bilge pumps

[lisaann]

how many pumps are resonable, my boat 1968 41c hatteras put one in the bow and one in the stern. i am going to add a backup in the bow since this pump is the primary pump while the boat is in the slip. and a light on the bridge to indicate when the stern pump is running. this will show any pump activity while under way. i plan to also add one in each engine bay total of five pumps. is they way overkill? mark

 

[nor'easter]

Hard to say that anything is overkill for a dewatering system in my book. I am planning to add a 4th higher flow pump to my 39 SX that would only operatee at higher water levels.

 

[Skip]

I have two comments for your consideration:
1. In your largest bilge area, put a second bilge pump about 1 inch higher that the other bilge pump inlet.
2 Put a simple electric counter on your higher bilge pump (read out on the console) and monitor how frequently it turns on. Usually you can spot a trend as the lower pump fails.
Good luck,
Skip

 

[REBrueckner]

You can't have too many bilge pumps.
I have six on my 48 ft YF plus two small ones in pails under the shaft logs that empty into a sump, two more for shower sumps. In addition I have a separate high water alarm system with float switches in six different locations....that way if water anywhere overpowers a pump I get an audible and visual alarm at my Helm stations.

Overkill? well, I awakened one time and found 55 gallons of diesel fuel under one engine...a flex fuel line had rotted through....before I had all the safety alarms and pumps..I smelled it and began a search. With today's regulations detecting a fuel leak is almost as important as detecting a water leak. Two weeks before my incident, in Provincetown Cape Cod, the harbor master told me a guy overfilled his gas tanks...pumped some overboard...presto, a $10,000 fine...

In my case I used a spare bilge pump to evacuate the bilge diesel into five gallon pails, dumped a few back into my tanks (diesel floats on top of bilge water) then in a 55 gallon drum and paid about $150 to have to recycled....

Rule makes a 2" diameter 120 volt pump (Home Depot). I carry one of those for emergencies with 25 feet of flat hose...stores in a small space just in case...It's also a portable aid to assist others in an emergency. Well pumps also would work, but I prefered the plastic case Rule type.

 

[MikeP]

Read this/follow the recommendations and you can't go wrong!


http://www.yachtsurvey.com/bilge_pumps.htm

 

[Pascal]

yep.. this is great article that cover jsut about it.

i currently have 4 rule 2000 (bow, aft, port ER, stbd ER) plus a 3700 back near the bow buti don't think that's enough. I'm going to add at least a 3700 near the stern.

each back up will be connected to a different battery bank... directly with jsut a fuse.

I might also add an another pair of back ups in each ER, for these I'm probalby going to use 12v 3700s connected to the large inverter bank.

Most boats come with insufficient pumping capacity, eventhough bilge pumps are the only one that will keep you afloat or buy you time to find and plug the leak.

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

I have 5 pumps on my 43' wired thru float switches ( 2000 gph each) "1 in front, 1 under each motor, 2 in the stern section.
The boat came with 3, all 1000 gph (not sure original but only have 3 switches on panal at steering station).
Also put in two high water alarms (with 2000 gph pumps) and have a 8000gph Rule pump (paid $270 for it) with 50' of wiring and 50' of hose that I can throw into any location as a backup should I have a problem.
I do not have a 120v pump but as we are liveaboards and the people next to us on both sides are also liveaboards.... If something happens at the dock when we are not here feel safe.
And if something happenswe have a total of 22,000 gph pumping capacity we should be OK..... As long as we can run the genset to charge the batteries !!!!
My figuring is, if water is coming in faster than I have the ability to pump it, nothing I can do is gonna save it.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

It's good to have backup pumps. But the problem is most people don't check the pumps that they have to make sure that they work. I know none of us here is guilty of this, but I thought I would bring it up. Maybe it will help to remind those of us who have been putting it off to reach in there and lift that float switch every month just to be sure.

I checked mine while on the hard and I found a float switch that had shifted around and was getting caught under the discharge hose. I added another screw to hold it in the proper place. Should be good to go now.

 

[luckydave215]

I have 10 if you include the shower sumps, I wish I had more. There's no such thing as too many.

 

[Jaxfishgyd]

Dang,
I forgot to include my shower pumps....

On my check list, the pumps are checked every 3 months.

In reality, every time I'm in the engine room I lift the floats under each engine, which is weekly.

My thing is, I'm paranoid about the boat.......

After working for Towboat/US WHEN I retired in 2000 for 6 months and seeing what happens all the time to others, plus seeing 3 boat fires at docks we've been at, this is OUR HOME and we have grandkids on the boat all the time...

(Remember my post about "wake up... I smell smoke" a few months ago)

 

[ThirdHatt]

I had the scare of my life on the very first day we splashed my boat. I bought it while it was on the hard and I did a ton of work on it before it went in the water. I still had some work to do after it went in the water before we headed home so we just tied her up for a few days on the finger pier about 100' from the lift. The surveyer was there working for several hours to complete the survey that day. When he asked to see the generator room I lifted the hatch and saw the absolute worst thing I can think of on a boat...A FLOODING COMPARTMENT! Yes, there was a good 5-6" of clear blue-green salt water on my freshly painted generator room floor and it was already coming up the bottom of my brand new Northern Lights 16KW genset!! It's all kind of a blur now, but I recall quickly ordering everyone off the boat, telling my father to go and get the lift operator so we can get the boat back in the slings ASAP to save her. Then I jumped down there to see where the water was coming from. As it turns out, when the mechanic that helped remove the old Onan for me had cut the raw water intake hose off the gen and just laid it there without closing the valve! The hose was just laying behind the new gen (that was merely lowered into place at that point, not hooked up yet) just flowing away like a garden hose. I quickly reached down and shut the valve and BINGO the water stopped flowing. This is also not a good way to learn that your float swith has failed on the bilge pump and your high water alarm has failed as well. Luckily the pump switch on the helm worked and the pump removed the water rather quickly to my surprise. The lift operator was ready but I called it off once the problem was found and fixed. The really scary part was that because the survey was not yet complete, I could not get the insurance policy bound! I was going to just stay at the dock for a few days, complete my projects and leave once I had insurance. To think of the financial burden that would have been placed on me if the boat had sunk is almost unimagineable.

Luckily the water had not gotten high enough to get any wiring but it did get the armature wet on my new generator. I was crushed. I knew I would have to get the salt out of there ASAP to minimize any potential corrosion to the windings. I flushed it with fresh water immediately and then I removed the armature and take it to have it baked. They wash it with some solution to remove the salt and then bake it to dry it. I'll take this opportunity to plug a fantastic business with great customer service. It is Broward Armature in Ft Lauderdale. If you EVER have an armature problem, call them. These are the experts. They probably have your armature in stock ready to ship and you just ship them your core so they can rebuild it for the next guy, or if you have time and prefer to have yours rebuilt, they'll do that as well. They come with warranty but they told me that they have never had one come back. I had used them in the past to replace the armature on the Westerbeke that I have in my 41TC and it has performed flawlessly for years since. It's nice to know that you can replace the entire generator end on pretty much any gen for around $1400!

To this day I still see a flash of that horrible image in my mind every time I open the hatch to the generator room.

Lesson: ALWAYS check your thru-hulls and actually look at all of your bilge compartments when you go back in the water.

 

[egaito]

how many pumps are resonable, my boat 1968 41c hatteras put one in the bow and one in the stern. i am going to add a backup in the bow since this pump is the primary pump while the boat is in the slip. and a light on the bridge to indicate when the stern pump is running. this will show any pump activity while under way. i plan to also add one in each engine bay total of five pumps. is they way overkill? mark

I think overkill is a matter of perspective...

My 41C has 6 (OK, one is in the shower sump). Two are in the engine beds, two are outside of the stringers, and then a big one forward, near the galley.

The way its setup, no single compartment can fill very far with water, which came in handy when shaft seals failed (ok, so once it was my fault), and if it runs over the stringers aft fo rany reason, I have 4 good sized pumps working for me.

As far as absolute need? I wouldn't feel comfortable with just two pumps. I could live with one in each engine bed, each of a decent capacity, and one forward, but like the idea that the others are there.

-Ed

 

[egaito]

One more note on pumps....

I do check my float switches occasionally, but got stung twice by another little issue....hoses.

On a boat I was sea-trialing, that hadn't moved in quite awhile, a shaft seal, and rudder log began leaking significantly once we started moving around.

The hose on the pump that should have cleared the water was split, so the pump was pumping it's little old heart out, but was only recirculating the water, and spraying it around the engine room a bit.

It took awhile to notice the problem, which resulted in water coming up to the oil pans on the engines before it was spotted. That boat was a mess all over, and we moved on.

In another similar instance, my RIB, which was fairly new, had been rigged with the white, corregated hose that is so popular in bilge applications. It split at the base of one of the ridges, and when rain triggered the pump (cockpit scuppers drain to the bilge - another pet peeve), the pump ran until the battery died, recirculating the water in the bilge. Fortunately, it's tough to sink a rubber boat!

Lesson learned. Check the hoses as frequently as you check the float switches, and get rid of the cheap stuff!

-Ed

 

[REBrueckner]

I skimmed Pascoe's discussion on bilge pumps and it's good. I think he misses several points worth discussion.

First, keep your bilge clean and free of all loose items,dirt,debris,etc. As soon as water enters a boat stuff floats, sinks and moves around. Aboard a sinking boat it's common to have one person dedicated to keeping any large pump free from clogging. Rags for cleaning, for example ,should never be left lying around..if oily they are a potential fire hazard and are very prone even if clean to clogging bilge pumps.

Second, he suggests wiring directly from batteries to bilge pumps. This is fine but use an inline fuse for protection when you do. Its also easy to mount a fuse or circuit breaker panel in your engine room just for bilge pumps in the vicinity. It's a good idea to rotate fuses in their holder once or twice a year to scrape off surface corossion and keep good contact.


Third, If you have multiple battery banks, use all of them to power your bilge pumps. For example if you have large house bank and a small starting battery, power more of the bilge pumps from the large amp hour supply. That way if multiple pumps are needed, or one battery bank weak, you get the most diversity from your power source. Never power a single pump from multiple batteries, it's a serious fire hazard. (Because if voltage differences occur between batteries, large currents may flow when the pump is activated.)

Last, Pascoe is right about bilge pump discharge hoses letting water IN the boat should she lower during a leak. He recommends a loop above the waterline, a good idea. A better idea or complimentary one is a check valve...even an inexpensive plastic one with rubber flap...if water begins to come in, it will eventually bend the rubber back in place and stop 90% of the water intrusion. The old bronze housing and bronze flapper maybe superior, but are more expensive and maybe more prone to getting stuck.

When I first had my boat, I occasionally got some salt water in my forward compartment. I eventually found that in rough water wave action forced some water up the bilge pump loop, maybe two feet above the water line, and into the boat...never would have guessed that...

 

[Pascal]

i don't like check valves, especially in bilge pump discharge. it's just one more thing to fail and one more thing to restrict flow if any thing makes it to the check valve. and I certainly woudln't trust one to prevent water from coming back it!

adding a 1' to 2' loop is much safer and doesn't restrcit flow that much.

 

[MikeP]

Additionally, I think the ABYC does not "allow" check valves in bilge pump lines. My previous boat and our 53 both had check valves in one of the bilge pump discharge hoses when we were purchasing them. Both purchase surveys (I won't get on my survey soapbox) on my previous boat and this boat identified that "deficiency" as a safety item.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Just tonight I replaced the float switch in the shower sump for the aft shower. I noticed that the discharge line has a small bronze check-valve in it. Considering the fact that it discharges into the port aft seachest, I wondered why it would be necessary. I removed it and checked to make sure it was functioning properly and reinstalled it, assuming the guy before me knew better (not always the case).

After reading this thread I'm thinking removal may be the best plan. I replaced the tiny Rule that is normally in shower sumps with a 2000gph pump to double as a backup pump for the aft bilge in the event that water ever got 8" high or so back there and flowed into the shower sump.

 

[Fanfare]

Don't discount those manual pumps. I have five Whale Gusher diaphram manual pumps in addition to my redundant electric pumps (10, on two circuits--put in after this flood). When you need a bilge pump, you need everything you got! While I was trying to find where the water was coming in (back siphon, bow electric bilge pump. Too many cases of wine for an extended cruise. Now I know.) I had all my original pumps on, and my guests pumping away on the Whale. By putting them to work I was the only one who was paniced. They put out an enormous quantity of water and all ended up with blisters on their hands.

Things have probably changed by now, but in 1966 the Hatteras manual pumps were solid bronze and totally inadequate. Diaphram pumps are more efficient, but are susceptable to debris in their one-way flapper valves. Be sure to put strainers on the intake hoses.

In our case the forward bilge alarm failed, and I was awakened by the pt engine room alarm sounding. By then the bow and generator rooms were fillling and the batteries were in danger of flooding and probably shorting out. A few minutes more, and we may have only had the manual pumps.

As a result of this event, I now have the original set of electric pumps, but now with larger capacity, a second set of collision pumps in each compartment (Rule 3500), and the manual Whale ones. I also made my bow compartment into a separate waterproof compartment. It had shared pumping with the generator room, and I had been unable to tell which compartment had the flooding. Lastly, I added a second separate set of bilge alarms in what were now five separate watertight compartments. Overkill? Not after that morning!

 

[Traveler 45C]

When the water is coming in fast, there is no such thing as too many pumps.

When I’m finish installing and upgrading my de-watering systems, I will have the capability to pump out 26500gph. And I was wondering if this was gonna’ be enough!!!

 

[MikeP]

There's another issue here I have been wondering about. I was planning on adding some Rule 3700s but...

In the 53MY, for example, there are 4 2000GPH (or therebouts) oem bilge pumps (not including shower sumps). 1 in each eng room bilge, 1 in the genny bilge, 1 in the bilge area under the aft stateroom.

There are limber holes between these areas. However, when I was replacing the stuffing box packing a couple of months ago, and not trying specifically to obstruct water from coming in, I found that a considerable volume of water pours in from around the shaft. This volume, which is not really much by hole-in-the-boat standards, was able to overwhelm the ability of the limber hole to carry it forward under the compartmented engine bilge to the bilge pump.

THis led me to wonder. If there was a 3-4 inch hole in the boat, the bilge pump would not be able to keep up. The other bilge pumps would activate as the limber holes transmitted the water forward/rearward. BUT if the limber holes can't move the water fast enough, then the whole system seems suspect. So, if you punched a hole in the bow below the waterline, the genny room bilge pump would be the first to activate. But if the hole is big enough to overwhelm the pump and the limber holes, the boat would go down by the bow regardless of the other pumps.

ALSO, if you put a much larger bilge pump - Rule 3700 - I don't think the sea chest and the output on the side of the boat can move that much water. In other words, without a new, separate output, I don't believe adding additional larger pumps will actually do anything since it will be restricted by the chest/outlet.

THose of you adding 3700's, have you also added additional through-hulls to handle this or am I way off base here with the actual dynamics?