Checklist for Triple cabin 38DC

[richardoren]

Hi Guys,

Well it looks like I haven't jumped ship yet. I'm lining up while other buyers wonder whether they're really buying. First in line in the waiting list for 2 different boats, each one with its strong points. One will force me to sell a house, but it is way big and will take on any deep blue ocean. The other will only cost the price of a car, and she'll plane! The higher fuel cost would be way offset by far lower purchase/refit/recurring costs.

The small contender is a 38DC powered by trusty 8V53 naturals rated at 282hp. As backup buyer (they'd pen my name in the current buyer's contract if they back out) I'd need to have a quick checklist and would probably buy the boat without a survey.

Before you holler, the reasons are:
- it remains in untampered original condition
- price is really a fixer upper price
- the boat won't need to be transported
- its DDs have less than 4000 hours
- Hatteras electricals are bullet proof
- I'm ready to tackle balsa coring repairs as needed
- Window / Eisenglass replacement doesn't scare me
- I actually enjoy refinishing wood
- she'd have a new lease on life if I restore her

To start with, my checklist is as follows:

- fire up the engines and see if they run under load
- walk the upper decking in stocking feet and feel for soft spots
- inspect interior for water damage
- buy her

Now who's the craziest Mad Hatter online?

Rich

 

[richardoren]

Teensie Weenie engine room under salon floor

The part I really like:

 

[richardoren]

Layout and Improving GPH / Speed ratios

The layout is about as tight as a shoe can fit:

From earlier posts, it seems that with this same engine a 41DC will top out at 17kts at WOT - this boat weighing 33,000 lbs, would it mean that it could go faster yet?

More importantly, my 34DC rides like a hog at displacement speed, weighing only 15,000lbs. Would this similar sized boat at twice the weight (lower center of gravity due to huge DD V8s versus my Chrysler gassers) ride the waves better when not on plane?

Also, might one prop this boat bigger (maybe even with 4-bladers) to bring it to plane at slower speeds? I've heard of this being done successfully on lighter boats, even if at the expense of max speed at WOT. The torque on the heavy 8V53s should be enough to allow for this. One thought is to increase injector size above the stock N50s to allow for better torque (and more fuel use) per rpm while potentially increasing top speed at WOT to compensate for speed loss of overpropping. Wouldn't this help prevent bearing wear from running at too high rpms at length? Or are there other issues (ie increased detonation stress / weakened valves) that should dissuade one from increasing injector jetting?

TIA

Richard

PS. In other threads I've seen posts of 41DC and 43DC owners with 6-71s (same displacement as 8V53s) who report fuel consumption at 9kts of between 3GPH and 12GPH - can they both be true?!?

 

[richardoren]

Simple Question #1

It looks like my post didn't get replies as it was too confused.

So here is Simple Question #1:

What combined GPH should it get at 33,000lbs with 8V53Ns?

Thx

 

[richardoren]

Simple Question #2

Simple Question #2:

Is the start-up time / smoke time test sufficient for the engines?

Minty fresh = 3 to 5 seconds to start + 5 to 15 seconds of smoke
Used but good = 5 to 15 seconds to start + 30 to 90 seconds of smoke
Ready for rebuild = significantly longer than above

Thx

 

[richardoren]

Simple Question #3

Simple Question #3:

The hull is solid FB - any reason to have it inspected (blisters don't matter)?

Thx

 

[richardoren]

Simple Question #4

Simple Question #4:

If I check decks for rot and windows for leaks - what use is a Surveyor aside from adding up grievances?

Thx

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I'm not a big fan of surveys, engine or hull. An experience boater that has a good knowledge of the model he is buying will find as much or more of the problems that the surveyor will find. I did, however, get a hull survey on my boat when I bought her, but that was mainly for the insurance company.

Not everyone can do this. Some are just not up to basically doing their own survey and some have no desire to do it either. But, who is making the purchase? You are. And who cares more about not spending their money on something that is just one big problem? Again, that would be you. The surveyor isn't going to own the boat. He wants to make sure that he looks competent and that he earns repeat business and a good reputation, but that's it.

Many others here disagree with my view on this, but I have found so many things that surveyors never see, that I just don't find them to be worth the expense. When I look at a boat, I know whether or not I'm going to buy it before I have a survey. If the boat is questionable, I'm not going to spend the money on a survey when I may not even buy it. That money is then gone and I have to start all over again. How many times can most of us afford to do that?

The point is that it is your investment and you have feel comfortable with the decision you make. If getting surveys helps you to do that, then get them done. If you don't find them necessary, then go that route. Just remember, that you will probably need a survey to obtain insurance.

 

[MikeP]

I agree 100% w/Sky. I would never get a survey if it wasn't required because I can do it a lot better than the surveyor will. I have never had a survey where the surveyor found something that I didn't. The opposite has occurred every time. Unfortunately, for insurance you probably need one; for financing you certainly do. If I could have paid cash for our 53, there's no way I would have paid for a survey. At least I had and chose the option not to give away money for an engine survey.

It's totally a comfort factor based on your feelings. Don't think for a second that a glowing hull/engine survey will detect that the bilge pump(s) will quit tommorow and sink the boat or (more common) an engine could grenade that same day.

I will qualify my above statements...If you are not mechanical and not familiar with engines then it would be stupid of me to not recommend that SOMEBODY who is take a look at the engines. This doesn't mean they have to be an "official" engine surveyor. THe same is true of the hull; I would (grudgingly) admit that a first-time buyer of anything with multiple systems on it should have a surveyor check it out.

THere is no magic to engines at all and if you can repair your lawn mower engine, you can "survey" and maintain your big 'ol DD whatever. It just takes more tools, a (MUCH) bigger service manual, a LOT more time (and money), and the willingness to do it.

Wow - I started this thinking I was going to write a sentence just stating I agreed with Sky!

 

[rswirtz]

I agree totally, Problem is, the insurance companies don't agree.

 

[Boatsb]

Ricks right. Cant even get liability without a survey.

 

[yachtsmanbill]

I got a "port risk" policy from BOAT US for the 58 for 1200/year PENDING a survey. With notice, I can move the boat to its next berth only. That is I believe, 500K liability, another 500K in pollution control, and 25K to raise the boat if it sinks in a navigable channel/waterway. When the boat makes it home, Ill pull it and get the survey done as they want a survey on the ground.
My '63 36' Roamer runs me about 700/yr with boat us. ws

 

[REBrueckner]

If you need to ask whether you should have a survey, likely it's a good idea...but by no means any kind guarantee. Figure a surveyor will check things out for perhaps four to six hours...then write things up for another hour or two.
If you do it yourself, you can take all day and flip on and off everything on the boat...A surveyor does a good job for the time spent, but since you already own a Hatt perhaps you can do it yourself.

Regarding engines, I've checked them out myself in the past....and for my current 48YF I had a mechanic take a ride for two hours...I just did not know enough to be comfortable sizing up a pair of 8V71TI's....now I have experience, I'd likely do it myself. For engines, I'd recommend an infrared thermometer gun....record temps of each exhaust port, all water points...compare two engines...if they start ok and run clean, with good temps,at correct RPM likely they are ok. an oil analysis of engines and transmissions and genny can't hurt.

 

[Mike Hill]

In the fall I made the trip from Baltimore to Tavernier in the Florida Keys and the boat burned 8 gallons per hour. I have a 1973 38 DCMY with 6-71 naturals. I averaged about 9.5 knots most of the time, but took it up on plane at least once a day for a few minutes. Whwn in rough seas the boat did better at about 12 to 13 knots than it did at 9.5 knots. The engine room is tight, so it pays to be able to move your furniture around easily in the saloon to get access to both sides of the engines and the generater. Good luck with the boat if you decide to buy it. My boat was in need of a lot of tlc when purchased. Engines were fine but exterior was bad. Fixed a few soft spots and replaced or repaired window leaks as needed. Stripped outside of boat, sanded and patched all summer, and had it painted in the fall, 1 year ago. Boat came out great and is a easy traveler.

 

[richardoren]

Great Checklist for Triple cabin 38DC ! ! ! THX

THANKS GUYS ! ! !

With your reassuring words this one seems like it might work out. Current buyer seems to have developed an "eyesight problem" after signing, so it looks like he's having second thoughts. I'll try to spend a couple of days on her if the dream comes true. I'll know in a week's time.

Contrary to boats of the past, the Admiral is starting to dream of this one. She didn't want a fixer-upper until she realized it could spare us selling the house. Funny how they can get practical.

Soon I'll know if its the small boat, the big boat, neither, or both ?!?

It has been hard sleeping for the past several weeks, with one buyer hesitating and surveying like crazy, and now with a second buyer in the throws of doubt. At least I know the 38 footer is a sturdy unit ready for service if taken care of as needed. The big boy is maybe a bit much, but does meet / exceed my dreams of yore. A boat or a yacht - the folks upstairs will likely be making this call.

Thanks again for your help!

Rich
PS. Is the 38 footer a shortened 41' hull?

 

[jim rosenthal]

You need a surveyor for the boat, and you need a Detroit Diesel tech for the engines. A good DD tech should be able to look at the Onan genset, too, if you ask me. You can't get insurance without a survey, and you can't get financing either (I'm not asking, but if that's part of the deal, then you will need it)

Most of all, for the cost of the survey (you're already paying for a haulout to inspect the bottom and running gear), look at it this way; if a competent surveyor finds even ONE thing that legitimately allows you to bargain about the price (I am not talking light bulbs here) OR he finds one serious safety-related problem, he's likely to have saved you the cost of the survey and then some. You'll be ahead. If he doesn't find anything after a competent survey, the peace of mind is worth something.

I am bucking the majority opinion here, I'm well aware of that, but my advice is do not survey your own boat. It requires a lot of experience, which you may or may not have (I don't) and even more objectivity, which is in this situation impossible in my opinion. Get a pro, with references.

One thing more: a good place to find the surveyor is BoatUS. Why? because they like getting referrals from BoatUS. And then BoatUS can't complain about the survey if you decide to insure the boat with them. PLUS, if he misses something on the survey that he shouldn't have, you have some leverage. As in "well, either you refund the cost of the survey, or I'll discuss it with BoatUS and see what they think." I speak from exactly that experience.

 

[richardoren]

You need a surveyor for the boat, and you need a Detroit Diesel tech for the engines. A good DD tech should be able to look at the Onan genset, too, if you ask me. You can't get insurance without a survey, and you can't get financing either (I'm not asking, but if that's part of the deal, then you will need it) ... I am bucking the majority opinion here, I'm well aware of that, but my advice is do not survey your own boat. It requires a lot of experience, which you may or may not have (I don't) and even more objectivity, which is in this situation impossible in my opinion. Get a pro, with references.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for stepping in with the voice of reason. The boat is overseas where surveyors are harder to find (easier to corrupt?) and where DD experience is less prevalent. However, I do plan on having the engines checked out before purchase. The price is bargain basement and probably doesn't leave much room for haggling - sort of an "As Is" purchase. However, I do definitely agree that a survey is very useful in reducing price: my current Hatt's survey paid for itself 3-times over in price reduction.

By the way, did I mention it was going to be a PARTY BOAT ?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

If you expect to get a price reduction because of a few items on a survey, you may be surprised. This should be talked about with the seller and/or broker before you spend money on a survey. I have seen deals fall through because the seller was not willing to come down any more on his price. So, the potential buyer is out the cost of a survey with nothing to show for it.

Don't assume that you will get some consideration for major items that are substandard. Tell the broker or owner when you make the offer that your offer is based on the assumption that the boat is in proper working order without major problems that will show up at survey. Then tell him that if the offer is accepted, you will expect some consideration for anything substantial that turns up at survey. In short, make sure they know that you will be asking for more to make things right ahead of time. Don't get burned.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Where overseas? Also MAKE SURE that if you buy the boat that you can bring it back into US waters. Like- how did it get where it is? Any possibility of it having been stolen?

If you can get the boat's hull number, you may be able to find out whether it was ever documented in the USA, which may help. I would be very careful here; you don't want to end up with 1) no money and 2) a boat you can't bring to the USA 3) a boat which, at least here, may already belong to someone here.

Good luck.

 

[richardoren]

Warning about Overseas Purchases: Int'l Law is "No Man's Land"

Where overseas? Also MAKE SURE that if you buy the boat that you can bring it back into US waters. Like- how did it get where it is? Any possibility of it having been stolen?

If you can get the boat's hull number, you may be able to find out whether it was ever documented in the USA, which may help. I would be very careful here; you don't want to end up with 1) no money and 2) a boat you can't bring to the USA 3) a boat which, at least here, may already belong to someone here.

Good luck.

Hi Jim,

Sounds like you mean something like the one Chris mentioned in my Jumping Ship thread - they never even answered my email where I inquired about its title / registration:
http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=53781&postcount=28