Options for GFCI or Standard E-frame breaker

[Streff]

I am looking to replace one of the GFCI breakers in one of the distribution panels. I have 4 GFCI breakers on and recently when on generator power, these GFCI breakers pop about 50% of the time and one of these GFCI breakers no longer easily resets (it may take days before I am able to reset it). No issues on shore or inverter power. It seems that this specific breaker that wont reset is defective.

These E-frame breakers are no longer made and Samsmarine don't have the exact replacement GFCI breaker.
Speaking with one specialist breaker outfit, they recommended installing a standard (Non-GFCI) E-frame breaker and replacing the first outlet in the line with a GFCI outlet. With the option of replacing all the other outlets on that line with GFCI outlets.

Before I embark on this project, I thought I would ask the forum for comments and input regarding options, if they exist.

Thank you kindly

Streff

 

[SKYCHENEY]

You can bypass the ground fault on that breaker and still continue to use it without replacing it. You can add a GFIC unit without the plug integrated into it which then replaces the ground fault on that breaker. I was told that Sams has the wiring instructions for doing this. You simply add the new GFIC unit near that breaker.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-20-Amp-125-Volt-Combo-Self-Test-Blank-Face-GFCI-Outlet-White-GFRBF-KW-R98-GFRBF-0KW/206001151#overlay

 

[Avenger]

I would be more concerned that it only happens on the generator. If the breaker was faulty I would expect it to happen with any power source.

 

[jmooney]

I replaced the GFI Circuit breaker with a non GFI and added a GFI outlet in the wall circuit. Once they start popping they only get worse. I was told that Hatters bought the rights to these breakers and then didn’t produce them .

 

[Bob Bradley]

Make sure it's really a problem with the breaker and not something else. I had the exact same symptom, including a delay in being able to reset it. It turned out to be a small spray of salt water in a fairly inaccessible area of the engine room that was eventually dripping onto a AC circuit block after long runs.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Has anything been added since the last time the breaker was working correctly?
Light? Charger? Appliance? Negative Waves?

 

[Streff]

Thank you all for the fantastic comments and recommendations. I did go out & bought a couple of GFCI outlets in preparation of making the changes recommended by Sky and Jmooney. Now, I just need to find the wiring instructions from Samsmarine to bypass the culprit GFCI breaker….just to have all the info.

As others have mentioned, I need to figure out why this is happening on generator power only. I ran the gen last night and it happened again… All 4 GFCI breakers popped 95min after I started the genset. 3 breakers reset and 1 remains off. This non-resettable breaker controls the Port side outlets & lights, starting with an outlet in the V-berth, then the outlet & light in the V-berth head and so on going aft.

Last week, I kept this breaker off when running the genny and the other 3 breakers popped.. so I am thinking it maybe something related to the those circuits?. And not necessarily the non-resettable breaker circuit.

So the investigation continues this morning.. New changes on the AC side, this season, include an added TV on the Flybridge that connects to a longstanding outlet. An RV-type fridge/freezer. I did have a new swimplatform installed. The manufacturer recommended bonding the platform brackets. I did that by connecting the bolts from the brackets to the bonding bar on the inner face of the transom (photo attached). I did disconnect the Flybridge TV before running the gen last night.. same outcome.

I looked everywhere in the engine room & staterooms for leaks near AC circuits and examined the AC outlets in the ERs.. everything looks fine. Since it only happens on generator power.. maybe its a neutral point issue with the generator .. I don't know enough to test that possibility but I have one of those outlet testers that shows open neutral, open ground, etc.

Thank you all again for the help.

 

[Captain Ralph]

#1 question; Are you still connected to Dock side power?
Shore cables really removed?

 

[Streff]

Hello,

Yes. All shore cables are removed.

 

[Captain Ralph]

#2 question; Any repairs or new 230Vac; laundry, stove or oven ACs?
I remember a AC pump controller leaking to ground causing GFI issues.

 

[carolinacoast]

Here is a long AI suggestion
Likely root causes (generator vs shore)On shore power everything shares the marina’s neutral‑ground bond and a clean sine wave, so marginal leakage often stays just below the GFCI trip threshold. On the generator, a few things change:Generator neutral/ground bonding conflictIf the generator is internally bonded (neutral tied to ground) and your boat’s main panel is also bonded, you can create parallel return paths so some current returns on the grounding conductor instead of the neutral. That imbalance will trip GFCIs, sometimes after some run time and warming. ��Inverter/charger or transfer gear leakageInverters, chargers, isolation/transfer switches, and reverse‑Y adapters are notorious for leaking a little current to ground and causing nuisance trips of ELCI/GFCI on boats, especially when the power source changes from shore to generator. ��Real developing ground fault under loadA heating element, motor (AC compressor, pump), or other appliance on that GFCI circuit may have insulation that starts leaking to ground as it warms up, so it only trips after 30–60 minutes on generator. ��Why one GFCI won’t resetWhen a GFCI won’t reset, typical causes are: moisture in the device/box, a downstream fault still present, a tripped upstream breaker, or simply a failed device from age or repeated trips. ��� On a boat, vibration, heat, and salt humidity can accelerate failure, so it’s common to have to replace the GFCI once it starts nuisance‑tripping and then refusing to reset. ��What I’d check next (in order)Confirm bonding schemeWith shore power disconnected, verify whether the generator neutral is bonded to ground inside the genset and whether your main AC panel also bonds neutral to ground. You want only one bond point in the system when on generator. ��Isolate loads on that GFCI circuitWith generator running, turn off or unplug everything on the problem GFCI circuit, then try resetting after the genset has been on for a while. If it now holds, re‑add loads one at a time until you find the one that causes the delayed trip. ��Inspect for moisture and corrosionOpen the box for the GFCI that won’t reset and any junction boxes it feeds, check for condensation, green/black copper, or salt tracks that could be providing a leakage path to ground. Dry/clean or replace as needed. ���Replace the bad GFCIIf it still won’t reset with the circuit de‑energized and all loads disconnected, replace the device; repeated trips and marine environment can simply kill them. ��

 

[bostonhatteras]

That AI explanation is pretty good. Another thing you can check is if your generator is putting out a constant 60 hertz. aberrations to the hertz can mees up gfci performance. A test that can be done to a live circuit is called a residual current check/test. It does require a highly sensitive clamp meter but you can check the wiring and the load for leaking current and narrow things down that way. ABYC now has a standard for all vessels with shore power to have an ELCI breaker installed just downstream of the shore power inlet. Electrical leakage circuit interrupters trip at 30 milliamps as opposed to 5/7 milliamps on gfci. Surveyors are supposed to recommend that for all surveys with shore power now if it doesn't exist.

 

[Streff]

Thank you very much for the comments. To answer Captain Ralph, on the AC side.. new additions are 1. a Seawater pro Watermaker 2. TV on flybridge , 3. RV-type floor fridge freezer. The GFCI still pops with the Watermaker & TV breakers OFF. Fridge/freezer is always on.

After reading carlinacoast & Boston Hatteras comments, I started opening the covers of the outlets & lights switches on GFCI to check for corrosion or such. I have about 30 of these to check. The first 6 looked fine.
From what I recall, the generator monitor shows 59.6 hertz. I will monitor the hertz carefully next time.

I will have to start checking on the generator bonding connections as that’s a totally different investigative avenue. But it may explain things.

As a side note, All outlets & light switches that have GFI protection are protected by GFCI breakers (4 of them). But there is one new standalone GFCI outlet that was installed 1.5 yrs ago when an icemaker was installed in the salon and it has its own standard breaker in the panel. This associated breaker is not attached directly to other GFCI breakers in the panel.
But this standalone outlet always pops when the GFCI breakers pop. The icemaker was never plugged-in but the outlet is used to power a 50” TV, Apple TV, power to ER cameras & an entertainment center. Interesting side note.

I will continue the investigation.. in the meantime, I reached out to Samsmarine to inquire about writing instruction to bypass the non-resetting GFI breakers.. have not heard back yet.

Thank you

 

[Captain Ralph]

Oh, Do you have an isolation transformer for your dock power?

 

[Streff]

Yes, I have 2 isolation transformers.

 

[SeaEric]

My WAG suggests that the RV-type floor fridge freezer would be worth some scrutiny.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Yes, I have 2 isolation transformers.

Lets look at the white and green connects at the gen-set.
But something is leaking to the green wire.

 

[Boatsb]

Are you sure the generator isn't supposed to be the one place where what and green are common? Unless its an isolated system like on most metal boats its suppose to be that way.

Ive been watching all the ideas thrown out and have to ask who knows about the system enough to offer diagnostic suggestions. I dont see anyone with the knowledge of how it's all supposed to work as a system. Its time to bring in a real electrician. No more armchair expurts or someone may get hurt.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Are you sure the generator isn't supposed to be the one place where what and green are common? Unless its an isolated system like on most metal boats its suppose to be that way.

Ive been watching all the ideas thrown out and have to ask who knows about the system enough to offer diagnostic suggestions. I dont see anyone with the knowledge of how it's all supposed to work as a system. Its time to bring in a real electrician. No more armchair expurts or someone may get hurt.

The generator is the only place where white and green are common.
An important connection to check since it's usually in a grungy and vibrating environment.

 

[Captain Ralph]

Yes, I have 2 isolation transformers.

And NO inverter?