sea Foam will remove those deposits and they will return, but it will take time. Dan, I would like to be out in the sun, the temp. in Detroit went to 9 degrees last night.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

Dan, I guess the tanks can be an issue on an individual basis depending on how good the layup was and tons of other factors. Unity's 400 gallon tank looks fine. I was more concerned with the thought that the engines were destroyed. Those Crusaders are tough and although a buildup on the intake valves might cause a slight perfomance loss, those deposits surely will not "destroy" the engines. I know lots about engines and you could throw water, Ethanol, lard, or whatever will burn through them and they won't have a structural failure. Maybe a bag of bolts through the carb. will surely destroy them, but Ethanol won't. The Sea Foam will remove those deposits and they will return, but it will take time. Dan, I would like to be out in the sun, the temp. in Detroit went to 9 degrees last night.

maynard,

i think the debate of the tanks will go on and on.
as far as the engine failure due to the aftermath, we are not talking about a couple of carbon deposits here. we are talking about a substance that could pass for black permatex and then hardens to a glass-like finish. it coats the intake valves, intake manifold and the carb. my secondaries were glued shut, and i had to chip the crap out of the bowl. most often the problems manifest themselves at startup, a intake valve freezes and you bend a pushrod, so it won't destroy the engine. it certainly is not in optimal running condition. but, it's not a stretch to imagine having the same thing happen at 3200 and hole a piston. even my 427 fords would object to that, and they can run on 4 cyl at 1300 to get home. (don't ask me how i know)
they sounded and smoked like a detroit but they kept on running.

jim

 

[34Hatt]

Well A crusader is a Chevy Big block and the heads have bronze valve guide! Well those deposits get in-between the stem and guide then when they cool bonds so well it pulls the guide out of the head when you try to start it. That is If the push rod does not bend or beak first. THIS is NOT speculation this is what has been going on here for the last two years!!!! So I know at least Steve and most of all the other now this also. So If you want to stay in a bubble and not believe the facts that is fine. Just don't try to convice others that it is not a problem.
Also do not use your year boat as a comparision to the older one's. That is apples and oranges!!

 

[drburke]

Maynard said:

I guess the tanks can be an issue on an individual basis depending on how good the layup was and tons of other factors. Unity's 400 gallon tank looks fine...

I am glad to hear this, of course. Let me bring up a few things:

First, Dan reminded me that this was discussed heavily on the forum last year. Sorry, I didn't make my point very well, which is, first, I was here for that debate , and second, since then the BoatUS analysis has come back and clearly describes the issue.

Maynard, you are apparently among the lucky because the concern is primarily with the older fiberglass resin formulation, generally described as "70s and older", "mid-80s and older", and in one article "built before 1991".

Since there are producers of fiberglass tanks currently, and since some resins are more resistant, I wanted to also bring up that apparently interior coating of tanks is of marginal effectiveness, in spite of rumors to the contrary. Follow the bottom links on BoatUS to the homebuilder. Dan is following the very best path of outright replacement, in my opinion.

My real point is that there is new information available since the big forum discussion, and is on the BoatUS site. No mystery remains

I won't elaborate on my survey of re-coating with resins reported to be resistant since I don't plan on doing that on my vessel, but will say it's probably a bad idea.

DAN

 

[Maynard Rupp]

I am sorry if I offended anybody here. I guess I don't know all the facts. I will back off this thread and let you guys lament your plight. At the first sign of serious trouble, UNITY will get a pair of Cummins 6BTA engines and a Northern Lights Genny. If I bend a pushrod, or hang a valve, or whatever, it will only happen once. My only concern is the fuel tank. I don't want to allow that thing to degrade so that it won't work with diesel either. So, I will watch this thread, but I promise not to comment.

 

[drburke]

Maynard,

You certainly didn't offend me!! I absolutely value anything anyone says here, and find it all to be valuable info. Pretty much everyone posting seems to have a good background, and I really like getting the different viewpoints. I say, keep it up!

Thanks,
DAN

 

[drburke]

Hi Maynard,

One more thing:

...At the first sign of serious trouble, UNITY will get a pair of Cummins 6BTA engines and a Northern Lights Genny. If I bend a pushrod, or hang a valve, or whatever, it will only happen once. My only concern is the fuel tank. I don't want to allow that thing to degrade so that it won't work with diesel either.

Exactly my approach! I know I have *some* damage because I see blackened interior patches through the tank wall, but the tank is capped off and I use an external tank. No engine problems as of yet. I also am hoping to preserve what I have for a future upgrade, but may open my "troublesome" tank for inspection. Pretty likely a few of us are in "wait and see" mode as you are!

Thanks again,
DAN

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

I am sorry if I offended anybody here. I guess I don't know all the facts. I will back off this thread and let you guys lament your plight. At the first sign of serious trouble, UNITY will get a pair of Cummins 6BTA engines and a Northern Lights Genny. If I bend a pushrod, or hang a valve, or whatever, it will only happen once. My only concern is the fuel tank. I don't want to allow that thing to degrade so that it won't work with diesel either. So, I will watch this thread, but I promise not to comment.

maynard,

no offense to me either, the exchange of information and opinions is what makes this forum unique and invaluable.

jim

 

[34Hatt]

You didn't offend me but I needed to make it clear!!! Saying that owners don't have to worry is not Good they need to know what is in store for them. Us up here in the N.E have been thru this and have seen it all first hand and we want to help everyone we can. Unfortunatley for a lot of owners there is no cheap easy way out of this. When this happens you will almost wish you had a Bertram seems most of all there decks screw down. Removing a solid deck is 80% of the work.
Also by the time you see the first signs of trouble it is too late. The tank is N.G by then.