Air conditioner problem

[Full Moon]

I've got a '41 Convertible, 1970 model. I have problems with a 10,000 BTU split unit for the V-berth and main bedroom. Twice I have found the air handlers/condensors(not sure of the correct term) were frozen in solid blocks of ice. I understand this is an indication of low freon. The compressor unit is about 2 years old but the condensors are antiques. They finally quit cooling completely so that confirmed the lack of freon. My a/c guy came out yesteday with his "sniffer" and found leaks in both condensors. I understand these can't be repaired so I'm looking for replacements. Steve McPhearson is looking for replacements but does any one else have ideas or suggestions?

 

[Pascal]

did your AC guy actually check the pressure?

when the evaporators / air handlers freeze up, it could also be a sign of restricted air flow. It's happened before on one of mine if the mesh filter before the blower was dirty. also, on my 53, both guest stateroom share the same compressor/condesing unit. If i leave one of the air handler off, then the other one will ice up.

They are probably due to be replaced but worth checking. Air handlers aren't too expensive, I had to replace 2 of them in the past year... :-( the evaporators were good, problem was with the blowers but considering their age i was better off replacing the whole unit instead of jsut the blowers.

 

[67hat34c]

you said your compressing unit is in good shape? this is actualy the condensing unit. the evaporator is the unit with the fan. if your evaporators are bad, you can get new ones custome made, we did. Used Ocean Breeze in Stuart, they have web site. Their evaporators are made with stainless housings and copper tubes. We are very satisfied with the units. Best way to have them made is to send him the old units so he can match them.

 

[Pascal]

my experience with Ocean Breeze condensors/compressors hasn't been good. out of 4 16k units (3 years old), one compressor failed after a year and a half, misc. issues on the pressure switches, and they're missing one of the tees needed to check pressure. benefit of the doubt... could have been botched installation by installer but i replaced the air handlers with cruisairs.... this was the original equipment, lasted 30 years... no need to re invent the wheel

 

[CaptainHatt]

I Have a 1968 41 hatt I had same trouble two years back my a/c guy fixed the leak in air handler. I Have had no problem sent. I putted the air handlers out myself they unscrew from copper lines. You might check with another A/C guy could save you lots of money.

 

[Genesis]

Yep - I have a friend who does AC work and he has found and fixed a leak for me before.

But - if I have any more trouble with the split systems they're going to get yanked and replaced with self-containeds in each location. That requires only running power and condensate drain - and gives me three zones (forward SR on separate T-stat).

The new self-contained units are very quiet and social compared to the old piston-style compressors. After 20 years I think I've gotten damn good service out of what I have and am not freaked about the idea of swapping it out if required.

I looked into chilled water but it was stupid expensive and would be complicated to retrofit.

 

[parrott04]

I am not sure of the part thats leaking is it the unit below deck or the one on the walls? Well any way the condenser is below deck and would have a water cooled condenser most of the time they dont leak freon, the evaptor coil can leak but can be repaired depending on the location of the leak most of the time they are in the tubesheet. Did you try to recharge the unit to see how long it would last. If your leak is not real bad you may get by with adding freon once every year or two, if you dont want to repair or add freon I am removing the split systems that I have now and updating to units that you mount below deck and duct out I have found them on ebay for between 850- 1500 for the units. Also if you need something I have I am pulling all the units out my boat to upgrade.

 

[Beckytek]

Genesis

Don't the self contained need cooling water and pump?

 

[jim rosenthal]

Yes, the self-contained units require running seawater to them to cool the refrigeration coil. But they are a lot quieter and they are more efficient because they are not subject to losses in the Freon lines. If my Vberth unit craps out I would install a single unitized system under the Vberth, instead of in the anchor locker where it is now...modern systems with rotary compressors and digital controls are a lot better than what came on most of our boats. Then again, a lot of those units are still working (mine for example) so they can't be that bad.

 

[Pascal]

i m not convinced that switchin from split to self contained would really be an uprade... it's not that easy since you'd have to send sea water to each unit with a dischae thruhull.

yes new units are quieter but a compressor will always be more noisy than a blower...

 

[Genesis]

Sure it is - the water line is not much larger than the freon line, and considering that it does not require insulation is actually smaller in total diameter - it will go through the exisiting holes.

You can run one pump for all units, as is done now on my boat, if you have enough pump capacity.

The advantage of having INDIVIDUAL control in each compartment (which I don't currently have - the forward SR and master share a condensor, and thus you have only limited control in the forward SR) is not to be discounted.

 

[Trojan]

I just had my cruisairs recharged yesterday and they work great. They were both low on freon after setting for 2.5 years. The units are 30 years old. You got to say something good about the units after that record. A friend of mine just installed one of the self contained units. Very quite,works good, But running that air tube was a trip and a half. They also require a lot of air around the unit. Bill

 

[Genesis]

What air tube?

Just put it where the evap is now. The new units are small enough to fit - at least they are where mine are. The possible problem area is the one in the forward stateroom, but I think it'll go in the box in the anchor locker.

 

[Trojan]

My friends unit was complete. You just had to run a 6 inch air duct from the unit to where ever the vent is located. Add water lines and electric. Unit was about 16 X 16 x20 inches. Bill

 

[67hat34c]

I did quite a bit of research regarding ac compressors after Pascal shot them down about a year ago. It turn out that the compressor itself is typicaly a Panasonic rotary compressor, sometimes he uses the Copeland Scroll which is better and much quieter. Cruise Air Uses Copland and Tecumpseh, The Tecumpseh is very noisy and heavy. I believe it is a piston type. Tecumpseh is much cheeper than the other 2. I feel confident that the panasonic is a good one. Most car manufacturers use them. Panasonic is aka Matsushita.

It is interesting to read the web sites from Copeland and Panasonic.


Ocean Breeze uses all stainless construction, and Cupronickle Condensor coil. The main difference is the controll box. Theirs is old school. Use Relay switches instead of computer board. He also uses several thermal overload switches. These can be a PITA but they save the unit. The relay switches may burn out also, although ours have been file. However anyone can replace them and they are only a few dollars each v about 600 for the Cruise Air board. The evaporator cores are first class construction and custome made.

I was very skepticle when he sold us the 20k btu unit that was 120v , the compressor itself is rated at 15k btu. I got spec sheet from Panasonic and it turns out that Ocean Breeze was right, it is possible to get 20k BTU from a 15k BTU Compressor. This is accomplished first of all by the use of water to cool the freon instead of air as your household units do. Secondly Ocean Breeze made the Condensor coil over sized, added a 4th turn to it. Then went to a larger Evaporator, or in our case 2 large Evaporators. The down side to larger evaporator is that you have to move alot of air across it or it will freeze up much the same as a low freon system does, cant use multi speed fan. We made this system custome with one condensing unit and 2 evaporators to save some money. If we went with 2 systems then we could have had what ever we wanted.

To end I believe the Ocean Breeze unit is of the same quality as anyone else. Maybe a litte better than cruise air in the chassis construction. Cruise air uses powder coated steel, Ocen Breeze uses 100% stainless. Also the benefit of having the system completely custome at about half the cost of Cruise air was a benefit.

Benefits to self contained units v split system is mainly efficiency. Self contained unit is not sitting in a hot engine room and doesnt have miles of copper tube.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

I would rather have a water leak in my engine room than in a stateroom as you could get with a self contained unit. I don't need premanately stained wood, bedspreads, or carpet. No thanks.

 

[Pascal]

interesting, thks for the info about ocean breeze, it makes me feel a little better about what i have! do they offer rever cycle now? mines don't have it and i recall their website mentioning electric resistance on the air handler instead, saying it extends compressor and pump life.

you obviously have research this more than i did.

btw, I have a 9k btu condensing unit (ocean breeze), new, never used that came with the boat... not sure why... but if anybody is interested, make me an offer. it's jsut taking space and i'm never going to need it since everything is 16k... half the price of new one...

re. self contained, genesis, good point about teh water hose taking less space than the freon tubes and insulation... and yes, not having them in the HOT engine room is a big plus... still a little paranoid about running all there water hoses all over the boat, maybe less of an issue on sportfish but on the MY that woudl be a lot of hose runs... 2 going up to the salon, 1 to the bow, 1 to the stern, one to the mid stateroom...

 

[67hat34c]

Joe at Ocean Breeze prefers electric heat v reverse cycle. he said there are problems with reverse valve. however he will make you what ever you want. Ours is reverse cycle. we wanted to make sure our 4kw gen would run everything. we used the reverse cycle over winter time and it worked very well.

Compressor failure could have been defective compressor or improper installation by ac guy. if they dont get all moisture out of the line and or other contaminants then this could cause problems.

 

[Genesis]

Running hose around is not that big of a deal. No harder than playing with copper pipe on a split system.

I personally hate the split system design because on the SFs anyway they don't have a condensor for each zone, instead sharing one for the forward SR and Master. This is a crap setup as the two have VERY different heat loads (one is under a deck, the other under the flybridge!) and there is no way to get proper regulation of the temperature in the forward SR. In addition the original design of the condensate drain for the master bites - but that's fixable.

If I have the one in the salon fail it will definitely be replaced with an "all in one" unit. That would free up the space in the ER for TWO condensors to power the two forward areas - mmmmmm... now that's an idea....

 

[Pascal]

on the 53MY, teh A/C is just about adequate and ideally shoudl include a 5th unit for the galley. The forward salon A/C has a vent in the galley but it's not enough with the engine rooms building heat in the companionway.

the only other source of cold air is from the air handler in the forward stateroom, which is just enough to cool that.

at some point, mine had a 5th unit on board... i can see marks for a 3 a/c shelf in the ER. Cabinetry above the fridge has been modified but there is a blanked hole for a return grille. I would install one there again if it wasn't for electrical limitations... I have 3 16k BTU units and the water pump on one 50amp leg, and the 4th 16k unit on the other leg along with all the house loads.

4 units would be too much on one side... arlready I can not run the freedom 30 in charger mode with more than 2 A/Cs and the pump...

does any one have a 53 or 58 with 5 AC units? how do you run them?