Anchor Questions

[jmagel]

I've read many many previous posts regarding anchors, but could use a little advice tailored to my specific situation. This summer we had a lot of trouble anchoring. We dragged almost every time if the wind picked up above 10 knots. The boat came to us with a 60lb danforth on 300' of 1/4" chain, but a local charter captain said he tried every anchor and only a bruce would hold in the mud of lake montauk (where we usually anchor). So I switched to a 66lb lewmar "bruce-type" claw and we still dragged. I tried backing down harder to set it a little deeper, but never had great results even in a modest wind.

So I'm thinking of going larger, but the next size up is 110lbs -- almost double the weight! I guess bigger is better if we really want to hold, but does anyone know of a source for sizes in between? If not, next question is whether the 1/4" chain and our windlass (Galley Maid BBHW) will be adequate to pull up the larger anchor. If it's a high-test chain, working load is around 2600lbs -- the windlass is only rated at 1200lbs, so theoretically it should be enough (Keeping in mind we are fair-weather boaters). I really only anchor out if the wind is below 15 - 20 knots. Am I way off base on this? I really don't know the physical demand put on the ground tackle with a 63,000lb boat.

Thanks for the help!

 

[dastahl]

1st question is how much of the 1/4 chain have you been letting out?

Skooch

 

[JLR]

Unless I am mistaken, the areas in lake Montauk that I have been in range from a depth of about 4 feet to a depth of a about 12-15 feet. It should not be a problem to anchor in those depths with chain and a suitable anchor.

 

[jmagel]

1st question is how much of the 1/4 chain have you been letting out?

Skooch

Good question. The windlass releases pretty slowly, so it was hard to get an accurate count. I now know the model runs at 35ft p/min, so I should be able to time it in the future. Regardless, I let out a lot and as JLR said, lake Montauk is shallow -- we probably anchor in about 8ft of water.

 

[magnawake]

Yeah something is not right. I have a Fortress FX-37 (danforth type) and it holds well, even in the 40+ blow. I usually pay out a 7:1 scope on my 1/4" chain. I would like to have the extra compfort of 3/8" chain but I havent been dragging yet. In real soft top mud it takes longer to settle in deep to find the harder mud and hold. The engines could just pull it right back up. The fortress digs in so deep it will take some patience to get it out. It may not be good for grassy areas and tidal swings. I bought a Delta 55 plow for a primary so if the wind switches the anchor would reset. No problems so far. Sounds like your not putting enough scope out or not letting enough time pass for the anchor to really dig deep. How long before you notice the anchor dragging? Lots of people are buying Mason or Rocna anchors nowadays.

 

[saltshaker]

Good question. The windlass releases pretty slowly, so it was hard to get an accurate count. I now know the model runs at 35ft p/min, so I should be able to time it in the future. Regardless, I let out a lot and as JLR said, lake Montauk is shallow -- we probably anchor in about 8ft of water.

That would require about 60ft of chain. If your windlass pays out at a rate of 35ft per min then you would need to run it for nearly 2 minutes. Maybe you're letting out much less chain than you realize. Not sure of the exact size needed but 1/4" chain seems too small your boat and anchor.

 

[Bob Bradley]

I speed up the deploy by taking the chain out of the wildcat and letting it slide around the base of the capstan, slowing it with my shoe. You do have to slow it somewhat or it will just pile up on itself and foul if you drop it too fast. I'm sure someone will tell me what a bad idea this is, but it works for me. (Especially when trying to anchor accurately to fish a wreck.)

 

[jmagel]

That would require about 60ft of chain. If your windlass pays out at a rate of 35ft per min then you would need to run it for nearly 2 minutes. Maybe you're letting out much less chain than you realize. Not sure of the exact size needed but 1/4" chain seems too small your boat and anchor.

I think you might be right. It seems like I'm letting it out for a long time, but in reality it's probably shorter than I think. Maybe scope is my issue.

As far as size goes... Is anyone here using a 66lb Bruce on a 60k lb boat? Does it seem sized right? It's within the mfg spec, but they only refer to boat length, not weight.

 

[magnawake]

Good question. The windlass releases pretty slowly, so it was hard to get an accurate count. I now know the model runs at 35ft p/min, so I should be able to time it in the future. Regardless, I let out a lot and as JLR said, lake Montauk is shallow -- we probably anchor in about 8ft of water.

I dont release mine all at the same time. I release it fast at first to get to the bottom then just enough to keep a little tension on the chain making the anchor dig in. I pulled all my chain out the locker and painted marks for 25/50/75/100 feet. If you anchor in say 9 ft of water, you pulpit is another 6' off the water. Thats 15'. A 6:1 ratio would be 90 ft of chain out. That should hold for normal conditions. In a hard blow 10:1 might be better. You should go on the higher side since you have 1/4" chain, like me. I like my chain marks that show me exactly where I'm at with no guessing.

 

[dastahl]

The general rule that I use for anchor scope is . . .
Depth + 8 feet water to bow times 5 minimum, 7 if its to blow a little.
So in 6 feet of water 6+8x5= 70 feet of chain. If I have room I put out more.
We have 1/2 inch chain and 110lb CQR but I want a 135 Ultra when I grow up.

I found its really helpful to mark the anchor line. You only need a few marks that you use a lot. for example if you usually anchor in 10 feet of water give or take a little then make a mark at 100 feet. Its really hard to wait two seconds a foot for the windless.

IMHO your anchor and chain tackle are both too small. But unless you anchor a lot overnight and really depend on it holding, they should hold your boat in regular under 20 knots winds.

Skooch is 110000lbs 58 feet with huge windage. Anchoring is my favorite thing in the world. Enjoy.

Skooch
Chadds Ford PA 5 degrees and 20 knot winds at the house. Skooch is in the shop.

 

[Pascal]

I bet your problem is scope.

First, measure and mark your chain so that you know what you are actually putting out.

8' depth plus 4' to the pulpit is 12' so you need 84'... If thE 8' is low tide, then you need to add the tide which is what... 3' in eastern LI? So you may need about 100'

I ve used Bruce type anchors all over the east cost and Bahamas. Never in montauk but in block, pt Judith, sag etc and all over LIS and I ve never dragged. The Bruce works really well in mud, even soft which will challenge a delta but you need enough scope and the only way to know is to mark your rode.

Personally never back down hard on my anchor when setting. I just gets a little momentum going and the arresting force of the anchor is usually enough to set it nicely.

On a 48, the 66 pounder should be fine, at least to 30/40 kts. I be held up to 45kts with a 110 on a high windage skylounge 70 since upgraded to the 176 pounder which has held me up to a 70kts squall line in edgartown.

 

[Boatsb]

Scope is a big factor. I use a 13lb fortress for a 35,000 lb boat and no chain. 10 to 1 scope in sand or mud and I never pulled it loose. If you dont have a good scope the boat will pop the anchor loose especially with chain.

 

[motoryacht lover]

I have a 1995 54 Viking MY (75000 lbs) and the boat came with a 55lb Fortress. I like the Fortress but in a storm 2 summers ago the wind changed direction and blew with gusts up to 90mph, it dragged big time. Fortunately I was ready with engines running. I then switched to a 110lb Bruce. So far so good but no big tests. Going to the Exumas next summer will hopefully not have problems. I think your anchor is to small for that big heavy boat.

 

[Liberty4]

I bet your problem is scope.

First, measure and mark your chain so that you know what you are actually putting out.

8' depth plus 4' to the pulpit is 12' so you need 84'... If thE 8' is low tide, then you need to add the tide which is what... 3' in eastern LI? So you may need about 100'

I ve used Bruce type anchors all over the east cost and Bahamas. Never in montauk but in block, pt Judith, sag etc and all over LIS and I ve never dragged. The Bruce works really well in mud, even soft which will challenge a delta but you need enough scope and the only way to know is to mark your rode.

Personally never back down hard on my anchor when setting. I just gets a little momentum going and the arresting force of the anchor is usually enough to set it nicely.

On a 48, the 66 pounder should be fine, at least to 30/40 kts. I be held up to 45kts with a 110 on a high windage skylounge 70 since upgraded to the 176 pounder which has held me up to a 70kts squall line in edgartown.

Scope makes the biggest difference and this is the most rigorous explanation so far.

(Water depth + height to pulpit + tide yet to come in) x5

x7 if it is going to blow over 20 knots. More if you can get away with it.

I have a GT54. We occasionally anchor in the Great Barrier Reef and very occasionally in deep (45') water. We use a 100lb Ultra (like a Bruce) with 300ft of 3/8" (actually 10mm) chain.

I have nearly 100 nights at anchor in the last year or so and so far sleep well. Fingers crossed.

 

[jmagel]

Thanks for all the input! If we needed to switch out the anchor and chain I really wanted to do it while we're layed up for the winter, but based on the feedback here, our 66lb Bruce & 1/4" chain is probably adequately sized for anchoring in lighter wind. So I'll stick with it for next season and go ahead and mark our chain so we can really test it with proper scope. Thanks again for saving me some unnecessary $$!

 

[Pascal]

It is really easy to mark the chain while on the hard as you can use th windlass to lower the anchor and rode on the ground and then stretch it to measure.

Personally I mark my rodes in 25' increment. Some do it in 10' but it s a waste of time... I use short paint marks (6") for each 25' and long (12") for 100'. For example 3 shorts is 75', 1 long 1short is 125' etc. I like white paint which is easier to see At night especially from the helm

On the down side, paint doesn't always last very long long when you anchor out a lot so you may need to touch it up once in a while before they disappear completely and you have to re measure.

 

[doc g]

I used wire ties / zip ties to mark mine, They stay on the chain very well , I used a color system also to know how much is out, using one color for the 100's, another for the 200's , 300's. I also used one tie , two ties or three ties marking out 100,200 and 300 feet so that at any given length you just need to drop out to the next marker(50') to know exactly where you are .......Pat

 

[bobk]

Some additional thoughts for you.

Your pulpit is probably 7' above water (my 48 series I is 7'), you weigh a bit more. Mine had 1/4" chain on the boat when I bought it and replaced it with 200' of 3/8" 4G. It required changing the gypsey but that was easy and the old one sold quickly.

I too think your 66 pound Bruce is a bit small. It's main benefit is re-setting reliably in a direction shift, but its surface area is not large for it's weight. I started with a 45# Supermax but it was hard to set in grass so switched up to a 75# SuperMax. Never an issue. The max is the best mudder out there IMHO. It will set at 2/1 but I always test it at about 3/1 and then let out at least 5/1 or more depending on conditions.

Practicle Sailor and others have tested the Max. You might also search the Trawler archives for Capn Will's tests in Chesapeake mud. He actually dove and measured how far below the mud the anchor went.

I use colored cable ties to mark the rode as follows:

6', (just about touching the water so I can continue to look for my spot) 3 white ties

16', (just about touching the bottom in 9') 3 black ties (I bump the boat in reverse at this
point after the anchor settles so the chain doesn't pile up on the anchor.

75', 3 red ties

100' 3 white ties

125' 3 blue ties

Then I repeat the red white blue sequence each 25'. This makes it easy to remember how much is out. About five feet from the end of the chain I put 5 black ties as an alert before the spliced in rode comes out. Cable ties last through several seasons and we anchor a lot and they are easy to replace.

Always anchor with a snubber or bridle to take the load off the windlass. I use 20' snubbers and can add extra weight to the end by dumping an extra 20' of chain over the side. This can be especially helpful in a crowded anchorage where you need to minimize scope.

This anchor can be a PITA to retrieve because it sets so deep and can pull a bunch of mud with it. It can take 5 minutes to break it loose on ocaision and when really stuck, I use a snubber to take the load off the the windlass.

Good luck.

Bobk

 

[GJH]

I'll just add my 2 cents, as anchoring is pretty much the whole reason we boat. Even without cruising full time we were on the hook 50 nights last year. Anchoring is 80% technique. A good deal of that technique is simply patience. When I got my boat, it had a Danforth 60HT as the primary anchor. Used it many times the first month when in the Chesapeake prior to bringing it south. Anchored in many areas known for soft mud. All chain rode. Thing held extremely well all the way to NC. Prior to heading further south, I switched it to a 88lb Delta, which I was more familiar with in dealing with reversing currents, which you deal with a lot in South Carolina and Georgia in particular. That anchor has served us extremely well from New England down through the Keys and islands. Just needs a little more pateince in softer stuff.

I like to power down the chain and let the boat come back on its own without power. Do a gentle and quick reverse once about 50 ft are on the bottom. Then continue to come back naturally as remaining needed rode is let out. Let the boat sit there for a few minutes. (A friend of ours, who anchored out at least 300 days a year when he was cruising full time described his technique as follows: "Let out the rode. Pour yourself a drink.") Then put on the snubber and do a power pull in reverse, at idle throttle. Let off the power just before the chain comes all the way up. See if it holds and pulls the boat around when the chain tightens. Then one more idle speed back down with a few seconds of power with chain/snubber tight. If the darn thing doesn't hold, start over, moving if need be; it's like getting a penalty in football, you don't like it, but its part of the game and you just run the play over again.

 

[jmagel]

Some additional thoughts for you.

Your pulpit is probably 7' above water (my 48 series I is 7'), you weigh a bit more. Mine had 1/4" chain on the boat when I bought it and replaced it with 200' of 3/8" 4G. It required changing the gypsey but that was easy and the old one sold quickly.

I too think your 66 pound Bruce is a bit small. It's main benefit is re-setting reliably in a direction shift, but its surface area is not large for it's weight. I started with a 45# Supermax but it was hard to set in grass so switched up to a 75# SuperMax. Never an issue. The max is the best mudder out there IMHO. It will set at 2/1 but I always test it at about 3/1 and then let out at least 5/1 or more depending on conditions.

Practicle Sailor and others have tested the Max. You might also search the Trawler archives for Capn Will's tests in Chesapeake mud. He actually dove and measured how far below the mud the anchor went.

I use colored cable ties to mark the rode as follows:

6', (just about touching the water so I can continue to look for my spot) 3 white ties

16', (just about touching the bottom in 9') 3 black ties (I bump the boat in reverse at this
point after the anchor settles so the chain doesn't pile up on the anchor.

75', 3 red ties

100' 3 white ties

125' 3 blue ties

Then I repeat the red white blue sequence each 25'. This makes it easy to remember how much is out. About five feet from the end of the chain I put 5 black ties as an alert before the spliced in rode comes out. Cable ties last through several seasons and we anchor a lot and they are easy to replace.

Always anchor with a snubber or bridle to take the load off the windlass. I use 20' snubbers and can add extra weight to the end by dumping an extra 20' of chain over the side. This can be especially helpful in a crowded anchorage where you need to minimize scope.

This anchor can be a PITA to retrieve because it sets so deep and can pull a bunch of mud with it. It can take 5 minutes to break it loose on ocaision and when really stuck, I use a snubber to take the load off the the windlass.

Good luck.

Bobk

Great info here - thanks, Bob. We do use a snubber to take the load of the windlass. I will definately take a look at the 75# max - thanks for the tip.