Corporate greed?

[Trojan]

I would sure like to think differently. BUT when they just shut down another plant last month and laid off 10,000 employees here in Ohio. Something stinks. Roomers have it that Chrysler is trying to sell off Jeep. The Detroit boat show is tomorrow. I don't think I'm going to make it. I'm in bed with pneumonia.


BILL

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

I'm in bed with pneumonia. BILL

I hope you are kidding. If not, I hope you recover from this EXPEDIENTLY!

(I also hope Detroit recovers too).

 

[Westfield 11]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

I would sure like to think differently. BUT when they just shut down another plant last month and laid off 10,000 employees here in Ohio. Something stinks. Roomers have it that Chrysler is trying to sell off Jeep. The Detroit boat show is tomorrow. I don't think I'm going to make it. I'm in bed with pneumonia.


BILL

Are you really surprised by Chrysler? That's what Vulture Capitalists do: create shareholder value by dismembering companies, selling all but the most profitable parts. Just remember that the shareholders that count are only them and not you. The Big Boys get paid no matter what happens, the smaller investor get stuck with the bills. It was all borrowed money anyway, they have very little of their own money at risk.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Are you really surprised by Chrysler? That's what Vulture Capitalists do: create shareholder value by dismembering companies, selling all but the most profitable parts. Just remember that the shareholders that count are only them and not you. The Big Boys get paid no matter what happens, the smaller investor get stuck with the bills. It was all borrowed money anyway, they have very little of their own money at risk.

Dear
"Status: OTHER
Hatteras Model: Not Currently A Hatteras Owner
State: Californi"

You sir are the colossal glittering crown jewel of sophomoric ignorance (and you need to learn how to spell California).

Economics 101: Supply and Demand are not optional regardless of the ruling system, be it a democracy, republic (USA), oligarchy, socialism, or whatever (this also applies to Fixed Assets).

In light of your failure to grasp this most fundamental of economic principles I suggest that you reconsider making judgmental economic commentary on this Forum.

While you obviously are not seriously invested in securities I am convinced that you will benefit by the continued abstinence from same.

Sincerely,

"Big Boy"

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

"Big Boy" Are you suggesting that CEO's etc always act with the interest of the stockholders as #1 priority?

Of course not. But I would be very cautious if I were asked to invest in a concern where the CEO owned the controlling interest (and) or was not someone whom I personally knew very well. We are fortunate to have the freedom to do diligence and scrutinize in depth where we choose to invest our money. And also to get the hell out if we think things are not going the way they should.

I am very saddened by the turn of events surrounding Detroit's "big three". GM just posted a loss in the billions. Chrysler has been in trouble (again) for at least a year. But amazingly, Toyota has just announced that it has now sold over 5 million Corollas! (Malcolm Gunn of Wheelbase Communications). And I've yet to hear anything that suggests that Toyota or Honda are in trouble. It blows me away that the American automobile manufacturer just can't get it right anymore.

Dr. Mike Adams, PhD of the University of North Carolina's School of Criminology pointed out recently that it is laziness that many liberals are content to denounce the (so called) icons of "conservatism," especially Capitalism, and refuse to expend the effort necessary to seek the truth which sometimes can be rather difficult (FYI, I find myself watching more CNN these days and reading more editorial commentary by liberal authors just to get other view points - though I may gag in the process).

 

[skrmetta90]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Chrysler's trying to sell off segments isn't an evil business stategy, it's out of necessity. The company formed back in the 20's for christ sake! I don't think they sat around the board room back then and said, "as vulture capitalists, we're going to build this company up and in 85 years sell it off in pieces to screw the shareholder, (insert doctor evil laugh)!" I think what "Big Boy" is referring to is the fact that the demand for these vehicles has taken a hard fall, and supply has a direct relationship to that. As he said, that's Econ 101.

I also think it's impossible to group all big exec's together. Just like every other job out there, there are good and their are bad; look at Jeff Skilling and Andrew Fastow, thank God they're not a representation of all big execs.

 

[krush]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Of course not. But I would be very cautious if I were asked to invest in a concern where the CEO owned the controlling interest (and) or was not someone whom I personally knew very well.

Why? Doesn't that help with the agency problem?

Capitalism is the ONLY way, but it does require ethics and common sense.

CEO's have been running companies into the ground all whilst making ridiculous 20-100+ mil salaries. Then turn the company to crap and then get fired and what do they get? A 20million severance package.

My friend works for Norfolk Southern (railroad) and he said it best. "The CEO makes more than the entire Virigina payroll combined". Even if there is only a sliver of truth to that comment, it is disgusting. One person does not do that much work or decision making.

 

[Boss Lady]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Somebody hires the CEO, and they make an employment offer to attract them to take the job. This is normally the board of directors, who themselves are elected by the stockholders. So the compensation package must have seemed reasonable by somebody or it wouldn't exist. Do I think that you could get someone to run some of these companies for less money than we see some CEOs getting? I certainly think so, but the board must feel that amount of money is required to get the CEO they feel can run the company and make a profit for the shareholders. Don't blame the guy receiving a paycheck, you need to look at the board who makes these offers. Please tell me you would turn down a large compensation package. I didn't think so.

The whole stock market is a big casino. Why would you buy a stock for $100 that only returns a $2 or $3 dollar dividend or less in most cases? Doesn't make sense to me either. Now for the real question. Do buy stock in hopes that the company has a good year and will return a good dividend, or do you buy the stock with hopes that a bigger fool comes along and will pay you more than you paid? This is the difference between investing and speculating. Most are mere speculators, don't do any due dilligence, and try to pick a stock that they can "flip" for a profit. This is why P/E ratios are rediculous, and never made any sense to me why anyone would put their money into a company where it would take 10 years or more just to get back your buy in costs. The only logical answer is that you are playing the Wall Street Casino.

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Why? Doesn't that help with the agency problem?

Capitalism is the ONLY way, but it does require ethics and common sense.

I wouldn’t say Capitalism “requires” ethics but we probably agree that conviction of some good kind always helps.

I don’t know what the CEO of Northern Southern makes nor do I know what your good friend’s source is, but my question to you is how can you verify this? (Oops, that “truth” thing again).

You’re not the only one who is put off by what may be considered the obnoxious salaries and bonuses of many of America’s leading corporate top executives. However, as you know stockholders are free to nominate and elect to the Board whomever they wish. And the Board of Directors are free to appoint as CEO whoever they wish and decide on the salary and bonuses of same. Yes it does seem out of proportion but to a lot of extent, but whether we want to admit it or not, a good many of these bastards are nothing short of brilliant (that’s why they make the big bucks). And they are the ones who are capable of more than just managing the day to day affairs of a major corporation but also oversee the corporate finances – the many short and long term investments that are also crucial to the company’s success in a global market.

I may not like it very much but I have no problem with a fat cat getting fatter if he’s enhancing my portfolio and dividends as well (legally of course).

 

[Trojan]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Jeep has always been a money maker for every company that has ever owned it. They are the only division of Chrysler that is making money. The new Chrysler owners history is in buying conglomerates and piece mealing the company's. What would you expect.
A local shipping company closed it doors on Friday two weeks ago. The CEO received 7Bil. and the next in line received 3Bbil. The workers received 2 weeks severance and no retirement. Looks fair to me, no greed there. Know one is worth that much money. I don't care who they are.


BILL

 

[(Nobody You Know)]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Somebody hires the CEO, and they...

I was wondering when you were finally going to jump in! LOL.

 

[Boss Lady]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

$10 billion was dividied up? What was the name of the company? How much did the shareholders get?

Oh yea, how much did the employees invest in the company, or did they just show up, work and collect a paycheck?

This communist mentality really gets me going. Let me see, investors put up the money to purchase the plant and machinery, develop products, put salesmen on the street, buy the raw materials, and pay the workers to do the work. I never figured out how an employee is entitled to share in the profits by virtue of showing up and getting paid to work.

If they want to be partners in the business they need to buy enough preferred (voting) stock to have a say.

 

[krush]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

....Yes it does seem out of proportion but to a lot of extent, but whether we want to admit it or not, a good many of these bastards are nothing short of brilliant (that’s why they make the big bucks).......

I may not like it very much but I have no problem with a fat cat getting fatter if he’s enhancing my portfolio and dividends as well (legally of course).

Please do'nt misunderstand me. I'm all for CEO's getting paid what they are WORTH. There should not be any regulaction on this mattare and until recently, companies weren't even required to report the figure (the way it should be).

However, in the past 10 years, something has changed. The number of overpaid crappy CEO's is rediculous. Look at Mozillo and Countrfried. The argument of "it takes big money to get the good people in" is fallacious and the board members are foolish for following it. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I do not stress too much, as long as the government keeps its hands out of the ordeal. There will be a flushing off the system and this ridiculous CEO pay without corresponding performance will cease.

/begin And when u think about it, how much freakn' money does somebody need? /end communist statement

 

[whaler23]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Which local shipping company just sent 10 billion to it's top two guys?

 

[Boss Lady]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Don't succumb to class warfare.

I own a company, I pay myself, I keep any profits left over after expenses, if I have a loss I suffer that too. If I happen to choose the right market to make products for, and make a lot of money, I ask what is wrong with that? I take the risks, I do the work, I made the sacrifices. If the company grows and I then employ others, which allows them to feed their families, I create an opportunity for them as well.

I never had a poor man give me a job.

It has become extremely difficult to start up a company and survive. I currently pay 54% income taxes between state and federal taxes. This means that the government takes a larger share than I receive without any risk. I am sick and tired of the freeloaders.

The media likes to use a few bad apples to try and bring down the whole system. There are plenty of laws to deal with these people if the government would just do its' job. The current situation where Krush uses Mozillo as an example could not have occured without the government turning a blind eye to what the banking/mortgage industry along with Wall Street did by creating AAA ratings for worthless mortages and selling these as investments. Mozillo's company was built because people are stupid, without stupid people buying Country Wide's products the company wouldn't exist. I picked up on the fact that this current party was out of control back in 2003 when I saw that banks were not requiring down payments for houses and prices started their meteoric rise for no apparent reason. Mozillo couldn't have sold as many mortgages without a place to resell the paper. Everyone involved in this should go to prison, including the government regulators who let it happen.

 

[Westfield 11]

Re: 1/2 Marine Max sales af FLIBS fell thru!

Dear
"Status: OTHER
Hatteras Model: Not Currently A Hatteras Owner
State: Californi"

You sir are the colossal glittering crown jewel of sophomoric ignorance (and you need to learn how to spell California).

Economics 101: Supply and Demand are not optional regardless of the ruling system, be it a democracy, republic (USA), oligarchy, socialism, or whatever (this also applies to Fixed Assets).

In light of your failure to grasp this most fundamental of economic principles I suggest that you reconsider making judgmental economic commentary on this Forum.

While you obviously are not seriously invested in securities I am convinced that you will benefit by the continued abstinence from same.

Sincerely,

"Big Boy"

Thanks for the personal insults, that always helps promote dialog. And for a self proclaimed pc dyslexic you are awfully unforgiving of others errors. You Sir, are simply rude and discourteous, but that is your right, as it is my right to either take offence or rise above your petty name calling.

As far as the actual issue that I raised, I do not understand what exactly supply and demand have to do with CEO's making 30 to 50 times what their average worker makes. Nor do I see how supply and demand affect the well known phenonomen of CEO's running companies into the ground or dismembering them and walking away with their Golden Parachutes.

You are correct about one thing though: I am not invested in securities. I am primarily a commercial landlord as my tolerance for risk does not extend as far as that of many others. I do have a sizeable portfolio of foreign bonds: Loonie, Franc & Euro, but that is as far as it goes for me.

At the moment I do not own a Hatteras, nor am I actively seeking to purchase one in the near future. I am sitting on the fence awaiting the bottom of the market before making a decision. It makes much more sense for me to bareboat charter for a month or so a year than to commit to the longterm care and maintenance of our own boat.

I was under the impression that this forum was also open to those who were not currently Hatteras owners, but recognised and appreciated these American Classics. If I was mistaken, then I apologise to those whom my non-owning presence has offended, but, in my defense, the system allowed me to resister even though I stated that I was not an owner. It has never been my intent to decieve.

Michael

 

[Boss Lady]

You forget that the CEO is not a monarch, he does in fact report to a board of directors. The CEO gives his vision and plan, and the board blesses it. If he was a rogue, they would fire him immediately, so in essence the CEO is doing the bidding of the board. They also set his compensation. So while one may have the opinion that these salaries are obserd, they are in fact deemed appropriate by the people who make the decisions.

I do not agree with a lot of things done in corporate America either, I especially despise the corporate raiders of the 80's and 90's. However, do not become a political pawn of the left because you are ignorant of the facts. The left is very effective at manipulating people's emotions. The reality is that government cannot regulate these types of things, unless it nationalizes these businesses. The owners of the company can pay someone whatever they wish. The board is elected by the stockholders (true owners). You should decide wether you agree with the board's leadership or not before investing in a particular company.

As far as boats and the forum, welcome aboard, also remember that this is a forum and occassionally people will feel insulted. Overall though, I find this exchange rewarding, and enjoy the immense knowledge the members volunteer, and the forum that our gracious host (Sam's) provides.

 

[krush]

I would sure like to think differently. BUT when they just shut down another plant last month and laid off 10,000 employees here in Ohio. Something stinks. Roomers have it that Chrysler is trying to sell off Jeep.

You know, people (especially in the north) always blame management etc when a factory is shut down. "What about all those jobs and families" they say. "F*()S(#$ those greedy management type".

How come few people ever say "Damn that GREEDY UAW!" See, the plants in the south that Toyota, Nissan, etc have are non-union. Why don't the haters take a trip down and ask people in Buffalo West VA if they are paid well and treated well. I'd wager a years pay on what their answer is going to be.

Detroit and MI in general had it common because of politicians, not CEO's. In a factory, there can't be "us (union guys)" and "them (mngment)" if you want to be viable today.

The UAW's greed is one of the main factors in all those factories closing--they somehow forget that unless a company is competitive, it goes out of business.

 

[Boss Lady]

What people need to understand is that the unions do nothing more than put their hands in the pocket of the owners, if you are a stockholder, then they are stealing from you. Their mentality is that by simply showing up they are entitled to become partners without investing. There are only two other entities that exhibit this behaviour, the government and the mafia. I was in Michigan a short while back and saw a building full of people playing cards, and when I asked about it, I was told that they were all laid off autoworkers, but were still getting a paycheck from Ford. That cost is included in every vehicle Ford makes today. Ford can close a plant but if they still have to pay the workers, they will not be in business for long.

 

[skrmetta90]

I like the new title of the thread, definitely more accurate! Westfield 11, IMO, this forum was designed for owners and non owners, and like you said, it is definitely for anyone who shares an interest in these American Beauties. I think Capt. Bill may have come down a little hard on you, but like said before, it's a forum, that's what it's for, to hear opinions. Welcome aboard! When i joined i was in the process of looking for a Hatt, and shortly thereafter i found it. Hang in there, hopefully you'll find a boat that fits.

The only thing i know for certain about my opinion on corporate greed is that it isn't worth the cost of me writing it down on a piece of paper. I cannot pass judgment on the way these businesses, CEO's, and BOD's work because i've never been in that position. It's easy for me to say i don't agree with a lot of it, which i don't, but how can i say that i wouldn't do the same in that position? Who's to say how far i would go to increase my bottom line? I say I wouldn't operate unethically, but is there a price that could compromise my integrity? I consider myself a very ethically sound young business man, and i know there are guys on here who have been where I am 20, 30, 40 years ago. I'm sure some of you have faced decisions similiar to what i've described above, this is why I post on topics like this, to learn and understand- whether it be right or wrong. So here's my question, when's enough enough? Businesses are started to make money, if not, they're called charities! At what point does savvy business tactics become greed?