The Head and its plumbing?

[Gina Marie]

Ok yesterday we solved the water problem. Now comes the STINKY part.

I have two heads on my vessel. They are vacu flush.

In my engine room on the forward wall I have what looks like an inch and half white pipe that has a y valve on it. One lead goes to my holding tank the other goes to my port forward seacock.

I assume that if I direct the flow on the Y valve I can direct the flow overboard through the seacock. The other direction is to my folding tank.

I do not or can't find a macerator anywhere on the vessel.
How then does the solids get through the seacock.

How then does this work.

Can I add a macerator for overboard disposal.

If so can you explain the process.

[Genesis]

Ok yesterday we solved the water problem. Now comes the STINKY part.

I have two heads on my vessel. They are vacu flush.

In my engine room on the forward wall I have what looks like an inch and half white pipe that has a y valve on it. One lead goes to my holding tank the other goes to my port forward seacock.

I assume that if I direct the flow on the Y valve I can direct the flow overboard through the seacock. The other direction is to my folding tank.

I do not or can't find a macerator anywhere on the vessel.
How then does the solids get through the seacock.

How then does this work.

Can I add a macerator for overboard disposal.

If so can you explain the process.

Ooookkkkk, this is one of the few brain fart areas on these boats.

Here's how its actually rigged up on the 45Cs "from the factory".

The head is forward of the master stateroom, and if there's a second head, its in the forward berth between the "V" (at least that's where it has been on the 45Cs I've been on)

The hose runs under the deck to the engine room, then port to a vacuum tank mounted up high near the floor level, then down to the pump. From there hose runs back to the centerline, where the "Y" valve is. In one position it goes overboard via the seacock, in the other it goes back forward down the same long run to the holding tank.

There is no macerator and none is necessary. The vacuum breaks up any solids to manageable size.

Now, here's the problem with this set up - it massively violates Sealand's rules for installing the Vacuflush system, both in terms of routing (there are supposed to be no "upwards" sections after the pump, but there are), distance run in total (radically violated) and distance from the head to the vacuum chamber (ditto)

It works, surprisingly enough.

I understand why Hatt did it this way - when these boats were built there was no combined tank/pump option. You had to buy the separate vacuum reservoir and pump, and there was no other real option in terms of where ot put it all. But this installation bites, and that's being nice - it creates major permeation problems due to hose length and all the "ups and downs". Eventually your engine room will start to stink due to this unless you change the hose every couple of years, and you will NOT like what's involved in doing that - there are clamps under the deck that are NOT accessible; thus, you will have to cut at least two new hatches to do the job (one in the head, one in the master stateroom aft.) There is simply no other way unless you are a major contortionist, particularly if your boat has a double in the master (mine does.)

Today, you can get a combined tank/pump that will fit under the starboard V-berth all the way aft. The holding tank inlet connection is just aft of the forward bulkhead, and there is a hatch under the carpet to get to the fitting.

Thus, what I'm likely to do here in the next year or so is rip out the baztardized installation, buy the new tank/pump, and do the following:

1. Head to vacuum system to holding tank DIRECT, with tank under the port V-berth.
2. REMOVE all the other cruft.
3. INSTALL the "Y" valve previously for diverting in the pump-out line (accessible through the galley aft hatch in the floor.)
4. Run line (likely hardline Sch40 PVC) from THERE back to the engine room, re-using one of the raceways used for the original hose. There are ample securements to prevent problems with it stress cracking and such. The valve will fit under the hatch in the floor.
5. Install a Sealand macerator pump in the ER, with the output going to the overboard seacock. That macerator can run dry without damage and has a strong vacuum capability.

Now, you always flush to the tank direct, getting rid of permeation issues (the hose between head and tank is all of about 5' long, and its all downhill. No standing sewage, no problems with permeation)

If offshore where legal, you can turn the diverter and fire up the pump, dumping the holding tank any time you'd like.

If not, you can be pumped out conventionally as usual. You just have to make CERTAIN the diverter is pointing the right way before hooking up the pump-out hose (or you'll collapse the hose as you'll be "dead-heading" it!)

This is radically better than the original installation and also avoids the 'flush police' problems where you're not allowed to have a direct overboard discharge AT ALL. You don't any more - all flushes go into the tank. If the seacock and "Y" are secured you can't pump overboard either. This should satisfy the technicalities of "no direct overboard capability" while not removing the ability to pump the tank to the sea when you're where that is legal to do.

[solanderi]

Genesis,

Can you explain the step by step to use a pump out station on a 45C? What about routine maintenance of the head, tank, vents etc ? Thank you

[SKYCHENEY]

BE CAREFUL with those Y-valves. We got boarded once by the CG in the Hampton Rhodes area about 20 years ago and even back then we were really given a hard time about it. I can imagine that had it been today, it would have been a fine at the least. You'd better make sure those valves are "disabled" by removing the handle or they will really come down hard on you if you get caught.

I see in Michigan now that some marinas are getting pressured to sign a no discharge pledge of some kind. In doing so they are in turn asking to inspect each boat that is docked there to make sure that they comply. What's next?

[Genesis]

As normally set up, you hook up the hose to the deck plate forward port, turn on the pump, wait until done (there is usually a clear section in the pump out nozzle's connection so you can see when there is no more "stuff" going through)

The deck forward port's cap does NOT have a chain, because you normally screw a camlock adapter into it, then camlock the hose on. The pump station should have these fittings for use as they vary depending on what the pump station has installed on their end.

Heads should not be left "charged" with vacuum over long periods of time (e.g. when the boat is not in use) When shutting down flush a good quantity of fresh water through to make sure to get any "stuff" out of the lines, then turn off the pump (there is a switch in the owner's head)

There is not much in the way of maintenance on these systems. If the pump leaks there is a seal kit available for it, and if the duckbill valves leak they likewise can be replaced. The head itself has a rotating ball valve and seal that may need replacement, along with a vacuum breaker on the water feed line at the rear of the bowl, but none of this requires routine attention unless you've having trouble with it.

It is a good practice after pumping out to run some fresh water back down the pump out line and then pump it out again to make sure you "got it all". Also, the vent should have fresh water directed into it periodically to deter spiders and such from setting up shop in it.

That's about it.

There is a "3/4 full" light in the head. It works on a diaphram pitot tube in the tank; the diaphram itself is just forward of the bulkhead under the forward SR floor hatch, just port of the shower sump. These occasionally get screwed up and then the light doesn't come on. That's very un-good because if you overflow the tank you will make a huge stinky mess in the water (as you might expect) AND you may block the vent line (at least as bad). The light will start flashing underway before it comes on solid - when it starts blinking at you as the boat moves, its time to dump the tank.

These boats have HUGE blackwater tanks (100 gallonish) and the Vacuflush uses very little water. It is not unusual for me to go MONTHS without having to pump it out as a 'weekend warrior'. Very convenient, and I get my money's worth at the places that charge a fee (it has taken some places with slow pumping systems a half-hour to dump my tank - they have often wondered if their pump is actually broken.... )

The "Y" valve must be LOCKED when in a non-discharge-legal area if your system can pump directly overboard (yours can.) Having it set "correctly" is NOT good enough. Removing the seacock handle counts as "locked", as does a physical padlock, cable tie, etc. Most ""Y" valves have a provision for this. Use it, or the USCG or local gendarme (e.g. FWC here in Florida) will fine you bigtime if they board you inshore and look - even if you're not pumping overboard at the present time.

[Pascal]

looks like genesis know as much about VFs than about DDs... is there something on these boat he doesn't kown inside out? :-)

indeed, having a direct discharge Y valve is a big no no nowadays, it must be secured (padlock or nylon ties) in the closed (no discharge position) when within 3 miles of shore...

1)- overflows are bad indeed, and VERY VERY bad if your vent line has a charcoal filter since any overflow will clog the filter. Note that these filters need to be replaced every couple of years or just simply removed if the vent isn't too close to where you normally hang out. i don't have a filter on the 53, the vent is at the bow and I've only smelled things when someone flush and standing on the dock downwind.

when that filter clogs, 2 things can happen... first the tank may get pressurized after flushing and if you try to pump out soon after a flush, you're in for a very nasty surprise... it's lunch time, don't ask how i know...
also, when pumping out, it will create a vacuum that could collapse the tank.

2)- the setup gneesis suggested, everything to the tank and and sealand macerator to the sea cock is the best system if you routinely go offshore where you can pump out. Again, there must be a lock somewhere to prevent discharge within 3 miles. Mine has a key switch for the pump, as long as i don't leave the key on, it shoudl be legal (althoughI've yet to be boarded)

my macerator is connected off a Y at the bottom of the tank. 1 branch to the macerator, the other one to the pump out. It woudl be better to have separate pick ups at the top of the tank... at the top to avoid having "stuff" sit in the hose and separate so that you don't risk sucking air, or sea water if the sea cock is open, when pumping out. Or from the deck plate when pumping overboard. In my set up at the bottom, it's not a problem, but jsut somethign to be aware of.

3)- looks like the VF rules are meant to be ignored... my boat was retrofitted with 3 VF about 8 years ago and the plumbing for both aft heads violates all the sealand rules... both share the same pump located inthe stbd ER. from the master head, hose goes to a vac tank jsut aft of the head (almost at the stern) and from then it's a 20 or 25' run to the pump followed by another 20' to the holding tank.

but it works... although i need to use more water than normal for solids to avoid clog at the duckbill just past the vac tank...

I really like the simplicity of the VF... just a vac pump and a few duck bills...

4)- pumping out should be as easy as connecting the fitting on deck. jsut make sure your boat doens't have any creative plumbing, valve, etc...

first time I pumped out on the 53, I had not yet become familiar with the boat and tried the first pumpm out fitting i found... original one near the stern. nothign... then i found a another one amidship... nothign... then finally the one at the bow which had been connected to a new tank at the bow... so it pays to get familiar with the plumbing!

after pumping out, some flush water down the pump out hose to rinse, I usually fill all 3 heads to the rim before and then flush all that water to rinse the lines when done then pump out again...

[spartonboat1]

Order of events over several years for Y-Valve and Macerator Pumps, since bought boat in 1997:
1) "Surveyor says!"--- on Great Lakes, will be fined for Macerator Pumps, must go; Removed- I still have them...little used...sell cheap. Tied off the Y-Valve.
2) Next Surveyor says, not good enough to tie off Y-Valve, remove it and plug the old plumping Wye. Done.
3) Next Surveyor says in Canadian waters, they will fine for the plumbing Wye, even if the Y-valve has been removed, because potentially a Y-Valve could be reinstalled. So the Wye fitting with the plug is removed and the hose become direct runs to pump.

Mission accomplished. Should pass USCG or Canadian inspection on Great Lakes. Strangely enough the latest greatest marine treatment tanks are more effective that municipal sewage treatment operations, so say some reports. Don't expect them to be approved anytime soon.

Splashing this weekend...

[Gina Marie]

Genesis, thank you for that elegant reply. Holy SH................................oot.

All is well with the system now I am only going to change the heads themselves. I will live with the current configuration as it works and does not smell. I will also wait to see if your project comes to fuition next year. Then I will ask you again for your direction.

So in conclusion:

I can only pump out the holding tank. I can not dump out off shore.

I must secure the Y valve.

What is the procedure to keep your tanks fresh and what additives should I use.??????????????

Thanks Tom/Gina Marie

[Genesis]

Use no chemicals.

If you have a serious odor problem make sure the vent is not plugged, and next, there is a Raritan product called "KO" (Killz Odors) that is biological and ok to use. There is a companion product called "CP" (cleans potties) that is ok to use for cleaning the head. DO NOT use household toilet cleaners!

DO NOT put anything like bleach or other "treatment" or "cleaning" chemicals down the head. Beyond playing hell with the seals it also kills off the beneficial bacteria (aerobic) which will make the system stink even worse than it did before!

Just 'cause its ok in a septic tank does not mean its ok in a marine head. The general rule for marine heads is that beyond very small amounts of known-quick-degradable toilet paper you never put anything in them that you didn't eat first.

[MikeP]

It was written by Peggy Hall 5-6 years ago. She is pretty much the acknowledged expert on marine sanitation systems. The article has a lot of good info worth reading on the subject. It covers eveything from law to definitions to maintenance, etc. She has asked most websites to remove the article because she says it is no longer up-to-date. However, it remains excellent. She has at least one book out now on the subject; I haven't read it. The fact that the book is out may have something to do with her wanting the article removed. It used to be commonly published on the web but is now a bit hard to find.

http://www.severnriveryachtclub.org/...sanitation.htm