Nordhavn Boats

[GJH]

I agree with you 100% Spin. For one thing, I am a "Buy American" type whenever possible, especially on new products; I feel it is patriotic among other things. Obviously, I chose your strategy as to what boat to buy and what to do with it; the more I look at other boats, as at the Miami show the last couple of days, the more I am glad I did.

[Pete]

There are at least two ways for a manufacturer to establish a leadership market position. You can build a better product, with better value, and wait for a grass roots realization that you are the best of breed. Another approach is to assemble the best "Brand Image" team and declare through stunts/promotions that you are the best of breed and overprice your product just to reinforce your market image. I wonder which approach is being used by Nordhavn.

For example. The Nordhaven circumnavigation regatta. You assemble a factory team, with subject matter experts in all areas, lay out a cruise plan, select a small group of boats that are operationally inspected/tuned/serviced, escort the small selected group of owners, provide all necessary support for parts and problem resolution enroute, and the group makes it to the end of the itinerary. Then declare this is some sort of proof of brand superiority. People do this solo in home made sail boats. What group of medium quality mass produced powerboats of similar size could not do the exact same thing, given fuel availability? IMO, the Brand Image Team at Nordhavn is doing a great job. Next time you see one on the hard, take a look at the underwater hull hardware and see what you think.

Pete

[Brian Degulis]

George:

One last point that I neglected to mention is that some of the basic laminating of hulls and superstructures done in Taiwan (and I suspect happens in China) is not undertaken in climate controlled environments. In a good part of the year the humidity in that part of the world is high which leads to some wicked lamination and bonding problems.

I know that these boats are sometimes very attractive in price. I wonder if it would be a sounder decision to find a sound Hatt such as a 53MY or 56MY and refit at a reliable yard such as Jarret Bay.

I think you would have a lot less in this type of boat rather than the new Asian boat with probably much more piece of mind.

Please note, you don't see me at all interested in buying a big Asian power boat. I have had three big Asian sailboats and feel that there are limiations on what these yards can do unless you or your rep is really looking over the shoulders of the yard's team.

Spin

There isn't anything atractive about the price of a Nordhavn unless you think spending about twice what you spend on a comparable Hat atractive. You can't group the Nordhavn in with the run of the mill tawain boats it's a whole diffrent animal. Hype and branding goes only so far the Nordys bring money like no other production boat in it's class new or used. Today you could easily buy a nice 60+' twin screw Hat for a lot less money than a 46' single screw Nordy. That was true before fuel skyrocketed and it's true today and that takes more than just clever marketing. I agree with you guys about the problems with most of the tawain boats. But I've gone thru the Nordys and they're superb much better than a Hat I wish I could afford one.

Brian

[Pete]

Just a quick response to the idea that maybe Grand Banks is a quality standard. These are the boat that have close to 100% fuel tank replacement at the 15 to 20 year mark. A boat that requires cutting out the aft hull sides (port and stbd) to replace tanks does not qualify as a market leader in my opinion. They may have fixed this problem recently, do not know one way or the other, but all boats through the late 1990's had this as close to a scheduled maintenance item. A material selection problem that goes on for years and years is not impressive in the quality leadership competition.

Pete

[Maynard Rupp]

I toured the Nordhavens yesterday at the Miami Show yesterday. They are really cramped with lots of stair climbing to get through the various areas. They are well made for sure, but so are the Hatteras boats. The Tiara convertable interiors are not well made. The Nordhaven boats seem so high for their beam that I have to wonder about rolling and general center of gravity problems. They aren't pretty boats at all.

[krush]

Rarely do I see captddis and Brian disagree on something.....interesting topic!

[GJH]

I think comparing a modern Hatteras to a Nordhavn of the same vintage is an apples to oranges exercise. Compare a Nordhavn to a Hatteras LRC. I would submit that the LRCs have held their value every bit as well or better when you do the math. They are held in very high esteem by the passagemaking "trawler" community.

Non LRC Hatts are for a very different customer than the Nordhavn. The thinking mariner chooses one or the other for a particular usage. Indeed you see most Nordhavns in their full battle gear of paravanes and mulitple anchors cruising on the magenta line and tied up at the nice marinas. I think this is kind of like the guy who buys a Hummer to drive around Dallas. For coastal cruising, the Nordy to me only makes sense for the fuel economy, a not insignificant factor, period.

We have had Nordhavn couples on board who do the same type cruising we do, and inevitably the wife gives the husband "that look" when she sees the space and quality of life we have.

By the way Maynard, the Nordys have deep draft and TONS of ballast for stability purposes, plus some form of stabilization technology. They generally have a very pleasant motion in a seaway.

So don't put me in the anti-Nordhavn camp as I might have implied. They are good boats with great marketing which they back up with as-advertised performance more often than not.

[Brian Degulis]

I think comparing a modern Hatteras to a Nordhavn of the same vintage is an apples to oranges exercise. Compare a Nordhavn to a Hatteras LRC. I would submit that the LRCs have held their value every bit as well or better when you do the math. They are held in very high esteem by the passagemaking "trawler" community. (quote)

I agree with you to a degree and that is a good point. The Nordys bring considerably more than the Hat LRCs. But the Nordy's were not even in production when the Hat LRCs were discontinued (I think). In any case the Nordys are all much newer than the Hats so it's tough to compare them. But it's easy to look at both boats and see how they are built and the Nordys just beat the Hats to death. All the other tawain boats like Marine Trader Defever etc. The Hat's beat them to death but the Nordy's diffrent.

Brian

[Pete]

"But it's easy to look at both boats and see how they are built and the Nordys just beat the Hats to death."

Brian, please share some "facts" that lead you to this conclusion. Having owned several Hatteras', including our current 48 LRC, and viewed two Nordhavn's on the hard, both inside and outside, I get to a different conclusion. But always willing to learn. Please help me with some cold hard facts on qualities that matter.

Pete

[GJH]

Brian, sorry I didn't articulate it well. What I am trying to say is that if you look at the value retention of LRCs since they were built, vs how Nordhavns are retaining value since they were built, the LRCs are doing quite well. I think Nordhavn came along after the last LRCs were built, or close to it. But the shape of the depreciation curve over time looks very good for the LRCs vs just about anything else.

In both cases scarcity helps. A lot more internal and external competition for the planing hulls than the displacement trawlers. And at the high end, in my opinion, a more discerning buyer for passage makers who will pay for perceived quality and suitability to purpose, vs a lot of planing hull buyers who want max glitz for min price.

I like Pete would like to hear your analysis. At first glance, I haven't been on a Nordhavn where I was just bowled over by the quality and systems, vis a vis, say, a Hatteras. Having spent some time in the engine rooms of new Hatts over the past few days, boy they really hold their own and to my view are more ergonomically designed than the comparably sized Nordhavns I have been on. But I rate myself an amateur in this regard, so your insights would be very welcome.