Advice on heading south

[spindrift]

I was hoping that someone like Pascal who heads down the ditch with the seasons could provide me with a bit of advice. I am going to be taking a Trojan International 44 (I am told built by Hatteras) express from Newport down to Norfolk. The boat has CATs and cruises around 22 knots. I was thinking of heading out to Montauck as the first day run / shakedown and toping up. I have reviewed the fuel burn charts with the owner and she appears to have a 400 mile range at cruise. Pascal with a good forecast would you run outside to Cape May or slug it down the NJ section of the ICW? The boat does not have a bridge and seems quite stable. I have been out in 6-8 with her and the ride is decent. I would be running at fast cruise when offshore, conditions permitting.

I was planning to duck in at Sandy Hook and go down the Delaware and into the Chessie. With a good forecast is this plan A conservative enough? I have only run large sailboats offshore and am thus not as concerned about getting caught in heavy seas but do not have the speed to outrun anything.

While I am not going on the slower part of the trip through the Carolinas and Georgia, I am told by friends about potential shoaling at points. Do you have any recommendations for the best sites (like this one) that provide the most current ICW conditions?

Many thanks and yes I am smart enough to be scarred by any offshore trip given what might happen.

Spin

 

[Capt K]

Not to answer your questions, but the Trojan Internationals had a relationship with Bertram, not Hatteras. Otherwise, maybe they would still be around in some form. Great running surface.

Capt K

 

[Bill Allen]

I hope to leave Brielle around the begining of nov. with the Hatt. I've made the run both outside, little egg to O.C. Md next day Norfolk, then down the i.c.w.. I'm now in Brielle and undecided wheter to stay outside or up the river and down the cheaspeake. I always seem to take a beatting between o.c. and Norfolk but it's quite a bit faster. O.C. inlets easy and of course the entrance to Norfolks a breeze. So i'm up in the air, go slow take it easy down the bay and my fuel burn will be acceptable but add about three days to the trip or blast outside and burn gobs of fuel. The stuff I take is realtively basic. Coastal explorer on my laptop. ACtive capt, skipper Bob books. May have a few others plus a chart book. SHoaling you'll get that info off Clabourne Youngs site, Plus another I can't recall. In a real quandry call tow boat and ask. I don't draw that much water so I don't have a problem. Watch the buoys as they change when you get near an inlet have a ball and enjoy the trip. Bill

 

[GJH]

Have made the trip a few times ourselves over the past few years. Advice would be to go inside LI Sound, faster in most conditions and many more options bail out points if something goes wrong.

You can't go onside from Sandy Hook, (Manesquan (sp) is where you do that) and I wouldn't advise using the NJ ICW, too shallow in too many places. It is and easy run down the NJ shore with several relatively easy places to bail out into including one Class A inlet at Atlantic City.For most of the trip you can stay very close to shore so the sight seeing is fun too. Cape May is a nice place to top off the tanks. Weather permitting, you can head outside from there, keeping in mind Ocean City MD is the only easy port with services between there and Norfolk. You better have a good weather window and full confidence in the boat.

That's a quick summary; I'd also advise getting a copy of the Waterway Guides, which discuss the outside vs inside trips in some detail. Give your self some time to do this as weather will dictate route and how much distance you can make if any, on a given day.

 

[Bill Allen]

The inside trip below Manasquan can be done with a Hatt, but like any inside trip it will add some time to the trip. Parts can be buggy depending on when you go. A bridge or two but you will have a few spots to anchor up. Another bail out inlet could be Barnaget depending on the weather. There's two anchorages in Atlantic City. Of course the best stop in Cape May is Utch's. Altough you can also anchor up in cape may as well. I'll hit Utch's and then the lobster house for diner. Bill

 

[Pascal]

i always run LIS, then down the Jersey coast, up the Del and down the Chesie.

unless you are are in a real hurry, have a great forecast and know / trust the boat, i dont' think the run from Montauk to Cape May is worth it. And i still enjoy the sights down the East River, NY Harbor and the Verrazano bridge...

In addition to anchoring behind Sandy Hook, anchoring at Atlantic Highland behind the breakwater gives more protection, or at Great Kills. there is limited room at Great Kills because of the moorings but it's doable, if it's blowing there are 3 marinas there

the run down the NJ coast is easy and as George said you can run fairly close to shore, there are a few places to get in if you need to. I never run the Jersey ICW because the 6'+ draft of the boat i run but with 4' draft it's doable if you need to.

In Cape May, Utsch usually has the best prices on fuel and friendly service. Stay close to the breakwater coming in and keep the turn into the marina nice and tight although with your draft it's no problem. It's a little tight for me with 70' of boat to turn in since it's shoals up quickly. an alternative for fuel is Miss Chris Marina, on the back side, in the canal. rustic and limited transient slip but sometimes cheaper than Utsch.

if you go up the del, the canal is an easy short cut but the lower del. can be VERY nasty with short, tall waves esp. when the wind opposes the current.

As others have mentioned, while running off the MD coast saves you some time, there is really only one place to tuck in and it really only saves 50 to 60NM. Again, time permitting i prefer the Del/chesie route. the canal and the Elk river are pretty nice and teh stop at Annapolis is one of my favorite.

good holding in the anchorage although with a boat that size you can get a mooring (they have a water taxi service). there is also cheap dockage at Ego alley if there is room.

In Norfolk, best fuel price is usually Portsmouth Boating Center or Tidewater. Atlantic Yacht Basin down on the ICW jsut past the lock is also very good.

for the ICW, www.activecaptain.com is a great resource (also good just about everywhere) and so it salty's www.cruisernet.net Salty's is more focused on the ICW and the info on shoaling is up to date, although sometimes there are false shoaling reports from folks who strayed off the channel .

I'm just starting to plan my trip down so i havent' looked at all the up to date info yet. in the spring, the ICW was pretty good with recent dredging. shallote, Lockwood, New River, Carolina where all nice and deep. The only issues where at McClelanville (just north of Charleston), the cut just north of the Savanah river, Hell Gate, Little mud River, Jekyll (all 3 in GA). down in florida, Matanza and Ponce are places to take it slow but no problem with a 4 to 5' draft and the worst is Baker's Haulover in North Miami beach.

Hope this helps, any question just ask!

I'm planning on flying up to pick up the boat in Nantucket very early Oct. as the mooring field closes but can't get across the FL state line till Nov. 1st because of insurance.

 

[spindrift]

Dear Pascal, Bill, and George:

Many thanks for your advice on this. Pascal, I agree that the trip through Long Island Sound and down the East River and out to Sandy Hook is the safe play. I also think that that following outside the New Jersey Coast with some bail points is a good plan.

Pascal, I also agree that going up the Delaware Bay and using the canal and down the Chessie is the second safe play.

I am going to leave the boat with its owner in Norfolk. He and another friend from the Yacht Club will take the rest of the way to Hilton Head where they we spend some time before crossing into Florida.

Guys, thank you for stopping me from doing something stupid, going outside from Cape May to Norfolk. I agree with Pascal that taking the Delaware/ Cheesie route is the safe play.

Yes, I too love to stop in Annapolis. Too bad Marmaduke's is closed.. it was great bar. I did get chased out of there one evening many years ago. I hit on a attractive young lady who I did not realize was there with her girlfriend. The jealous and POd lady chased me into the Men's room. I had to go out the window ... but that is another story about some of the crazy things that I did before I was married.

Cheers
Spin

 

[Pascal]

i dont think going outside from cape May to Norfolk is stupid, it really depends on the conditions (weather, time available and boat)... it's really just 6 hours if you're running 20/22 kts so you dont' need a huge weather window.

my schedule is more or less set by the boat schedule... in the fall, we need to be out of Nantucket by late september, very early october since the mooring field closes at that time but can't be south of Georgia before nov. 1st. In the spring, with a monthly slip we need to leave aronud may 1st, but dont' need to be up north till memorial day. and of course, 18GPH @ 10kts vs 85 GPH @ 22kts makes a huge difference... with a smaller boat the difference is not as big and fewer days makes up for the fuel burn, especially if the owner/crew doesn't like anchoring out as i do.

 

[Bill Allen]

My only problem with outside for me (other then my luck with sea conditions) is speed. My 43 is a 14 kt cruise, so it takes a while to make the run from O.C. to Norfolk. If I had a 20kt boat it might be a diferent choice. The run is easy and if you can catch a weather window it's relatively quick. Course running outside and once you comit to it you could wind up laying over in O.C. for your window. But like I said faster boat and I'd probally run the outside, weather permitting. Bill

 

[bobk]

I ran inside from Manasquan to Atlantic City this summer with no issues....just be sure to stay in the channel which you can recognize in the tight spots by all the fishing boats that block it.

Both times in Cape May I found Miss Chris Marina had the cheapest diesel prices and of course has a lower transient price than Utsche's. It an easy walk from there to town too.

Bob
1981 48MY

 

[rsmith]

Going up the del bay and going thru the C+D canal is a lot of backtracking. Its not that bad a run to Northfolk you can always pull into little creek if you can't make it to the harbor. If its blowing out of the north I'd take the outside run with a following sea compared to beating it up the Del bay.

 

[MicroKap]

Not to answer your questions, but the Trojan Internationals had a relationship with Bertram, not Hatteras. Otherwise, maybe they would still be around in some form. Great running surface.

Capt K

Don't mean to steal the thread again. I had a 1985 Trojan 13 Meter express prior to my Hatteras.

When Trojan was owned by Whiticar and based in Lancaster, PA, there was a relationship with Bertram. Trojan only had the International series until 1992, when it declared bankruptcy. The largest model was a 46 convertible, followed by a 43 express and convertible. There was no 44.

The 44 came from Trojan "by Carver" after Trojan was purchased by Irwin Jacobs (Genmar) who also owned Hatteras at the time. The 44 was built at the Hatteras High Point, NC plant.

If you read David Pascoe, he doesn't have many nice things to say about the "new" Trojan.

http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/trojan_440_express.htm

 

[Bugsy]

I just took our 43 ft. Conv. from New York (Great Kills) to Norfolk (Great Bridge).
Obviously, sea and wind conditions dictate. We had 20 - 25 kt. winds but out of the W-SW. No problems with seas 2'-3' reported but I expected bigger seas crossing Delaware Bay. They weren't.

Cruising at approx. 17 kts., we had a nice day to Ocean City, Md. and a short second day to Norfolk.

The second day, winds witched to the east and increased from 15 kts as the day wore on. That did not make for a nice welcome as I turned to run up to the Elizabeth River. But that was only one so-so hour out of a bunch of good ones.

Enjoy the trip.

If weather permits, I will "inlet hop" continuing from Cape Fear to Florida or otherwise proceed s l o w l y down the ICW tracking the tide to cross "trouble areas" at mid-tide or higher.

 

[GJH]

I don't know, I've met too many people who had problems on the Jersey ICW especially below AC. Our own Dan Mapes of this forum did some propellor customizing for his 43DC on that route. We met up at Utsch's. I'd love to run the Jersey inside route sometime in a smaller boat; a lot of it looks pretty. The offshore run on a nice day is also pretty and provides plenty of sightseeing ops.

The Brigantine anchorage at AC is one of our favorite stops. An unusual juxtaposition of the gaudy casinos on one side and pretty wetlands on the other. Taking the Whaler through the various backside AC waterways has been equally "interesting".

 

[spindrift]

Thanks again for the additional information. Pascal, I had a board meeting over the last 2 days with my directors screaming at each other and me. Thanks for advising me that I it is not stupid to go outside (which was my initial inclination with a clear eye on the weather outlook).

I think that you all have all encourage me to go the entire trip. The hell with the board and shareholders, I am going to play hooky!

Spin

 

[captddis]

Going up the del bay and going thru the C+D canal is a lot of backtracking. Its not that bad a run to Northfolk you can always pull into little creek if you can't make it to the harbor. If its blowing out of the north I'd take the outside run with a following sea compared to beating it up the Del bay.

Yup. Delaware bay can be very nasty and uncomfortable.

 

[yachtbrokerguy]

I have done the trip from the Northeast to Florida around 30 times. Your route should be weather related. I have run from Montauk to Atlantic City or Cape May in smooth calm conditions and I have run down Long Island Sound in nasty chop.
Each night check the forecasts (the official weather guess) on the web at NDBC, the National Data Bouy Center so that you can get the forecasts at your destination. On the VHF you will only get local forecasts, on NDBC you can get the foresasts along your planned route. You can also call NDBC on your cell phone and you can get real time conditions and updated forecasts. You have to know the bouy code numbers available on the site before you call. Also remember that wave forecasts are for the average waves, not the highest.
I ran one of those 44 Trojans from Charleston to Fort Lauderdale and later from Fort Lauderdale to the Abacos in the Bahamas and back. It is a differnt hull design than the older Trojan Internationals with the Delta Conic hull of Harry Schoel. That hull was actually designed by the Bertram design team when Trojan was part of Bertram Trojan Inc. which I know because I was selling new Trojan Yachts at the time (1988-1991). Without a flybridge the center of gravity is low and made a comfortable ride in a beam or aft quarter to following sea even when the bumps got a little bigger.