53 ED - Question On Repower/Regear/Reprop

[jlightonjr]

I am going to throw this out there for comment, I am rather new to this forum and have been blown away with the amount of information we all have regarding the boats we love.

I have communicated with Sky and Byron two of our 53 EDMY owners and am kicking off a search for a 53ED (not in a huge rush) and have some questions on what kind of speed (realistically) we could expect if we put in new gears and props on a 53ED.

Give this guy some education for example:

Standard 871’s or 692’s with new 5 blade wheels over the standard 4 blade props

871’s or 692’s with new gears and wheels

Repower – anyone out there repower with a newer engine, gear, prop combo?

Clearly this is just-for-fun as I am fine with cruising at 15/16 knots, did it for years but since these are such fantastic cruising boats I am curious to gather your thoughts on propulsion tweaks.

Warm Regards,
Jack

 

[thoward]

You can do the calculations on boatdiesel.com

 

[Freebird]

Jack ole' buddy,

I too looked at repowering my 58, but I came to the conclusion that the engineers at Hatteras knew what they were doing when they chose particular powerplants for the boats they built.

Granted, diesel technology has come a long way in the past few years, but I for one would leave the boat alone as to repowering it. There was a lengthy discussion on this subject, something along the line of old Hatt values, check it out.

 

[jlightonjr]

I hear you loud and clear on the Old Hat Values, this is what is bringing us back to the 53, we could go pick up a 20+ knot Ocean Motor Yacht but it's just not near as solid.

Our thought is that there is something that may allow the boat - the standard set up to run more efficiently - save on fuel and perhaps gain a knot in the process…

or when it is time to rebuild the transmission go with a newer model with a more efficient ratio and new props...

My thinking is that someone on this forum has though about this or actually done some work to their boat?

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Jack,
I have seen one ED that was repowered with Yanmars. It was for sale a few years ago by a broker out of Miami. I emailed with questions, but never received a response. The problem with a repower is getting the old out and the new in there. There are no access hatches in the floor and the PH seat and wet bar/entertainment center are right over the top of the engines. You have two options and they are both bad. The first is to rip all of that stuff out and cut in hatches to pull the engines up into the salon and out the back doors. The second is to cut a hole in the side of the hull.

As far as new props/gears, I don't think you could gain much. Horsepower is horsepower and you only have about 900hp there to push 55-60,000lbs of boat through the water. I cruise at 15-16kts and top out at 18, but that is the limit. I would think you might be about to gain another knot or so, but I doubt the expense would justify new props/gears. You already have 2:1 gears and 4 blades that are close to max diameter. What do you think would be better? 5 blade Veems at 3:1? If so, I'm not sure you have the room to go big enough. But, hey, I could be wrong.

 

[Freebird]

Wow! Sky, please don't take this the wrong way, but I thought you made statements to the effect removing the engines on a 53ED was fairly simple by removing the hatches and that cutting the hull would never be necessary. Maybe I misunderstood.

PLEASE, this is not intended to start a personal debate, but I am helping another member in locating a 53ED (as you may well know) so I would think a little clarification from an owner of a 53ED, such as yourself, may be in order.

 

[jlightonjr]

Sky,

All very good points, thank you for the insight, the more I think about it the less a repower sounds like a smart move

Warm Regards,
Jack

 

[Freebird]

I hear you loud and clear on the Old Hat Values, this is what is bringing us back to the 53, we could go pick up a 20+ knot Ocean Motor Yacht but it's just not near as solid.

LOL "Flexible Flyers" are not the way to go re the Ocean!

Somebody was bound to say that, and I wanted to be the first. Sounds like you are of sound mind about sound boats, so I won't digress any further on that subject.

I am certainly not the one to ask about repowering a 53, but I do know for a fact you are going to drop a butt-load of money to do it especially if you plan to change gears and props etc.

My advice would be to simply look at another boat that does not have to be revamped to the point you are talking about. I don't know what the heck that would be unless you just move up to a newer Hatt, a 54ED perhaps.

I haven't looked at pricing on those lately, but I would think you would have to consider one based on the price of the 53ED along with the cost of the improvements(?)/modifications and see how the two stack up.

Just two cents from a guy with a wooden nickel!

 

[MikeP]

I don't think you can get any useful speed increase out of a 53MY/EDMY. You have around 900HP to work with, that's it. Just like moving anything, it takes HP to do it. If you want to go faster then you'll have to increase the HP. It might be possible to pick up 1/2 knot on any particular boat by optimizing everything but it won't end up any faster than the boat was when delivered. In fact, lot's of folks have derated the boats by dropping the pitch of the props slightly from oem. so quite a few 53's probably won't go as fast as they did when Hatt delievered them - though the engines have an easier life and better longevity.

Based on CALM water our 53MY will cruise at 15 Knots with about a knot or knot-and-a-half left for WOT. The guys that claim 19K wot out of 'em on Yachtworld either have really bad memories or were being towed behind the Nimitz. With normal load, plenty of time but only 1/3 tank of fuel and maybe 1/2 tank of water I've gotten her to 17.7. But her usual max with everything on board and full tanks is around 16.5. I have to admit that at 15K with the tabs full down, she has a nice, smooth ride that really amazes people in general. But to run at that speed for extended periods as a normal cruise is, in my mind, too close to WOT for any kind of engine longevity. Basically, I look at the turbo-motored 53MYs as displacement cruisers that can operate at 15-16 if you need to do so for some contingency.

Frankly, I think that if a 15-16 knot normal cruise is an important requirement, other boats may be a better choice.

This added after posting: OOPS while I was writing this three other responses were written that covered pretty much what I said.

Re engine replacement - the 53MY has hatches and the engines can be pulled up through them into the salon. I've had my hatches - well, one of them anyway - open. THe 53EDMY has a separate pilot house and, it doesn't look to me as if the hatches are accessable because of the wall between the pilothouse and salon. At least that's the way it looks. Sky, is that correct?

 

[DLCameron2]

Gentlemen:

There is a 1984 53ED with 3:1 Twin Disc Gears and 8-71 TI's (435HP) I believe. It is called Ariel and is currently located in Philly (I think). This boat cruises at 17 knots with the corresponding fuel savings. My long range plans include going to 3:1 (even the Allisons can be converted to this ratio); Twin Discs are readily available but the rear engine mounts have to be redesigned. The issue is the shafting material. The diameter we currently run in Aquamet 22 will not handle the torque with the 3:1 gears and a 54" pitch X 28" Diameter wheel. So there will need to be marine engineering work completed to ensure that thinwall cutlass bearings and a slightly larger diameter shaft made of a tougher material will suffice. I know of a 56MY that completed this modification at W.C. Beardslee on Harsens Island cost = $60K. Top speed close to 26knots. The things to look out for also include strength of rudder posts/shelves and stabilizers which are rated for 21-22knots.

My 2 cents.

DC

 

[MikeP]

26Knots with oem HP?

It sounds completely impossible. Changing the gear reduction to 3:1 and putting in props with more bite still leaves you with 900 HP to turn it. How you apply the 900 HP doesn't really matter - small prop fast, big prop slow - it's still "only" 900 HP.

You can juggle this stuff around and perhaps gain a 1/2 knot by optimizing but to gain several knots on a boat takes an HP increase or a large weight reduction.

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Wow! Sky, please don't take this the wrong way, but I thought you made statements to the effect removing the engines on a 53ED was fairly simple by removing the hatches and that cutting the hull would never be necessary. Maybe I misunderstood.

PLEASE, this is not intended to start a personal debate, but I am helping another member in locating a 53ED (as you may well know) so I would think a little clarification from an owner of a 53ED, such as yourself, may be in order.

My answer in that case was in referrence to a 53MY/58YF, not the ED. The ED has the pilothouse bulkhead and no hatches.

If someone has actually done this, it's too bad they don't participate here. It would be great to get some real world feedback on what they did and how it worked out. I'm still a little skeptical of 26kts with the same powerplants.

BTW, this should really be a "Tech" thread.

 

[Boss Lady]

Bigger wheels at slower rpm is a lot more efficient, this is exactly what Hatteras did with the new boats. Look at the efficiencies of larger wheels and it will make more sense. I just spoke to a gentleman this week that changed to lower gears and bigger wheels and he picked up five knots with the exact same engines. So I guess it can be done.

The small props we use push as much water sideways as they do backwards, so they are consuming HP, but not producing usable thrust. The bigger wheels produce more usable thrust for the same amount of HP.

I just wish that I had figured this out before now.

 

[ThirdHatt]

Pascoe says you need 1600hp to move these boats at "today's" speeds and I believe him. Drop in a pair of 800hp Luggers and see what happens. Smooth, reliable bulletproof engines with all the power, speed and efficiency ever to grace a 1510 hull. Sounds like FUN to me! Anyone with some extra money to burn??

 

[Angela]

I have the 58MY, galley up with the pilothouse. At the Miami Boat Show, we looked the new engines we'd like to have some day and took some measurements. With all the "stuff" removed, they are only 23" wide - Cummins QSMs. Likewise, the Detroits appear to be similarly sized once all the stuff is removed from them. But....what was more eye-opening....we did some precise measuring when we got home (well, truth is....Ed's wheels were turning and he started measuring) with regard to exactly where the engine rooms, and the engines themselves, were below the pilothouse and the galley. Only a few inches really extend beyond the bulkhead between the pilothouse and the galley, and the stuff in the aft section of the engine rooms is not engine related - it's airconditioning, exhaust tubes, etc. Our careful measurements revealed that we could remove the bench in the pilothouse and cut a hatch over each engine and then pluck them out disassembled, and they will fit through the pilothouse/galley door which has a 24" opening. The new engines can go back in the same way and then reassemble down there.

Whether there are hatches already under the parquet floor in the pilothouse, I don't know yet, and I can't tell from the engine rooms since the ceilings are lined with alumium sheeting with a large fire extinguisher mounted horizontally over each engine - not something I want to disassemble just to have a peek. I don't think it's all that big of a deal to cut in a hatch after the pilothouse bench is removed. I was happy to learn that disassembly of the galley or cutting a huge hole in the side of the boat won't be necessary.

Is the 53ED exactly the same....I don't know, but get out the tape measure and see. Eyeballing it led me to believe a good deal of the engine rooms was under the galley, but it's not so, and that makes me VERY happy!

 

[Freebird]

BTW, this should really be a "Tech" thread.

????????

 

[jlightonjr]

Friends,

I will take full responsibility for the mis-posting of my question - so blame it on the new guy as they say, I am still finding my way around. This is clearly a tech thread question.

DC - I know the 56 Hat that had the work done at Beardslee, it was owned by DJ Kennedy and kept at the GPYC I know that the props were custom made and cost a TON and I want to say they were 5 blade?

Would love to keep the original power in a 53ED with just the addition of gears and props and see what would happen

Warm Regards,
Jack

 

[SKYCHENEY]

Jack,
The comment about where to post wasn't a criticism, just a note to a moderator to move it.

Now, with as many 1510 hulls that are out there(maybe 5-600), you would think that someone would eventually try this. We just have to find the guy who parted with that kind of money for the experiment and see what happened. The specifics on the 56MY would be a start.

Ang,
Yes the PH setup on my ED is exactly like yours. The only problem with removing and reinstalling that way is that you're going to have to disassemble a brand new engine to repower. This may be a problem with warranty since the manufacturer will have no control over how it's put back together in the boat.

 

[jlightonjr]

Sky - no problem thanks for the note.

I am going to get out my 53EDMY blood hound and see what more I can find out. I may also place a call to Beardslee just for kicks and to DJ Kennedy to confirm the speed of his 56.

Warm Regards,
Jack

 

[DeeRow]

My 42' Cruisers has the engines and fuel tanks under the cockpit (and it doesn't have v-drives!). I curently have 3 blades props and I'm in the process of getting 4 bladed props. The boat needs a lot of tab to get up on plane when I have a full load of fuel. In fact, there is a permanent tab in the middle of the boat. The prop shop says that more blades generate more lift. This will reduce the need for heavy tab. The same shop added cup to my three bladed props last year which also generated lift. The improvement was obvious. I have acquired a set of 4 bladed props that can't be reworked because of electrolysis (sp?) damage. However, the prop shop has suggested that I try them. If there is an egually impressive jump in performance, I might just get crazy and buy a set of new 5 bladed props!

I have played a lot with the prop calculator on boatdiesel.com, and it doesn't seem to factor this in at all. The only thing at effects the prop calculators speed is the wieght of the boat. Additionally, the prop calculator does not have anything for 5 bladed props.

I think when it comes props, there is still as much art as science.

Mark