ethanol related issue?

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i have been experiencing what turns out to be a fuel (gas) related problem this year. i am also finding i am not alone, at least in the northeast.
what i am being told, (from multiple second hand sources) is the ethanol in the fuel is breaking down the resin in the fuel tanks. the mixture passes the fuel filters and coats the intake valves, intake manifold and carb in a black varnish goo that results in the the intake valves sticking and bending pushrods or worse. has anyone else on the list experienced this or know of anyone who has experienced this? if so where has their troubleshooting taken them.

thanks,
jim anglim

 

[Nick]

I heard exactly the same story from a 60s vintage 34ft? hatteras owner who docks at the Shinnecock Marina in NY. I will try to track down his name and number for you. He had the heads off his engine for rebuild about a week ago and was planning to replace the fuel tanks because he was told of the ethanol affect on the resin dissolution of the fuel tanks and build up of resin in the engine areas you described. It was the first time I heard of the problem! Sounds possible but wild!

Nick

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i just got off the phone with hatteras. according to the service department, the chemists confirm the tanks resin is not compatable with ethanol. this is going to be a nightmare.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Most gasoline (at least in the Midwest, where I live) now contains 10% ethanol. Under the new labeling requirements, ethanol can be added up to 10% without posting it on the pump. If this effect is happening to your tanks, you may have trouble finding fuel without ethanol. It does sound unlikely that it would attack fiberglass, but I'm sure no one as tested the effect of ethanol on every resin compound that was used over the years.

 

[Genesis]

This sucks.

There is no fix for gas boat owners other than pulling the tanks (which on most of these boats means cutting the deck!) and replacing with aluminum.

Oh, by the way, ethanol is highly hygroscopic too (it likes water), which means more corrosion for you too....

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

it gets worse:
posted on another board

"My next door marina neighbor in Connecticut just pulled his fiberglass fuel tank because it was weeping gas. Bertam told him that the resin used in tanks of his boat's vintage (1978) are being dissolved by the new gas. He found a place in Tom's River, NJ, that is making a replacement aluminum tank with 10 days turnaround.
Engine problems are not fun, but nothing is worse than a leaking gas tank!
"

double fun for me with an aft cabin. tanks under bunks.
whose f#@* idea was it to mix gas and corn anyway???
this really sucks...

 

[SKYCHENEY]

You don't have to pull the tanks!!!

There are companies that specialize in tank lining. It was done throughout the mid to late 90's in many aging underground tanks to meet the 1998 EPA guidelines. It is usually a spray-on coating that can be applied through the fill hole with specialized equipment.

If I had a gas boat, I would check with the lining companies before I started cutting things up.

 

[Genesis]

Won't work - boat tanks are baffled preventing access to all of the surfaces.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Good point, Karl. I don't know why I didn't think of that . So, I guess the question is: Why does is this particular resin attacked by ethanol, yet they do make fiberglass tanks that are not. In fact, I own a 20,000 gallon double-walled underground tank that is made of fiberglass and is rated to accept all fuel types, including 100% ethanol.

 

[Genesis]

Just depends on what the tank was made of (resin type)

I don't think Hatt (or anyone else) expected alcohol in the fuel when these boats were made.

 

[mackenzie]

Does anyone know if a 1964 41' DC would have the same kind of tanks that would be affected? Were they fiberglass then, or aluminum? Thanks.
________
Bison

 

[34Hatt]

Yes it will be fiberglass and the boat in Shinnecock is Magic hat and Salty is aware of his problems. I have been keeping in touch with him and another boat in Ct same problems it locks up the intake valves and during start up they are bending or breaking push rods. Just heard of another boat in Montauk that was Chevy's and it pull the bronze guide out of the head. This is not good for anyone with gas I think eventually they are going to put Ethanoel in gas thru out the country.
Dan

 

[SKYCHENEY]

If this becomes a huge problem, and it may prove to be just that, it seems like someone ingenius would find a solution. I still think that you could coat the inside of the tanks--maybe by filling them with a coating material and then pumping it back out, leaving a skim of a coating all over the inside of the tank. Seems that if it affects a large number of boats, someone would try to come up with something that would work and they could make a good living doing it. Just thinking out loud.

Maybe the biggest problem would be getting an old tank clean enough for a coating to stick to it.

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

posted on another site:

"My brother-inlaw owns a boat shop, He told me that this year most of his repairs were fuel related and gas tanks (fiberglass and aluminum) are failing. He told me that in the 25 years or so he has been in business He has never seen this many tanks go bad. Aluminum tanks are rotting from the inside out....... I was told that the alcohol is abrasive and will also wear out the tank from the inside out...I think the words he used was it etches the walls of the tank... On older boats it first starts by cleaning the varnish build up inside the tanks. Most of that varnish will not be caught by the filters... "

 

[labrador]

Salty, did you get any info on the year the resin is not compatable with ethanol or is it all years. So far no problems however I'm getting worried. Going to call the marina I get gas from to see if they have ethanol added.

 

[67hat34c]

I am worried. my rear deck is new, dont want to have to cut her open. We are in Stuart FL. Called Sailfish Marina and asked about gas. they had no idea. They referred me to the fuel Supplier, Reb Oil, Stuart FL. Reb Oil verified no Ethanol in their fuel.

I would recommend that when calling marina's that you get name of the fuel company and verify directly.


I am sure ethanol will be comming as it did before. Will break my heart to cut her up for tanks.

 

[Rickysa]

There have been a number of threads on the Bertam31.com site regarding ethanol, and the consensus seemed to be fuel lines etc. rather than the tanks...search the site for "ethanol"...

 

[labrador]

Called Atlantic Highlands harbor where I get my gas and they called their supplier who verified NO ethanol however have no idea if that will last. Told them of a potential Big problem and they said they will make sure they will notify by signage if ethanol is added. Only helps at your home port though. Does anyone know if when buying gas they must notify you if ethanol is added?

 

[MikeP]

Although I have no particular knowledge of this specific issue, I thought I'd check at work to find if there was a related issue in the aircraft industry. I found that automotive gasoline is permitted for use in aircraft within certain specific guidelines - which I knew already.

However, I didn't know this: the FAA prohibits the use of automotive gas in any aircraft with fiberglass fuel tanks because methanol may be present which can cause the resin in the FG to fail. AV gas is OK because it does not contain methanol. Until reading this thread, I never heard of such a thing. What a nightmare! I did then did some further automotive research and found references to methanol/resin problems with "single wall" fuel tanks made prior to 1984.

I can't imagine going to the trouble of ripping out the old tanks and putting in new ones. Although I agree that with the baffles, it would be impossible to throroughly coat the tanks with whatever type of sealer. Wouldn't it be possible to create several access panels whereby the material could be thoroughly applied? The beauty of FG is that it could then be patched and be a strong as it was new. I'd sure investigate this first.

Until now, Hatt's integrated FG tanks were the best kind of boat fuel tanks!
Again - what a nightmare!

 

[UNIQUE_NAME]

i followed rickysa's advise and went to bertram31.
i didn't come away with the same conclusion he did.

it did have a link http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/motorgas/4_oxygenated-gasoline/default.asp.

which was an interesting read (well at least the ethanol parts) for anyone with a gas motor.