to rebuild or throw away?

[danshat]

Well after quite a long delay I will finally get the Chrysler 440's out of the boat on Tuesday. I called around to find someone to reman them but was given rather frustrating news. Several places told me it would take them months to round up all of the parts and it would involve scouring junkyards. I am way out of the diesel price range and have heard good things about the 440's. Am I being fed a line of crap about the parts being impossible to find. Last I looked I could get a Mopar kit for about $800. One guy even told me they probably wouldn't even be acceptable as a core. Sure would be nice to be able to drop them back in and not worry about having to raise the salon floor. As always any advice is welcome. Thanks!

[Maynard Rupp]

I did rebuild a 426 Chrysler marine engine for our club's workboat. It was still running after 20 years. We had a guy in Detroit that had worked for Chrysler Marine and bought all their marine parts when Chrysler decided to exit the marine business. He had everything you need. He died, his son took over, and he died. I guess I would not try to rebuild those engines. They will need hardened valve seats to deal with unleaded fuel. That alone is a big expense. I wish we were removing our Crusaders to install Cummins QSBs. Our Crusaders are in great shape but that is why I am not making the change at this time. Try to find a pair o 350hp. Crusaders. They are the best gas engines for these boats. I think you can buy new ones, called "classic" fairly cheap. The new engines all run the same way as a car so you need the new Warner transmissions that can run constantly in either direction.

[MikeP]

I assume the difficulty is in the parts (RW Cooling and exhaust) associated with the marine conversion, right? There is no difficulty at all in rebuilding a Mopar 440 otherwise. As far as the core (block) not being suitable for rebuild - that sounds like a guy talking who wants to sell you something else. Unless the block has a hole/crack in it or has been rebored so many times it cannot be bored again (unlikely), it is fine. In fact, a used eng block makes a better base for a strong and efficient engine than a new one. A GOOD rebuilder can ALWAYS produce a better engine out of a used block than what you will get from a factory's new engine.

However, if the marine conversions parts are hard to get, then I'd agree with Maynard that a carbureted Crusader would be a good choice to replace the Mopars. Otherwise I'd rebuild the Mopars.

[drburke]

If cost is an issue, I wouldn't give up on the engine yet. Yours went out of production in 1978, as did my oddball Olds 455s, yet I am able to scrounge up parts. I do have a bad manifold, but I am having an expert weld the cast iron. As far as replacement parts, I am seeing a lot of Chrysler marine stuff.

If you want to replace the exhaust seats with hardened ones, that is common and trivial for a machine shop to do--some even claim with SS valves it may not be absolutely necessary.

While you think it over watch this which I found this on Youtube, which has some fun background music from Gilligan to Love Boat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejvRDskWSX0

Crusaders are a great substitute, but I think your 440s are good for another round.

DAN

[StratPlan61]

Have you spoken with Marysville Marine in Marysville, Michigan? They have been a meca for Chrysler Marine parts for many decades. I had 440 Chryslers in my Trojan MY. I used them for 13 years - great engines, trouble free!!

Call marysville Marine - they're straight shooters if they are still around!

[drburke]

Here's a link:

http://www.marysvillemarine.com/

DAN

[danshat]

Thanks guys! Just got of the phone with the guys at Marysville. They assured me they have all the parts necessary to rebuild the 440. As always i'm totally impressed with the knowledge and helpfullness of the folks on this site.

[MikeP]

Dan - are you going to be doing the rebuild work yourself or having a mechanic do it? In or out of the boat? Obviously it would be far better to do it out of the boat so a machine shop can set up the blocks as they should be.

If the engs are being removed, I'd suggest they go to the machine shop and the following be done (not in order of machining) to ensure long life and maximum efficiency.

1. Cylinders bored/honed to the LEAST oversize possible using Torque plates (also called "hone plates"). If they say torque plates aren't necessary or "we don't use those," thank them and find another shop. I have seen more than 50(!) HP gains by doing this and adjusting piston ring gaps to optimum.

2. Have the rotating parts balanced. Although folks might say this is not a "high performance engine" the fact is that a marine engine runs at consistently higher RPM than a car engine. Balancing is not very expensive and smoother spinning is better.

3. I'd personally recommend you use Sealed Power (Federal Mogul) rings and tell the machine shop - they will know what bore finish is necessary based on the ring selection.

4. Align hone (bore) the block - this ensures the crankshaft rides perfectly square in the main bearing bores. I have seen big blocks gain 30+ HP just by align boring.

There are a lot of other operations that will give you free power - free in the sense that the engine will produce more power using less fuel, not free in the sense that they won't charge you to do the work! But the most critical are ensuring the bores are round at operating temp which torque plates helps with and the align honing. You could have the block decked as well and precision head work (cc-ing) done but the improvement is not so obvious and now we are heading into "blueprinting" - a good thing but fairly expensive. I have seen a 426 Hemi develop over 100 more HP just by blueprinting - no "Performance" parts added.

As noted above, another item that can pay big dividends is for the shop (or you/mechanic) to hand file (there is a tool for this) the rings to the proper end gap as opposed to just using whatever the rings deliver when installed. As an example, a typical spec for end gap on the compression ring for an engine with a 4" bore might read (in inches): .016-.023. As you can easily see, a production set of rings might give you either of those numbers and/or a mix of anything between them. A piston with a comp ring gap of .016 is going to produce more power and less blowby than a piston with a .025 ring gap. By ensuring they are all the same (and toward the low side of the spec) you again gain efficiency AND reduced engine vibration. There are standard specs for the first and second ring gaps - usually .004 per inch of bore for the first ring and .045 for the second.

If you are going to do this (or have it done) IN the boat, you cannot produce anywhere close to that level of work but you can do a reasonable job that will last a long time if you/mechanic are extremely careful and work slowly using the specs/procedures in the SHOP MANUAL for the engine, not a Chilton or whatever and keep the engine scrupulously clean. Some folks may not realize that CLEAN is one of the best power-makers you can do for an engine! What do you clean with? After using the usual degreasers/thinners/solvents, whatever, the answer is SOAP AND WATER. IF a white rag can rubbed on the cleaned surface with NO discoloration at all, the surface is clean. After cleaning, cyl bores will have to be coated to prevent rusting, which they will do in about 30 seconds! WD 40 works well for this until you are ready to reinstall the pistons. Cover the engine with a plastic bag until ready to reinstall parts.

Anytime you encounter engine clearance specs that can be adjusted (like rings), it is best to have them all the same and toward the minimum side of the appropriate spec. With things like main/rod bearing clearance you can't do much about that other than check it to ensure it is within the specs. The machine shop CAN make the clearances precise and exactly the same but this gets into more work and money than it's worth in this application.

Obviously there is a ton more involved in a rebuild than the few items I have mentioned. It is all contained in the shop manual but the items I mentioned are at the heart of the engine and make the most difference in the final results.

Hmm, this got longer than I intended. Sorry If I have rambled on too much - don't hesitate to email me if I can provide any useful advice. I spent a lot of my life building performance and competition engines, over half of them being Mopars. Last I heard, none of them have blown up!

[danshat]

Mike,

Thanks for the info and advice. I have never claimed to know much about engines. The engines are going to the shop as I don't trust myself not to screw it up. I will deffinately take your advice and find a shop that will do it to your recomendations. Once I get some more info from the shop I may email you and pick your brain a little more. Sure glad I have you guys to help me avoid getting ripped off by a half a$$ job.

[Ross]

Dan just wandering how you got the engines out of the cabin?