Comments on Windows Frames/ Positive

[spartonboat1]

I have just finished pulling the window frames on one side of the salon of my 1972 43'DCFB. As they say, they were "really in there"; about three days of major grunting! Mostly a high effort of dragging out hardened caulking...good aerobic workout.

I must say that the quality of the fabrication of these frames is just beautiful, as least to me. They are strong, as I was stressing them pretty good, while removing them and they didn't bend (thank god)...

So hats off (pun there good I guess) to whoever built them. They were good so was their product.

Update: 7/6/2014: Comment: this is a very time and energy consuming task, if done right. Note: This post assumes that the wood panel and internal wood structures have been rotted by years of leaking caulk.
Below, as Project Manager, here is my WBS (work breakdown structure). My entries were indented, but the indent is lost when saved.
Full Task - Port side salon Windows:
1) Pull all windows frames (3),
1a) This can be a major effort: Judicious use of a Fein, or Dremel recip tool (don't damage the frame or the anodizing) can be a major time/effort (major) saver.
1b) Pull out the outer frame; easier said than done!
2) Strip all frames of old caulk,
3) Replace sliding glass fuzz, gliding slides, (center frame)
4) Obtain replacement windows (4)
5) Inspect existing window openings in salon:
5a)fiberglass of salon and
5b) interior wood conponent
6) Bad OEM configuration: Install new wood, epoxied in, where OEM fitment was missing bad (Bubba factor)
7) Replace rotted wood:
7a) Cut out bad wood
7b) Choose replacement wood:
7b.1) birch 3/8" marine/exterior grade plywood with special glues; stain to suit
7b.2) Oak 1/8" x 1" (? need to check dims)
8) Create new sections of wood
8a) Epoxy in new wood
8b) Cure epoxy
9) Pre-fit inner frame for correct fit,
9a) Drill pilot holes for new wood or where wood had not existed (screws did not have substrate)
9b) Install inner frame and screws
9c) Do "try-out" of outer frames, into the inner frames;
9d.1) make any adjustments for good fit- sanding or cutting of wood with Dremels/Fein, etc.
10) Install glass in frames: frames are laid out flat on salon floor in this case
10a) Install black foam (Sam's source) as bed for glass
10b) Lay in glass:
10b.1) Note: Good tool to lift glass is Bondo brand suction tool for pulling auto sheet metal dents
10c) Lift glass and center in frame nominal (as close as can)
10d) Cut gray gasketing for frame (Sam's source- perfect fit)
10d.1) Note: My approach was not to fit corner to corner
10d.2) Note2: Instead I "overlapped": gaskets fit so bottom gasket is overlapped by gasket above
and top gasket, as highest, overlaps the next down. Also easier to cut and fit.
10d.3) Cut so was about a 30 deg overlap
10e) Caulk frame with Sikaflex 291 (best for metal to glass), before install gasket (my approach)
10e.1) Note: 3M 4200 not best for glass, but instead used for frame to fiberglass & wood
10f) Play in the gasketing, installing "keepers" for glass, as roll in the gasket
10g) Order of gaskets: lowest in frame, next up, then top of frame: to allow overlapping
10h) Set aside to allow caulk to cure
11) Install inside frames:
11a) Note: outer frame with glass "inserts" into the inner frame that insert into the salon window openings
11b) Note2: The inner and outer framer do not "need" to be caulked to each other, as the outer frame should be well sealed, when caulked to the salon sides. However, if some caulk seeps between them, they become a sandwich, which increased their strength. So I applied enough caulk so that the two frames would be caulked to each other.
11c) Pre-caulk the inner frame to the salon window opening. Pull frame slightly out of opening to expose a little wood and the fiberglass. Apply caulk
11c.1) Note: Purpose is to seal wood, in case some water gets past the outer caulk in the future
11d) Push inner frame home to inside panel
11e) Install all screws to frame into wood panels or into sections of wood epoxied in earlier
11f) Installation of inner frames is complete
12) Install Outer Frames & Glass
12a) Lay down frame
12b) Caulk frame using 3M4000FC (fast cure- so be ready to work on steady basis!)
12c) Lift into inner frame and push into frame; should slide right in
12d) Install screws:
12d.1) I tried "new" SS Philips Head screws, but found the original Al Bugle head screws worked better!
12d.2) As screws are tightened the frame will be pulled to the salon sides
12d.3) Esp. interested is that the vertical bar on either end of the center window, will stop "bowing" out, as it was, when the frames were out. It will become "straight" with the frames installed and tightened.
12d.4) Also interesting is that my locker door adjacent to the aft cabin door, stopped sticking and jamming, as it did with frames out. With the frames re-installed, that locker door closed smoothly!

 

[sgharford]

I used a knockoff fein multipurpose tool with plunge saw blade to cut thru the bedding between the frame and fiberglass on the exterior that allowed me to pull it out pretty EZ (1976 43dc). Using a 3m rust/paint removal wheel to remove old bedding from frame proved most effective for removal of old bedding. Not sure where you are taking project, but I had all 6 frames powder coated for even $1,000 about 2 years ago. Another 2 bits, if glass was leaking somewhere (seems like forward starboard frame leaks on ALL 43 dc's)' watch for bend in frame due to ice expansion. As you noted, frame is extremely durable and very very hard to bend back by conventional means, may want to sub out to someone with hydraulic press to straighten out before reinstalling. Good luck, it's a project once finished that will make you smile every time you look at frames.

 

[34Hatt]

So what are you doing replacing or redoing those

When I rip mine out I am going frame-less. I have redone frames in the past by paint and powder coating none of it last get rid of the Aluminum and problems go away!

 

[gbharrington]

" if glass was leaking somewhere (seems like forward starboard frame leaks on ALL 43 dc's)"

Scott- did you mean forward port window? Mine leaked so much and for so long (prior to my ownership) that it rotted out some of the salon floor and a good portion of the forward head. There is a whole story that goes with the reason why (Steve @ Sams).

 

[sgharford]

Hi Greg,
My Port forward windows was not nearly as bad as Starboard. I had fella on my boat who looked at allot of 43DC's prior to buying a convertible and told me all the 43DC's he looked at had the same leak on starboard forward window just like mine did (at the time).

So you have to tell the story about Steve told you why they all leak on Port side? Was it the template they used for cutting out fiberglass for frame wrong for a decade? They really did butch those cut outs, I had to do allot of fill to make them right.

 

[gbharrington]

The first thing that I did after I bought my boat was remove all the windows. In my case, every internal trim ring fit like a glove, EXCEPT the forward port window. The vertical leg was almost 1/2 inch longer where it met the arced piece. Steve told me 2 things that I remember; one is that the frames and trim rings were built by a company in Alabama and back in those days (way pre CNC) they used a Sawzall to cut the window openings. The second is that if he had a dollar for every time somebody bitched about the forward port window leaking in a 43 DC that he would be a rich man.
Now I don't know if they used the trim ring as a template or not, but nonetheless the trim ring had to fit. So the end result was that they had to cut away too much material to get a proper window seal. My solution the problem was to remove 1/2 inch of material from the vertical leg and replace the wood backing in that area, which provided something for the screws to bite into. I did not bother to get it rewelded because it's only a trim ring and is not part of the window sealing system.

 

[sgharford]

Now that's interesting history, thanks for sharing! And if it wasn't for that nice arch in the forward frames I would have had custom replacements made - that arch was more then anyone I could find could do. A trapezoid would take too much away from aesthetics. Like what you did Greg, must say you have allot of good solutions (forever grateful for those pictures of how to get full size fridge into 43dc). I used 2 quarts of 3m high density filler to tighten up window cut outs, hard to believe Hatteras could be so butch when the rest of the boat put together so well.

 

[spartonboat1]

So what are you doing replacing or redoing those

When I rip mine out I am going frame-less. I have redone frames in the past by paint and powder coating none of it last get rid of the Aluminum and problems go away!

Just my observation, but with all the frames out, the structural integrity of the salon superstructure does vary a little bit. I now have locker doors that never stuck before that will now now close. It only change the configuration by 5 thousands of inch to make things stick.

Anyway, I would not go frameless, IMHO, due to reduction in structural integrity...just sayin'

P.s, my frames will be re-stalled this week...

Update: just re-installed the frames complete. This made a major difference in the locker doors sticking! Now they close smoothly, as before, when the frames were in place. So the frames make a major difference in the integrity of the salon structure.

 

[spartonboat1]

I used a knockoff fein multipurpose tool with plunge saw blade to cut thru the bedding between the frame and fiberglass on the exterior that allowed me to pull it out pretty EZ (1976 43dc). Using a 3m rust/paint removal wheel to remove old bedding from frame proved most effective for removal of old bedding. Not sure where you are taking project, but I had all 6 frames powder coated for even $1,000 about 2 years ago. Another 2 bits, if glass was leaking somewhere (seems like forward starboard frame leaks on ALL 43 dc's)' watch for bend in frame due to ice expansion. As you noted, frame is extremely durable and very very hard to bend back by conventional means, may want to sub out to someone with hydraulic press to straighten out before reinstalling. Good luck, it's a project once finished that will make you smile every time you look at frames.

I agree on use of the plunge saw, but (this is very embarrassing) I used my Dremel brand recip saw that had a saw tip that was too short. I found the longer saw only afterward, when going through my tools, as I had misplaced the long saw tips. Mainly I was concerned about scratching off the finish.

We are having good success with Zipstrip to remove the caulk...and I tried everthing- high powered power washer, Shark steamer and all manner of other softener, including de-bonder (supposed to work on 3M5200), with no luck. Then out of desparation tried Zipstrip..Voila! We soak a section with ZP overnight and it softens quit a bit during the day. Thinner layers loosen fairly quickly w/ZP.

 

[spartonboat1]

Appearance where rotted...from today Jun 28,2014:d
Center section where had rot. Had two such areas, but at each end of the center window that had been leaking. Frankly it looked worse than I thought it would, once I had the frames pulled and uncovered the wood. But when when the bad area was pulled/cut out (see next pix post), the shim/backing board adjacent to the outer salon fiberglas wall, was ok, thankfully.

 

[spartonboat1]

Pix after used Dremel saw to remove sections of wood. This shows the "good" wood vs. the backing board, which is against the salon fibeglas walls. The openings are a little (?) rough and I will be cleaning them up at the corners and sanding to level out.

 

[spartonboat1]

These are sections cut out and the tool used:

 

[spartonboat1]

Took my cutout sections to Woodcraft on 28th St in Grand Rapids today. Owner says I have 1/2" (nominal) marine plywood, which is 12mm actual. We agree on "Finnish" birch plywood, which has the same dimension, at 1/2" nominal, plus has an extra high grade of glue very resistant to water/moisture and delamination. I intend cut pieces to fit the are where the sections were removed/cut out. I will epoxy in the new pieces at the ends and lower sides; I will not epoxy to the backing board, as it was not glued to it originally.

I realize that the Birch does not match the original paneling. But I intend to talk to Steve at Sam's about buying a veneer that at he says is period correct. With luck, I intend to to cover the entire salon wall on that side with veneer for common appearance. How I apply it remains to be seen.

Will post results, as can.