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Thread: Comparisons

  1. #1
    Jackman Guest

    Comparisons

    I posted about my engine issues. I decided to most likely rebuild the current crusaders but I talked with some people and decided for the heck of it to look into repowering with diesel.

    I was considering Yanmar because of the weight and what I hear about them. A salesperson brought up an engine that I know nothing about and claims its much better than Yanmar. What do you think about Peninsular Diesel engines compared to Yanmar? The engine looks like it would be a "shoe in" on my boat, costs less, is supposed to last 8000hrs before overhaul compared to Yanmar at 3000hrs. (All this info from the salesman) I wouldn't have to change the shafts, coolant lines or anything other than the props.

    Thanks...

  2. #2
    Genesis Guest

    Is that a GM block?

    8000 hours? Maybe for the 200HP model....

    That's a 400cid engine, and looks a lot like the GM 6.5 diesel (oops - I think it is!) with bolt-on parts.

    Relatively inexpensive, yes. Don't go beyond 310HP if you want good service life. Can you live with twin 300s?

    Realize that this engine in the Hummer is rated at 160HP. You're pushing it WAY beyond that output in marine trim.

  3. #3
    Jackman Guest

    Re: Is that a GM block?

    Well I guess that stops me talking about that engine! I had a 6.5TD Dually for a bu siness I owned and it was the worst running engine I ever had. I could write forever but I won't. Most of it was poor design on the part of GM and placement of the computer related items for their stanadyne fuel injector pump. Will never by another one again.

    Gee, these guys will try to see you anything. Save a few bucks but have to spend a ton in the long run. The Yannies he priced were the 315hp version. Clamined a 30kt cruise with his configuration and the 80A trannies. Price was 23K each ready to slap in with minor engine compartment changes, I guess. I probably would have to change the raw water intakes as well. If I remember correctly the 315hp engine is the one which is the "upper end" of that specific block. The 370hp version would probably work out better. Gas or diesel I just want motors that won't have to work hard and die prematurely.

  4. #4
    John F Guest

    Diesels

    Alot of guys over on the B31 board have repowered. The engines of choice appear to be the 6bta Cummins or the Yannies. I've looked into this for my B31 (to be prepared when the 454s go), and I'd go with the Cummins or Yannies.

    Since you were running 454s, you'll probably have to change shafts, stuffing boxes if you go up much, change the struts or maybe get 'em bored, and change props. From what I can tell, if I went to 6btas turn-key, with me doing nothing but writing the check, it'd be close to $60K when done (its all relative--I thought that was alot until I read about some of you Hatt guys repowering your 42+ boats).

  5. #5
    Jackman Guest
    The guy I talked with said that Yanmar uses a lot of aluminum in their coolant system and corrosion becomes an issue in two years or more.
    He said Peninsular uses some combination of metals which lasts longer and doesn't corrode.

    Anyhow...it seems as though Cuimmins and Yanmar are comparable with Cummins being a cheaper in pricing...

    6BTA 370 $21,900 (includes marine gear and ready to bolt up)

    Yannie 6ly-stp 28,000 (includes marine gear and ready to bolt up)

    This info is from two different people. Maybe I'm mising something.

  6. #6
    Genesis Guest

    Yanmar .vs. Cummins.....

    I'm not happy with how Yanmar does their cooling systems thus far - that is indeed a potential issue...

    Cummins 6bs have been good motors for everyone who I've talked to that has them....

  7. #7
    jim rosenthal Guest

    diesel repower

    I would stay away from Peninsular diesels- they are indeed marinized small GM V8s and do not have a commendable service record. And the service network is far inferior to what you can count on with Cummins or Yanmar.
    As far as the Yanmar cooling systems go, I have never owned one of their engines however they have an extremely good service record in sailboat engines, and if there is one crowd that neglects their engines it is sailboaters. Their idea of periodic engine service is often laughable, if it weren't so pathetic. Despite that, there are thousands of Yanmars that are running around giving excellent service.
    I also have several friends who own late-model boats that have been repowered with Yanmars in the 230-400hp range. No complaints. Period. My reason for going with CATs was that I got a terrific deal on mine, better than I could have gotten on the Yanmars, and the repower yard had done dozens of boats in conjunction with the CAT dealer. If my Hatteras had Yanmars, it would go faster, use less fuel, and be worth just as much. I would have them in an instant if circumstances had been a little different.
    Likewise the Cummins B engines. These are a mature product, they have been around forever, they are thoroughly debugged, and there are a ton of them out there so they are available on the rebuilt market. Get a set of rebuilt ones where all the updates have been put in, and you would be good to go. And go fast.
    I don't think there is a CAT engine which competes as a best choice, although I like CAT engines. I think you should get Cummins or Yanmar in the 330-350 hp range, if you decide to go with diesels, and I think you'll be very pleased with the results.

  8. #8
    Genesis Guest

    Not the same design....

    The smaller Yanmars are perfectly ok - they don't do the screwball things the big ones do.

    Some of their bigger engines have combined exhaust manifolds and heat exchangers in one big "thing" on the side, with a lot of different kinds of metal in there.

    Been around boats a while, you know what dissimilar metals do when you put them together in sea water.

    The problem with this design is that (1) those pieces are EXTREMELY expensive (as in $5k each or worse) and (2) they are considered "wear parts" if they fail, since they're exposed to salt water. Further, and perhaps way worse, god help you if they fail the wrong way, since there is a path from them back into the cylinder of the motor....

    I have a little Yanmar 3 cylinder on my genset. It has something like 700 hours on it now and sounds like a sewing machine. I've not had a SINGLE complaint about that engine - not one. However, what I've seen thus far of their engines that would be suitable for main propulsion in a boat this size has yet to impress - although they have gotten my close attention a couple of times.

    Cummins is a known quantity, and a bit less expensive. Perhaps not as refined in the decibel department as the Yanmar, but the 6bs are solid, known quantity engines. I'd own them in a second.

    For my boat, however, they aren't enough go juice. The few people I know who have the QSM series (which ARE enough go juiice for me) have been happy with them, but unfortunately those are fairly new motors, and I have yet to run into anyone with enough time on them to really know how they're going to hold up.

    One guy not far from here has a 45 Hatt that he put the 535 QSMs in. Note that this is just 35 more ponies than my motors. He gained about 3 knots at both cruise and WOT, and his fuel burn is a bit less at 22 kts (his new cruise) than mine is at 18-19! That's a fairly major improvement. Nearly all of it comes from taking a LOT of weight out of the boat though....

    There is another guy with 635s in a 45 Hatt that's a pure rocket. Solid 25-26kt cruise and more than 30 kts in the corner. However, that's pushing the envelope again in terms of output for a given displacement.

    My advice is to stay at or below 0.8hp/cid in selection of diesels for best life in "hard recreational" service. If you are a 100-hour-a-year boater, then you might be ok at 0.9 or even 1.0hp/cid, but you're taking chances there. If you do 200-300 hours a year as I do, then you're playing with fire going towards the top end of that range, as you could easily be looking at rebuilds inside of five years.

    Beyond that you're playing with grenades that have loose pins.

  9. #9
    saltshaker36 Guest

    Re: Diesels

    I think John is right on with checking out the Bertram 31 board and 60K sounds about right. You should be able to gain a lot of info as to what others have done and how much it cost. The performance numbers wont match but the installation should be similar for both the Hatt and the Betty.

    Your numbers seem about right for the Cummins and the Yannies. I like the cummins myself but have no first hand experience with the yanmars. You might consider the 330HP 6Bta's. I believe they are about $2500 less and should yield similar performance as the 370's. There also are some good re-builders for the 3116 Cats. Could save you a lot of cash if they would work for you. A friend of mine paid 11k for a fresh 3116 w/o gear. You do need to be certain that these engines have been properly rebuilt and updated or else you can be playing with fire.

    I repowered my 46SF 2 years ago and can tell you that you need to consider everything before you make the leap. You most likely will need new shafts, props, maybe struts, all new exhaust, raw water intakes, fuel lines, filters, soundproofing, ER paint, etc. You also need to determine if you have enough air intake for the diesels and you want to address anything that is easier to fix or replace once the engines are out.

    I would vote for the diesels only if you are committed to the boat and what it may take to do it right. Do a lot of homework before hand and determine exactly what you want when all is said and done. Be careful of a yard that gives you a low ball installation unless it is all spelled out in a contract. Many will suck you in by telling you they can do the install for 10K but once they have your boat, the prices start to soar.

    You should start with a call to Tom Slane 336-861-6100 and if it is feasible I would have him do the entire job.
    Jack Sardina

  10. #10
    Jackman Guest

    Re: Diesels

    Well...Since I think my boating season is over before it really began....(Had one trip). I think I'll have her pulled and then pull the engines. Then I'll redo the engine compartments as far as paint, soundproofing and probably replace some of the plumbing items I know need addressed and can't be done without the engines out. I will probably even change the water intakes and exhaust system in the evn I decided to repower. If not I just have an extra capacity coolant and exhaust system. It could probably be redone anyhow since its all original from 1985.

    Its a really difficult decision to make. These discussions I have been having with all of you have brought me to some really interesting conclusions, two of which I have been spending a lot of time thinking about.

    1) rebuilding the crusaders

    2) repowering with a 330hp to 370hp cummins. (I like what I've heard about the yanmar but I don't think they have the track record cummins has at this point.)

    My "ideal solution" would result in a close to 28kt cruise to get me to the canyons in a reasonable amount of time, but without working the engines to their max. I think diesel will be the only choice for this. I haven't seen a gas engine that would do it.

    If I repower I'll be out for the season. (Hard to swallow after so much off season work and the fact I love being on the water with the boat so much). If I rebuild I'd slap the rebuiilds back in an try to catch the last few weeks. If I repower I'll get better fuel economy and not have to worry about aux tanks or the issues related to gas....but I'll spend more money. And so on and so forth.....

    So the boat will be coming out and the dismantling will begin. My margeritas will be on land this year! Ughhh! (I like sitting in the slip on a summer afternoon....sipping a cold margerita. This year it'll be on the hard.)

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