60' Battlewagon

[Maynard Rupp]

I have a doctor nephew that is looking at a 1978 60' Hatteras convertable. They all seem to have 650 hp 12-71 Detroits. Does anyone have any thoughts good or bad about these monsters? The prices sure vary. Are the engines tough or hand grenades?

 

[Freebird]

I too have looked at boats with the same powerplants. I'm no expert, but from what I've been told, this package is fairly reliable and at the mid-range of the horsepower rating available. Average life expectancy is about 2,000 hours based on info I received.

 

[captddis]

One of the best models Detroit made. At that horsepower very reliable.

 

[jim rosenthal]

Based on Karl's previous posts, I would say that they ought to be reliable at that rating. And slow. If he doesn't mind that, he should be good to go.

 

[Boss Lady]

12v71s are solid engines, and these are conservatively rated, and are not hand grenades, however there are some issues with the style of turbo chargers on the earlier ones, nothing catastrophic but you must keep an eye on them and they will give you good service. This low HP in that size boat means it will be slow, even at WOT, if you can live with the speed then you can have a great boat. The reason that prices are all over the board, is condition, condition, condition. If a boat is well maintained and in pristine condition it will command more money. Like I have said before there are three kinds of maintenance: Preventative, Scheduled, and Deferred. Every boat has some deferred maintenance. Most of us push the envelope on things so we don't go broke. If you find a boat that has had a lot of preventative maintenance it will be a cream puff, a knowledgeable and experience boater will appreciate the built-in value. This is also extremely rare. Most boats have too much deferred maintenance, and the value should reflect it. Do not make the mistake of underestimating the cost of "catching up" on maintenance. It is a pay now or pay later, but you will pay, and you can really screw yourself with too much pay later, it is better to head some things off "before" they become problems. If you don't have the knowledge and experience, then hire a professional surveyor and get an accurate picture of the condition of the boat and an estimate of how much it will cost at a boat yard to have the work done to bring the boat up to snuff. That cost should come off the price of the boat. Also you should decide what you want to do, go boating or a project to work on. I suggest that you locate and buy the best condition boat you can find, believe me, you will still have plenty to do.

 

[luckydave215]

The prices are indeed all over the place, and so is the condtiion. Look hard, don't scrimp on the effort. There are some nice ones, just not most of them.
It took me 2 years to find "the right one"............but maybe you'll get lucky a little sooner.
650 horse 1271's run a long time. 900 horse examples are more suseptible to misuse. Ask the owner how he runs them, and LISTEN to what he says.
Don't automatically discard thoughts of owning the high boost models, but remember, you have to run them carefully if you want them to last.
It you're the kind of owner that constantly leans on the throttles to make sure they won't go any further, buy the slow ones, or be prepared to pay, pay, pay.
btw, I see 20 knots more or less at fast cruise (without running them over 1950) so they're not all that slow.

 

[spartonboat1]

Perspective from a 6-71 owner...

650 hp from those 12-71's is 325hp per 6 cyls. Since the very long lived 6-71N's are rated at 310hp, it seems to me that 325hp/6 cyls is conservative and would have a long life.

I now have a fetish about posting in response to speed remarks, since I run the 43'MY which is "slow" with the 6-71N's, but plenty fast in a blow.

The 20 knots above might seem slow by todays 'go-fast' boat standards. But on the Great Lakes I'll bet you could run at full cruise into 7-9 footers at those 20 knots in the 60' b-wagon. No one else will be able to run with you, unless its another Hatt of similar size. In fact I suspect you would be the only one out there. This would esp. be true if you got caught in 10-12' seas...I would bet you could go in the 60', although less fun quotient than desired. I have only been the 10-12' seas once or twice, but that was on a 118' yacht without stabilizers...roll, roll, roll your boat... and I did get sea-sick first time ever. I know you'd be all alone under those conditions.

See the post on the charter boat that ran 100,000 hours with 12-71's, but with good maintenance and no hot-rodding.

 

[StratPlan61]

Maynard,
As I have replied before to 12V71TI inquiries, I have been very happy with mine. I have approx 2300hrs on them and they smoke for a few minutes on start up but they run great. I tend to baby them, usually cruising around 1500rpms. I have run them up to 2250rpms but you use a lot of fuel for a few more mph. Besides I enjoy the slower pace, usually running around 13knts. Mine burn 1.5qts of oil per engine running 12hrs per day. Seems reasonable to me for older engines but I am no DD mechanic either. Mine are pushing 90,000# of MY with 32"x32" props.

Bear'
1984 61' MY Strategic Plan

 

[Tawney1]

We have 650hp, 12-71Ti's on our 61'MY. They have respectively, 4300 and 4500 hours on them. They usually cold crank the first time, most everytime, in warm weather, and with the block heaters have done so, thus far this fall. They burn oil (3/4 to a gallon), and about a gallon of coolant each on an 8-10 hour cruise. The problem with them is that they smoke like a coal-fired locomotive (upper rings are failing) most of the time. I was told by Bob Sacks, Sacks Diesel in Miramar, FL (who surveyed them) that we could get a good deal more mileage out of them if we wanted to put-up with the smoke.
We are going to have them rebuilt in January.

 

[Ross Macdonald]

We have had a 60EB for five years with the 650HP 1271s and they presently have 3240 hrs. on them. We run at 1450 RPM with a 24 GPH fuel burn on the floscans. That gives us 11 knots. We have oversized stabs on the boat which, I'm sure, costs a knot or two. On a 3,000 mile, 8 month trip to Mexico a year and a half ago, these engines used a quart of oil every 20 hours of running time. We just had an engine survey done in preparation for another trip to Mexico and they surveyed out in good shape. You are correct in that the 650 HP engines will not give a 95,000# boat alot of speed. But with almost 1600 gallons of fuel, at 10 knots she's got range. Hope this helps. We will be leaving in 4 weeks and I will try to post our progress when I can....

 

[Genesis]

Its going to be a slow boat but that's a very conservative power rating and if they're in decent shape I wouldn't be unhappy with them at all.

The "all over the place" pricing is people being stupid. Nobody wants a 60' Battlewagon that won't turn up upper 20kt cruise speeds anymore. This boat will only get there iwth a full-on hurricane behind her - with a full tower and a spinnaker flying from it!

But, with the fuel capacity you've got she's got legs, just long and slow ones.

So if that's your style of getting there and enjoying yourself, heck yes I'd go for it. I believe you could see 4,000 - 5,000 hours out of these before a major IF they're run a lot (no chance for upper-cylinder corrosion to get going from sitting) and operated reasonably, with good maintenance.

 

[luckydave215]

Karl, the "all over the place" pricing is because the condition of these boats is "all over the place" at this point in their life, not because the buyers are idiots.
Many (most) have been used by wealthy hard core fishermen, who run the hell out of them, don't fix anything, and then just buy something new next year. Remember, these were the battlewagon par excellence when new. A toy of this magnitude is merely disposable for such men, and they all own 40+ knot boats now.
Finding one that has been loved instead of thrashed is getting to be like finding a needle in a haystack, but they are out there.

 

[Ross Macdonald]

Karl.. also a little different style of fishing out in Soouthern California. From what I hear, boats on the East Coast have to run 100 NM or more to fishing areas and usually do so at speed. Out here there are alot of good fishing areas close and alot of trolling. Any large tuna, wahoo and large marlin fishing is in Mexico, and all of the long range travel to these spots is at 10-11 knots. There is a 54 Bert hauled out just behind me at the yard, and the owner just dropped a pair of new C-18 CATs in her. It should cruise in the low 30s. But he's headed for Mexico and will run at 10 knots to conserve fuel. I would agree that having that kind of speed available is a great thing as long as you have the money to pay for the fuel.

 

[thoward]

From what I hear, boats on the East Coast have to run 100 NM or more to fishing areas and usually do so at speed.

They only need to do that in the Gulf. We are in 1500' with in 20 miles. We do see lots of people clear the inlet and hammer down to that "special" spot but it is not necessary.

What I have found is we can hit 9 knots fairly easy but the next 300 rpm only give another knot or two and lots more wake. We can troll at 1400rpm doing 10-12 knots and be ok on fuel usage. Put it on plane and we get 18 knots at 1900-2000rpm. This is with 825hp, and from what I have read the 650hp is about 2 knots slower.

Dave is right about condition being a BIG factor when you take in mind the cost/size.
$72k for MOH
$30K for 2 25kw generators
$100k for paint
We have not made it to heads, davits, winches, pumps, electronics, rigging, interior upgrades, and any one of 5 air conditioners.

Prices run from $150k to $800k and as you can see you can drop some major coin in a hurry. A smart buyer can look through the smoke and mirrors and find a deal if he/she has the time.

 

[Boss Lady]

Part of the problem of making a big Hat go fast is that there is almost no real planing surface, if you want to go fast it takes big HP to push the boat through the water, or you have to change the hull shape to a true planing hull form so that the boat actually gets on top of the water, but then you have to give up the rough water capability. The heavier the boat, the lower it sits in the water, the more wetted surface area that creates drag. The HP requirements become exponential to go faster, e.g. twice the HP does not produce twice the speed. Water tension drag is enormous compared to air. Everyone has probably lost a boot to the suction forces walking around in a muddy area. Also, water is heavy and we have to push it out of the way, the faster you want to go the more energy that is required to do so. This is what we are up against. So just be realistic about the performance part of the equation. The nice thing about a Hat is that it will still go 18 knots even in big seas and you probably won't spill your coffee.

 

[Genesis]

Well, Gigabite did 18kts into 6-8s with some 10s and 12s thrown in for nastiness, and I won't tell you that I "liked it."

But we broke NOTHING, and the salon was not rearranged, nor was the galley. I didn't need a kidney belt either, but I DID need foul weather gear - it got darn wet up top.

I wouldn't do this sort of thing on purpose, but when you get caught, you get caught.......

What 'ya figure the burn is on those 12s at 18kts in the 60? Maybe 60-70gph?

 

[luckydave215]

Fuel burn

Hey, it's a big expensive boat.

"If you want to play, ya gotta pay............."

 

[Tawney1]

On our trip in August from Ft. Lauderdale to New Bern, with daily ocean cruising at 1800 rpms (wanted to keep the turbos from kicking in too much), in varying sea conditions from almost mirror calm to 4' -5' quartering seas, over 6 days, our speed varied between 14 to 17 knots, and our fuel burn averaged 48 gph.

Paul

 

[MicroKap]

Coming up from Florida, my 12V71TIs (650 HP) were burning approximately 57-60 gallons per hour. The captain brought it up to NJ in four days from Fort Lauderdale, stopping for fuel in Jacksonville, FL, Beaufort, NC and Atlantic City, NJ. He cruised round the clock except for staying over the last night in Atlantic City. He said that the ride from NC to NJ was a little tough with about 8 hours in 6-8s and a bunch of 10s, but the boat was the best handling boat he has ever captained. He said that from small open boats to 140' motor yachts, it was the most predictable in the way it rode and responded to steering and throttle.

I've experienced similar results for gph as noted above. My starboard engine has over 3,000 hours. My port engine has over 1,500 hours. The port engine had been replaced after 1,500 hours when there was a mechanical failure. This was reported to me by a previous owner. The balancing wheel on the forward end of the engine apparently flew off. I'm sure that was not a good thing.

The engines do tend to smoke until warmed up, unless the block heaters are used. Minimal oil is burned.

My persistent issue is that the hydraulic lines for the shifts and throttles tend to lose pressure and I can't find the leak. Apparently, the previous owner that I spoke with also dealt with this issue and spent $$$ to determine where the leak was, but never found it. He just kept using the air compressor to repressurize the systems.

After taking a tour of the Viking Yachts plant yesterday and boarding their 64 and 68 Enclosed flybridge convertibles, I like my Hatt even better, even though I'm cruising along at 17 knots (16 with full fuel), compared to their 30 knot cruise. They are burning well more than twice as much fuel as I am per hour, but not doing twice the speed. I'd rather cruise slower and enjoy the ride. It's the whole experience that I look for, not just the destination.

 

[thoward]

Larry I had the same issue with a shifter...I rebuilt the slave and bam it holds psi