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A/C Issues Self-contained vs Conventional

  • Thread starter Thread starter oldawg
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oldawg

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So the original Lunair unit for the forward stateroom has bitten the dust (bad compressor). Boatyard wants me to replace the whole unit to the tune of about $3k. I am hesitant to go away from the original setup but am considering a self contained unit as the cost is substantially lower. I have read and re-read threads on the subject. For those of you who have made the change, or are in the business, how has it worked out? Who makes the best self-contained unit? What breaks when they break (of course they do)? Are they repairable or disposeable? Can I use my existing pump and run 30' of hose or will I need a seperate water source?

So far I have seen MarineAir, Webasto, and Aqua Air. Is there any other vendor I should look at?

Please enlighten me:).
 
If it's just a bad compressor, you should be able to replace just the compressor. I did that on one of mine and it cost less than half of what your quote is.
 
Now that summer is here and I'm running all of the AC constantly, it was just last night that I told Ed, that I still have no regrets in having moved away from the split system and going to self-contained. I went with Aqua Air since they had some of the smallest footprints, the factory is local here in Miami, and I could buy directly from the factory. The footprint size was important to me because I was installing these in already-existing spaces where the old air handlers were. It took some modification in each location. Overall, the initial conversion was a ton of work to me, but I'm glad I did it.

With the exception of one unit that roars pretty loud only in the crew head (because the unit is sitting right above the ceiling in that spot), I can't say that these things are any louder than the old air handlers were. I sleep in that room where that head is, and by closing the door, it never bothered me and never woke me up. In fact, that one that roars in the head is incredibly quiet in the room it serves. Getting rid of the "all your eggs in one basket" situation has been a goal of mine since one hiccup in the old system wiped out all of the staterooms' AC, and if the hiccup were to be in the pump, then that took out the AC in the entire boat which, in Miami, means stop everything and go fix that right NOW.

I really like the fact that with self-contained, I can install it myself. You are correct that self contained is less expensive. In fact, the prices I was quoted made the self-contained cost less than half than the cost of replacing the split system's equipment, and with the split system, you then need an AC tech to come out and charge the system, unless you can do that yourself and if you do, don't bet that your warranty will be honored once you've tinkered with the system in the manufacturer's mind.

I went with giving each self-contained unit its own water pump - again, back to that removing that "all your eggs in one basket" thing. Now that the initial conversion is done, if I need to replace one, it really is "plug and play." The hard part is over. I was fortunate enough to have enough extra through hulls/seacocks from having removed the salt water heads and replacing them with freshwater Vacuflush, that I had ample access to seawater for each of the pumps. In your case, 30' is a long run of seawater. You'll need to assess your current pump's size and ability, together with how much head you have on that 30' run, and then determine whether it's do-able. For that long of a run, if it were me, I'd opt for give the unit its own pump and seawater access. If you have those seachests on the interior hullside, you can discharge the AC water there. I think every Hatt had those for discharging things like the sinks, showers, bilges, etc. You will also have to add a sub panel for the electric since each unit will require its own breaker. I used the original compressor's 40 amp breaker and ran that line to a subpanel with the appropriate sized breakers for each of the four self-contained units. I had a marine electrician come out and do that - that was the only hired part of this installation.

I look at AC down here where it's really hot as being somewhat of a disposable item. The cost to have someone come out and assess what's wrong and then fix it, can be almost as much as just buying a new unit. My stuff is new, so I do not yet have any experience to speak of in terms of what usually breaks on these. I did have one problem with my 16K unit - after about 20 hours, for some reason, the compressor seized. The factory replaced it and the only explanation I got was that it was a "rare compressor failure." I'm running the crap out of all of these AC units now, and it's nice and cool in here. :) For the first time since I've owned the boat, the two forward staterooms - the ones that don't have any living space above them so they bake in the sun - satisfied their thermostats during the heat of the day. The original system could never do that here. For me, it's been a long-awaited and welcome change.
 
If it's just a bad compressor, you should be able to replace just the compressor. I did that on one of mine and it cost less than half of what your quote is.

Ditto. I would have got a better warranty if I'd bought all new but for the price I was feelin' lucky.

Mermaid is a good brand of all-in-ones and been doing them a long time. I have an older unit on my aft deck that we hardly ever use but the little sucker puts out when it does. The rap on AIOs has been noise and taking up more space in the cabin. Seem to be a lot of happy people with modern units.

Edit: Ang, it lools like we were simul-typing. I think you should mention that yourold "split system" was an odd ball set up compared to what most consider a modern split system. I would never ever consider switching any of my five units for an all in one. You can carry a spare pump for 5 or 6 hundred bucks if paranoid about that. My last one worked for 30 years until killed by an OS problem (Operator Stupidity), so I sold my spare to Tim Powell. It's a very easy switch out on my boat, if worse comes to worse. It is also considered a "mission critical" system in the summer here in NC.
 
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Last year at the Annapolis boat show I was talking to several ac suppliers - just as a matter of curiosity. They all agreed that there has been a lot more techno-advancement in self-contained units as opposed to the split systems which are - according to one guy, "still pretty much 30-year old designs." I haven't done any serious looking at AC because (knock on wood) the oem units are still working fine but I thought it was interesting to hear the view that much more company "work" is being done on developing efficient self contained systems as opposed to any advancement in the splits.

We have casually been considering adding a self unit to the back deck area but haven't really pursued it at all so far.
 
I m considering a switch to self contained but for the saloon where compressor noise isn't a big deal... Yes, the newer self contained are pretty quiet but still a bit louder for a stateroom.

30' is bit long but many 40 / 45 footers use a self contained up front fed from the pump located in the engine room all the way back. The big issue will be to run the hose over that distance

I think the reason why more improvements have then mad to self contained is that noise is more critical and the need for smaller foot print is critical in the smaller boats they are usually installed on

You won't have to add a sub panel as Angela mentioned since the existing breaker can be re used. In her case she was replacing a single modulating unit with 4 self contained and needed 3 more breakers.

Speaking of modulating units like what hatteras used in the 80s, I recently realized that cruisair was still making these, with updated technology of course. Angela, Steve's boat uses a modulating for the staterooms (59 marquis)
 
30' is just a guess. The boat is only 52'.
 
Speaking of modulating units like what hatteras used in the 80s, I recently realized that cruisair was still making these, with updated technology of course. Angela, Steve's boat uses a modulating for the staterooms (59 marquis)

What's on Steve's boat is not the same unit/system as Hatteras used on the 58C and 58MY back in the day. While the modulating condensing unit can still be purchased from CruisAir (at least it was still obtainable about 6-7 years ago when I replaced mine), it's a special order because that's not what today's modulating system is. Thomas Marine made that mistake when they first replaced my modulating unit with one of the "new" modulating units and it never worked right. They had to go back to CruisAir and have the plans for the old one dug up and fabricated. Who knows how long they will still offer to do that - another reason to ditch that pain the ass system I had. By the way, is it still Steve's boat? :)
 
Well it is a different design with a valve block mounted on the condensing unit.... Probably not compatible with the old system but it s the same idea: a single compressor for multiple air handlers with modulating valves.

Still his boat for a few days, I understand buyer are accepted the vessel, now pending closing. Survey was pretty clean, no surprise there...
 
I am with Ang on this. If one of my systems went down (and one is original to the boat, 1971, so every season on it is a gift, it owes me nothing) I would put a self-contained unit in. They are more compact and quieter with rotary compressors; I can hear it pretty much anywhere on the boat when my old York-type compressor units kick in. There are enough discharge through-hulls that I think the seawater piping could be made to work well. Mind you, my boat is much smaller than the ones you are talking about- one thirty-amp 120vac shore line runs both AC units.

On a related topic, I heard the other day that AC manufacturers are no longer recommending an inside strainer on seawater intakes. Anyone know anything about this? I still have one, with no plans to change it.
 
I just dont know why the manufacturers still make the high priced split units when the much cheaper self contained are better in every way.


If I had a split system that was running after 40 years I would think it was a POC too. I don't know of any of the new self contained systems lasting as long as some of the split systems but then again they are not that old.

They make both kinds for different needs. If price is the determining factor or the ability to install it yourself and not pay an installer than the self contained unit is for you.
 
Is there a difference in the component parts of the self-contained vs conventional units? I just don't understand why they are so much cheaper.
 
Is there a difference in the component parts of the self-contained vs conventional units? I just don't understand why they are so much cheaper.


maybe they are not the same
 
Economy of scale maybe? Self contained are pretty much the norm on boats up to 45/50 then when you get around 70 chilled water system become pretty much standard resulting in lower production numbers for the splits?
 
"then when you get around 70 chilled water system become pretty much standard"

Is that right? I had no idea but that would explain the lack of interest by manufacturers is the type system our boats use. I had just assumed that the split systems like ours were still "normal" for boats of our size. Shows you what I know about boats newer than 1980! ;)
 
Anyone ever put a self contained unit under the flybridge helm? My saloon air handler is located there since the FB is on top of the saloon. To convert to self contained, I'd have to run seawater lines up there. There's not a lot of space to get the lines up there. Just about all the space is taken up with wiring, steering hydraulics, and shift/throttle cables.

The Mochi Craft Dolphin 44 at our dock has a chilled water system. A voltage surge took out all 4 of the chilled water control valves last year. Expensive little devils to replace.
 
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"then when you get around 70 chilled water system become pretty much standard"

Is that right? I had no idea but that would explain the lack of interest by manufacturers is the type system our boats use. I had just assumed that the split systems like ours were still "normal" for boats of our size. Shows you what I know about boats newer than 1980! ;)

Well yes they are still standard ink of our size but the 50 to 70 market isn't that big anymore. The volume is in the smaller boats


Yes you could put a self contained on the FB, if you do using a dedicated pump is a must otherwise it it will one hard to balance water flow due to the head
 
I don't think the components are exactly the same. The split systems lose efficiency somewhat because the refrigerant warms up a bit going through the piping on the way to the airhandler. I think the compressors in split systems are larger as a consequence.

I started looking at these last night on line as this thread had piqued my interest. Marine Air Systems is making self-contained units with composite (they look like FRP) bases- I haven't seen that before. Clever, as they can't rust. Also probably cheaper than SS. From the amperage ratings, they look more efficient, too, as they seem to draw less power.
 
I don't think the components are exactly the same. The split systems lose efficiency somewhat because the refrigerant warms up a bit going through the piping on the way to the airhandler. I think the compressors in split systems are larger as a consequence.

I started looking at these last night on line as this thread had piqued my interest. Marine Air Systems is making self-contained units with composite (they look like FRP) bases- I haven't seen that before. Clever, as they can't rust. Also probably cheaper than SS. From the amperage ratings, they look more efficient, too, as they seem to draw less power.

Then, assuming the quality of the components is similar, the self-contained units would actually be the better way to go from the start? I plan on speaking with the yard today (they are a CruiseAir dealer) and will report what they say.
 
Anyone ever put a self contained unit under the flybridge helm? My saloon air handler is located there since the FB is on top of the saloon. To convert to self contained, I'd have to run seawater lines up there. There's not a lot of space to get the lines up there. Just about all the space is taken up with wiring, steering hydraulics, and shift/throttle cables.

The Mochi Craft Dolphin 44 at our dock has a chilled water system. A voltage surge took out all 4 of the chilled water control valves last year. Expensive little devils to replace.

I know a 34C that was done this way ran the water up the back corners of the bulkhead return was center of the ceiling and the output was above the window blowing down each side. Worked nice but I felt got in the way when working under the dash.

For self contained I really like my Marinaire has a sound shield on the compressor so you can not even hear it kick on all you hear is the air movement which any unit has. Also built in high and low pressure gauges and s.s drip pan.

I am in the middle of putting separate pumps on my two unit I agree with Angelia should have done this the first time but I listened to the A.C guys and went with one pump :p
 

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