2003 MAN Diesels 2840LE4 V-10's (1005hp)

[jlightonjr]

Posting this question to see if anyone has feedback on MAN diesels? I heard that some of the non electronic engines smoke like heck?

Anyone with feedback on the 2003 2840LE4 V-10's (1005hp) or the MAN brand in general?

Thanks!!!

JEL

 

[MikeP]

Here's a quote from Pascoe's site:

For your larger boats, and very heavy smaller boats (e.g. small Hats, Berties, etc.) I still think the Detroits are the best way to go, both from a cost and reliability stand point. Here your choices expand to MAN and MTU, but when considering both initial cost and repair and maintenance costs, these engines are enormously expensive. Nor are these German engines quite as reliable as many people are led to believe. These engines have had their fair share of design faults also

The complete article is at:http://www.yachtsurvey.com/comparing_diesel_types.htm

All of his articles are well worth reading.

 

[jlightonjr]

Thanks for the reply, his site is fantastic, he is a very smart guy!

 

[motoryacht lover]

I am an owner of a MAN powered boat but for barely a week. I just bought the boat. So, I don't have much direct owner experience yet but I did a lot of research and asked a lot of questions. I came from Detroits and had a strong MAN bias (negative). I had a friend that had the 8 cyl, 800hp MANs in a 1998 47 Vikng and his experience was very good. Well I saw a boat that I liked and it had MANs in it and my friend was encouraging me to open my mind. So I started asking questions and researching. Some people love them and some hate them. Also it depends on the model as to how good they are. The 10 cyl 820s are considered one of their best and the 680s were good as well. The horsepower to cubic inch ratio on the 10cyl 820s is very good. My friends boat and mine do smoke on acceleration (black) but not excessively and it clears up. The heads are individual for each cylinder so service there is easier. They have had some injector problems that led to piston meltdowns but I think that problem is over. The service requirements are pretty extensive and expensive and they want you do this every 2 years or 1000 hours or whichever comes first. They shake a little below 1000 rpms because of the piston cut out feature. A minor annoyance. I do think the parts are more expensive but no more so than CAT but I can't prove it. There service coverage could be better. Also I think they have some corporate arrogance. Some tell me that is German thing. My ancestry is German so I can say that. I made the decision to buy the boat and I overcame my resistance to the MANs. But I still have concerns about owning Mangrenades. I think Pascoe is very informative and must reading for boaters but I think he presents his info in a way that makes you think that no one with a net worth of less than 10 million has any business owning a boat. Go to boatdiesel.com and look at that. Email me if you want more info. I did hear the 1005 hp 10 cylinders were problematic.

 

[jlightonjr]

Very good post, thank you! Good points, good insight on some of the MAN quirks!

Thanks!

 

[Boss Lady]

Motoryacht Lover, I like your description of "mangrenades" LOL and this brings up a good point. Any engine can be hot rodded beyond its original design parameters, and conventional wisdom has always held with the 1hp per cubic inch rule for any kind of longevity. We have discussed this many times on this forum. Most of us have Detroit iron, and some of these have the pins hanging out of the grenade as well. I looked at all the current "new technology" engines when I went to repower. One of the things I seriously looked at was the ease of maintenance, even I can work on a DD and service is available at every little hole in the wall location on the planet. The same cannot be said for the new iron, no matter who makes it. You will be walking across the proverbial desert everytime you need a sip of water, if you get tied up with MAN. Depending upon your boat use this may not be a big issue, but it was for me. I would certainly get some price quotes for regular maintenance items, like injectors. I would get their stated mean time between failures in writing, that way you have something else to hit them over the head with if you have problems. The larger question is how do they handle problems, who has responsibility to come fix it and what do they consider reasonable response time. Nothing like having a problem on the weekend and no one to talk to until Monday. Is there someone local who can provide full service and are their prices and service good. Just some things to think about.

 

[Genesis]

The biggest problem I have with MANs is their PM schedule - and if you ignore it, you're asking for trouble. It is insanely expensive in my experience - I've seen five-digit invoices (per engine!) for routine 1,000 hour service.

One of the things I've learned over the years is that its not just the purchase price - far more important is the total cost of ownership. As such before I'd buy any engine these days I'd demand a price for an overhaul (including itemized parts and labor) and a priced scheduled maintenance list, again with parts and labor itemized.

This doesn't mean the prices can't go up - they both can and will. But it is something you should have before you buy, so you can fairly compare TCO between brands.

Few if any potential owners get this information until after they own the boat - then they find out the hard way!

 

[Boss Lady]

Well said Karl. TCO is why I went with good "old" Detroit Iron. The other issue was too many single point failures (injection pump, electronic control computer, etc) and if it can go wrong it will go wrong on a boat. Now that there are new players making spare parts for Detriot, we will be able to keep them running for years.

 

[Genesis]

Well, electronic enignes scare me on a boat when you're talking about a true "Sea boat".

I know, they're in cars and have a good service record. And for what its worth, I know how to design ones that don't break. Often. For that matter, my outboards have ECUs and have for years, and they've been fine.

Now get hit by lightning and let's talk about that again.

Oh, that never happens to you offshore eh? Tell that to the shrimper I watched get hit in the gulf a few years ago at 0-dark-30, 100 miles offshore. We idled over to see if he was ok after he went dark and they had only handheld flashlights left - and running mechanical engines.

 

[Paul45c]

Just two things I'd add here --

1. right now I think Chris (Boss Lady) is right that there are more mechanics that are DD-knowledgeable today, but I think you have to bear in mind that if it's not already the case, the number of SHOPS with DD expertise is either even or less than the number with MAN active dealerships and/or currently-schooled mechanics. We all know DD is pretty much officially legacy iron. You'll have to be increasingly content with independent mechanics if you want to stay with DD. That probably is not going to be a problem, as I expect there will continue to be plenty of guys who earned their diesel chops on DD iron and will never forget, but none of your new mechs will be getting DD classes and training. So, where do you derive your comfort level? If you need a big shop behind you (think mechanics ready to travel on the drop of a hat to come get you fixed back up for the return trip home from the islands, for instance) as opposed to "Shade Tree Al" who may be a DD genius, but can't even think about an overseas trip for two or three more weeks because of graduation, his promise to his wife to paint the house, the two kits & heads jobs he's promised other patiently-waiting customer, etc., this could be a problem depending on your usage.

2. my mechanic has no real religion about MANs one way or the other -- they're not perfect and have their quirks, as has been pointed out, but nor are they inherently grenades or problems. He'll heartily second that the parts and maintenance cost is high. He's a DD guy in a shop that's not a DD dealer, and most of their new work is MAN, MTU and I believe some Cummins. I think of those three he likes the Cummins the best until you get up to really big HP.

 

[motoryacht lover]

I got prices from 3 different MAN dealers re the 1000 hour/2 yr service. The 1000 hr service with rebuilt injectors is around 10,000 for both engines. This includes impellars, new coolant, valve adjustment, intercooler and heat exchanger cleaning, compressor housing cleaning, injectors, and new belts. I think that is all. It is more expensive than a Detroit but not that much more. Keep in mind I was paying to have it done by good Detroit mechanics that used to work at the local Detroit Dealer. Also with Detroits you were maybe pushing it if you didn't clean Heat X's every year. I sold the boat before I had to clean the aftercooler and I bet that was going to be expensive. I believe Boss Lady and Genesis do their alot of their own work so the above would not apply to them. Also the MANs I bought are mechanical not electrical. Believe me I am a Detroit fan but became concerned with availability of good mechanics. I was told by someone who would know that the local Detroit Dealer is no longer training people in 2 cycles. Also on this forum I am hearing about long wait times for heads and other parts. Time will tell if I made a mistake buying the MANs, but I think I would rather buy Mans than CAT 31 series.

 

[Genesis]

Those are different engines - the ones I saw the invoice for had turbo replacement called for (these were sequentially turbocharged if I recall correctly) and the turbo alone was $10k.

I about shat. For what he paid for 1,000 hour service I could have paid to have both of my 92s in-framed, or done it close to three times over with my own labor!

 

[MikeP]

The 1000 hr service with rebuilt injectors is around 10,000 for both engines

Well, everyone has their own view of this stuff but to me that's insane. From the description of the service, other than the new injectors, I'd just call it routine maintanance and, on a DD, about 300 bucks worth of parts and a couple day's work.

Everytime I hear about these new, better diesels I wait for, as Paul Harvey used to say, "The REST of the story." And, to paraphrase the NRA, They'll pry these DD's out of my cold, dead hands!

 

[motoryacht lover]

I thought I would post some of my invoices for past work on my Detroits as a comparison to what will be charged for similiar work on the MANs. So here goes:

1999 Changed coolant on both engines and some troubleshooting and a sea trial. $1051.00
2000 Cleaned heat exchangers and fuel coolers both mains and genny $1550.00
2000 Starboard 6V71 low on turns and power. Replaced 3 injectors (I asked for all to be replaced but that did not happen) Inc. sea trial $2200.00
2000 Replace 3 more inj star side and 6 on port $1900.00
2001 Change oil in mains and genny and take samples $612.00
2001 Change air filters, install block heaters (no wiring) change raw water impellars mains and genny, change tstats both mains $1506.00
2002 Install Algea X magnets both mains $1400.00
2004 Two raw water gear driven pumps No installation $1580.00
2004 Rebuild all inj both engines, change oil in both mains and gears, change all zincs, change engine coolant, check alignment $4234.00
2005 Remove all heat X's mains and genny $2300.00 (inc troubleshooting and sea trials)
2005 Change oil mains and genny and take samples change raw water impellars mains and genny $875.00
2005 Pull fuel coolers and pressure check, align both engines (trouble shooting fuel sheen on water. $805.00

So if we take 875.00 for oil and impellar change, rebuild all inj both engine and change oil and coolant 4200.00, remove heat Xs mains and genny $2000.00 (take off 300 for sea trial and troubleshooting) So for a 1000 service for 2 6cyl Detroits is roughly $7000.00 The MANs in this instance are 3000 more for 20 cyls. True you won't have to do it as much with the Detroits. But based on these real world numbers I don't see were it is that much worse. Believe me I am not trying to crap on Detroits but just trying to show how I arrived at my decision. I await you alls interpretation of the data. The above invoices were from both Detroit Dealers and independent Mechanics in both NC and VA.

 

[MikeP]

I admit, your numbers seem to indicate that if you pay mechanics to do all the work, the advantage may be with the other engines

But I just look at those prices and freak out completely! $1900 to change coolant? You can do it yourself (on a pair of DDs anyway) for a 100 bucks.

Clean HEs, etc - 5 bucks worth of Muriatic Acid or maybe twice that much for Ospho.

Change oil in mains/genny - 120 bucks for oil and filters (used to be 90 until this year)

I realize that labor always costs far more than parts but JEEZ!

As I've said many times before, if I had to pay folks to maintain my boat, I wouldn't be running around in a Hatt 53MY...maybe a 24ft Bayliner!