BoatUS Hatteras Trawler Prices

[OBXTucker]

I'm spreading the word and would like everyone's assistance in trying to get BoatUS to retract some significant pricing errors in the recent Used Trawler Market.

Here's a copy of the article:

Below is a link to the article. The 58' is on page 72. The other LRC's are sorted by vessel size:

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/8955e4ab#/8955e4ab/74

Also, here's a BoatUS response to a letter I sent to BoatUS earlier this week:
Hello Mr. Hall:

Thank you both for your recent emails concerning the prices we have listed in our most recent “Used Boat Watch” digital publication. We know that there is a wide variation in the valuations of various makes and models, especially in this market, and that the values published in UBW are only a guideline. In fact, on page 11 of this issue you will find a notice to this effect.

Very well equipped and maintained vessels can often bring prices well above the averages we have listed and my guess is your vessels are in this category. To double check our numbers, I consulted the well respected NADA guide which actually lists the values of this particular model about 10% lower than what we have published in UBW. This information is free and available online at www.nadaguides.com. I have pasted the information on the 1979 model below for your reference.

I’ve also taken a look at what is currently available in this model on the market and found prices anywhere between $345,000 and $549,000! My conclusion is that there is a gap in the data! Thank you for pointing this out. We will endeavor to get to the bottom of it. I am talking with the editor of the Powerboat Guide, who produces this product for us, and will dig into it further. We fully acknowledge there is conflicting information about what these boats are worth in this environment.

Thanks you for your interest, readership and participation in the BoatU.S. community. Please do not hesitate to contact me directly should you wish to discuss this at any time.

Best Regards,
-Elio Betty

CURRENT NADA VALUES for HATTERAS 58 LRC (available at www.nada.com):

1981 $130,000 -- 145,000
1980 $122,000 -- 142,000
1979 $123,000 -- 137,000
1978 $117,000 -- 131,000
1977 $116,000 -- 129,000
1976 $113,000 -- 126,000
1975 $104,000 -- 116,000

Bottom line, they need a retraction. The boat business is tough enough without having bad data in the market place. I can see people reading the article and then quoting it when trying to negotiate....you can probably already hear them coming your way!

 

[OBXTucker]

Here's the guy at BoatUS to contact:
Elio Betty, Director of Advertising for BoatUS Media
EBetty@boatus.com

I'm also reaching out to:
Chuck Husick
chusick@boatus.com
BoatU.S. Magazine Technical Editor

Appears they realize they've received some BAD data, but I'd like to see us continue to pound them for a retraction.....

 

[Glory]

If you happen to be selling a quality boat now, timing is is not good. You are, however, one of the two people who will deceide the selling price. The buyer is the other.

You can always compromise and lower your price or you can let the buyer compromise and raise the bar and pay your price or buy Marine Trader. The choice is yours.

I have never sold a boat for less than I paid for it. Thats not to say I haven't spent a few dollars along the way, Lord knows I have.

Once I've set my asking price that's it. If a quality boat seller, or any seller for that mater, is reasonable the asking price will work.

I would also suggest that you shouldn't worry about the things a buyer says about the boat for sale. If he doesn't like what you have, he should go and have a custom boat built. In the used quality boat market only a few boats come to mind, if you happen to have a vintage Hat the alternative options dollar for dollar are few.

JM

 

[MikeP]

Mags are always wrong about this sort of stuff - from planes to cars to bikes to boats. As JM said, the price will be the price the buyer and seller agree upon. Don't expend the time it takes to say "I'm upset" to be upset about this.

I was impressed with the mags reply - at least they sounded like they considered your input; I'm sure they actually won't but at least they SOUNDED like they would!

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I noticed that when it came out as well. If you think the prices are low on the 58LRC, take a look at the 42LRC. They've got those down to the price of new car. I just don't see any owners giving those boats away at those prices.

It's like they think that the Hatteras LRC is the same as a Chinese built trawler and they have priced them accordingly.

 

[REBrueckner]

An impressive response....someone who actually reads feedback...too bad the government doesn't do that.

It sure makes you wonder how such wildly incorrect data can be published ...they don't have any reason to low ball any boats....typos, listing prices for some other make or model?....sure is strange...

 

[SeaEric]

This is not the first time the BoatUS publications have done stuff like this. None of their price data has any basis in reality. Same with NADA, same with BUC. They all start with flawed numbers and then adjust all in tandem with an artificial factor based upon their impression of the market. It's ridiculous.

The difficulty comes from novice readers that take what BoatUS says as gospel. Would the all knowing BoatUS lie to me? Good heavens, No!

Some of you may know that In addition to being a yacht broker, I also install Flexiteek decking. Last Fall, the BoatUS magazine printed an article that said, among other lies, that Flexiteek can be professionally installed on your boat for $45/sf. In reality, the installed price averages more like $70/sf. It took me months of research to finally find where they got this info. It was gathered from an obscure website from a dealer that also offers to build Flexiteek deck panels for a boat owner's self install. The price printed by BoatUS was his "Do-It-Yourself" price.

This is great journalism.

When a buyer wants your LRC for the BoatUS printed price, ask them if they would sell their LRC for that price if they already owned one.

The market price of anything moves up or down one transaction at a time. To publish a "market value" of any 35 year old used boat is, even on the surface of it, totally foolish.

 

[MikeP]

Well, as they (mag) noted the NADA guidelines are much lower that the prices the mag quoted in the article and NADA is one of the first places a buyer is going to consult.

When we bought our 1980 53MY the NADA book listed the "value" at over 100k below the asking price of the boat so that's pretty typical. As the mag noted, it depends on the condition. We looked at 53's priced (asking) from 95k to 345k. The 95k boat was a wreck-on-the-water but anything over 190k at the time was above the NADA "price" for a 53MY in the late 70's range. However, we didn't find anything under around 240k that we thought we could live with. That doesn't mean they weren't around. We have some good friends who found a really nice '79 or '80 (can't remember) 53MY shortly after we bought ours and they paid 210k for a boat that was easily superior to anything we looked at in the 290-300k price range.

I think the reality is that yes, some person may see that article and go looking for an LRC for whatever the price(s) shown. And he may find one but he won't find one that he wants at that price. As he learns the reality, he will realize that if he wants a nice boat, it's going to cost more.

 

[saltshaker]

It's not just the LRC's. BOATUS, NADA, BUC and the PowerBoat Guide are frequently way off the mark for most brands and models. Looking at Hatteras prices, you can rarely find boats listed for anywhere near what the published values are. Unless every boat sells for about 50% under the asking price, the data is flawed. This has been an issue for as long as I can remember, good market or bad. I bought my 46C when the boat market was very strong. It surveyed for almost 100K over what I bought it for, my insurance Co. insured it for closer to the surveyed value and the owner a a local boat yard that worked on the boat offered my a substantial amount of cash just to let him buy the boat. The NADA and PowerBoat Guide numbers were still below what I paid and BUC prices were over double.

As others have said here, it's only an issue if an uneducated buyer relies on those numbers. The banks and the insurance companies rely on the surveyed value so there must not be too much weight in the published prices.

 

[jim rosenthal]

There is no really accepted guide for vintage yachts, other than the sold boat listings which most of us can't get to. For classic cars, there is the Sports Car Market Guide, there is the Hagerty Cars That Matter guide, and there are a few others. And there is HMN which at least shows you asking prices on comparables.

I haven't seen anything like that for older boats- or any boats, for that matter. As Eric says, the market is really set one deal at a time. This is one reason why it makes sense to have a broker working for you in the transaction (full disclosure, I've done several boat deals with Eric, so I am not neutral): at least the broker can find out about sold boats and may know something about the deal. Asking prices frequently have only a coincidental relationship to final deal prices.

 

[nor'easter]

There is no really accepted guide for vintage yachts, other than the sold boat listings which most of us can't get to. For classic cars, there is the Sports Car Market Guide, there is the Hagerty Cars That Matter guide, and there are a few others. And there is HMN which at least shows you asking prices on comparables.

I haven't seen anything like that for older boats- or any boats, for that matter. As Eric says, the market is really set one deal at a time. This is one reason why it makes sense to have a broker working for you in the transaction (full disclosure, I've done several boat deals with Eric, so I am not neutral): at least the broker can find out about sold boats and may know something about the deal. Asking prices frequently have only a coincidental relationship to final deal prices.

I trhink you are right Jim, but the sold boats data is only as good and honest as the folks who enter it. When I listed my 39 eons ago (sold last summer), I saw the price I had supposedly paid a few years earlier. It was the ask price entered as the "sold" price, when in fact I paid 30% less than that because I had good estimates on what she needed to get back up to snuff.

I am not sure how common that practice is, but that was done a bigger local dealer here in San Diego. Perhaps that was a mistake, but maybe it was to prop up the prices of other like boats on tha market. Call me cynical!

 

[Maynard Rupp]

On the other side of this story, I had the hots for a 42' LRC a year ago. There were several listed for, what I felt was way too much money. I asked a few owners that had their boats for sale and they said that the high prices for these boats were consistant from all sellers. Next I asked how many of these boats had actually sold. The answer was none. So, they all were asking high prices and bad mouthing the numbers that Boat US had come up with, but, remember none of those boats had sold in the last 3 years. Now their prices are coming down. I think that when you have a niche boat like that to sell, and several are on the market for a high price, you need to find out if any have actually sold.

 

[MikeP]

"Next I asked how many of these boats had actually sold. The answer was none."

Well, there it is...if no one will buy something at a particular price then it is not "worth" that price. Something is only worth what someone will pay.

 

[OBXTucker]

"So, they all were asking high prices and bad mouthing the numbers that Boat US had come up with, but, remember none of those boats had sold in the last 3 years. Now their prices are coming down. I think that when you have a niche boat like that to sell, and several are on the market for a high price, you need to find out if any have actually sold."

That's my beef! They ARE in fact selling - at MUCH higher prices than what is being portrayed in the article and on NADA. I know this for a fact because I bought mine 6 months ago - and know of several more than have (or are) changing hands in recent months.

If you're looking at an LRC that hasn't sold in 3 years, it's not priced properly. These boats have held their value better than ANY Hatteras. Some are selling (recently) for what they originally sold for in 1980. That's not to say the market hasn't taken it's toll on their prices, it definitely has. Also keep in mind there were only 55 58' LRC's produced. There's not a huge market to drive the price down, because at any given time only perhaps 10 - 15% are for sale.

Back on topic: There should be plenty of accurate historical sales data to give a realistic value. If they don't have that data, then say "N/A".

 

[sportfish 45]

On the other side of this story, I had the hots for a 42' LRC a year ago. There were several listed for, what I felt was way too much money. I asked a few owners that had their boats for sale and they said that the high prices for these boats were consistant from all sellers. Next I asked how many of these boats had actually sold. The answer was none. So, they all were asking high prices and bad mouthing the numbers that Boat US had come up with, but, remember none of those boats had sold in the last 3 years. Now their prices are coming down. I think that when you have a niche boat like that to sell, and several are on the market for a high price, you need to find out if any have actually sold.

That's right on the money. Yatchworld is literally loaded with boats priced un realistically high I'd say around 85% are grossly overpriced. It's obvious that the owners of these boats don't really want to sell them which is why so many are listed for years.

Seth

 

[MikeP]

Well, we'd all like to believe that OUR boats/cars/motorcycles are worth a lot (and of course, MORE than we paid for them) while the other guy's boat/car/motorcycle has depreciated badly and clearly NOT worth what he's asking.

 

[Passages]

"Back on topic: There should be plenty of accurate historical sales data to give a realistic value. If they don't have that data, then say "N/A".

Unfortunately, that's just not the case. It is in the best interest of the broker to portray current value to a prospective buyer as high as possible. Even if it means artificially inflating the numbers.

The YW sold boat function - available only to brokers - has no auditing or policing, so the broker is free to enter whatever value suits him. Obviously, he'll want to enter a value close to or at the ask price.

 

[whaler23]

I attended the Bay Bridge Boat Show yesterday and can say that the used boat prices looked pretty reasonable to me based on what you see and what you get for the price. Several models seemed overpriced like Riviera and Azimut but many others both used and new looked pretty good like Ocean (yeah I know) and Ovation (Silvertons new high end line) and Marquis (Genmar high end product). I've decided to keep my Hatt based on low selling prices (I have a Series 1 36C) and have now invested a bit of money in making it more livable and modernized including removing lower helm, glassing in windshields, new ac units, new genny, new mattresses, new salon furniture, windlass, etc... The project has been fun and certainly worthwhile while never ever an investment. I do think it's certainly a buyers market out there and anyone looking for a deal doesn't have to go far. If I didn't own my 36 I'd be buying SeaEric's 42' Commander today! A great looking boat and good price. Sorry, didn't mean to plug this boat...

 

[Angela]

The YW sold boat function - available only to brokers - has no auditing or policing, so the broker is free to enter whatever value suits him. Obviously, he'll want to enter a value close to or at the ask price.

That is absolutely true. When we bought Sanctuary, the selling price on Sold Boats was overstated; therefore, that tool in my opinion is useless. They only way to really know what a selling price was is to either be the buyer or know the buyer.

 

[sportfish 45]

If you think about it it's really very simple. If your boat has been advertised for more than 6 months and has not sold then your asking to much for it.