Nordhavn Boats

[GJH]

Of the Taiwan and Red Chinese importers, the way Alaskan, Krogen (Trawler, not Express, different companies) Marlow, Fleming, Outer Reef, Nordhavn and to a certain extent Hargrave got their quality up was to focus production at one yard.

I've spent some time on examples of each of these, particularly a variety of Nordhavns. Superficially (since I am an amateur and wasn't conducting full surveys), the best quality seemed to be the Flemings followed by the Marlow and the Krogens. Quality stainless components and craftmanship still seems to be the achilles heel for a lot of these boats.

I always seem to be disappointed by the Nordhavns. The layouts, as noted above, tend to be rabbit warrens and the ergonomics not quite right for me. There are some things I consistently do like, such as the ground tackle set ups and Portuguese bridges.
They say some of that is due to their design for trans-oceanic passages. The quality is "good", but not like you look at a system and say, wow, this is really nice. They seem to have a lot of happy and return customers, so they must be doing somethings well. But for my style of coastal cruising, no thanks. I did like the Outer Reefs much better, but they are more of a cross between an ocean and coastal cruiser.

One issue I consistently hear from people who buy these things new is the importance of going over there at least once, preferably twice during construction and verify it is being put together the way you want it. Those who don't typically regret it. This goes well beyond the boat industry by the way, especially pertaining to Red Chinese goods. You have to have your own people over there that you trust constantly supervising the entire engineering, parts procurement, production, packing and shipment process, or you are guaranteed an unpleasant surprise when you crack open the box over here. Properly supervised, quality can be excellent, but you cannot trust the Chinese to achieve that on their own; low cost and expediency are their priorities.

That being said, Apple's various computers and Ipods and Lenovo's IBM Thinkpads are usually considered amongst the "best in class" as two quick examples of quality Red Chinese manufactured products.

Personally my wife and I tend to avoid "Made in China" products whenever possible, Ann being even more diligent about that than I.

[Pascal]

i got to check out a few Grand Alaskans last year (2001/2004, 65/75' range) and couldnt' believe the number of serious design errors these boats had. Really stupid things, some of them that could prove disastrous.

my favorite was one boat with access to the lazarette from the aft deck as well as thru a watertight door in the back of the ER. At first it looked like a good idea, except that once latched, the hatch could only be open from inside the lazarette ... So, imagine ripping a rudder after hitting a log or container... you can't get in the laz from the aft deck, you have to open the watertight door and flood your ER. Nice design.

another boat had storage compartment on the transom that were open to the lazarette with flimsy plastic catches on the doors and no seal...

the list goes on... very disapointing and typical of far east builds with quality varying from year to year depending on the yard.

for almost a year now, I've been running a taiwan built, Bill Dixon designed Jonhson 70. Johnosn, formerly HiTech, has been using the same yard for 15 or 20 years and the quality is pretty good. Obviously, they're not Hatts... but decent boats. I've crawled all over the boat doing upgrades and maintenance and except for the spare wire chase being labelled in Chinese, i havent' come across any bonehead stuff. Teh key is that they have been using the same yard for a long time.

not always the case, and i'd be a little concerned about Chinese built boat since unlike Taiwan, china is new to yacht buidling.

[Bertramp]

I was aboard a Molikai Straights (sp) trawler at the 2007 Lauderdale show. Blew me away !! Don't know where they are made, but it semed like a small ship and interior finish was gorgeous

[Brian Degulis]

The style or weather it's cramped or meets the builders hype that's all a matter of opinion. But as for quality I'd put a Nordhavn against a Hat any day and the Nordhavn will beat it hands down. They are the standard for slow displacment boats get on Yacht World and take a look at resale values and see if your Hat stands up

Brian

[MikeP]

Nordhavn has an awfully good reputation and, if I could afford a new boat, it would certainly be one I would consider. There was a 57 Nord at our marina in NY for the summer a few years back. We were aboard several times and the Admiral and I both would have swapped it for our 53 Hatt in a heartbeat. But I guess, as the old saying goes, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Re Chinese quality products...Violins. Yep, GOOD Chinese violins have consistently won recent world violin competitions over European instruments.

[spindrift]

OK Guys:

I have had three boats that were build in Taiwan. One was a Mason (which is part of the same organization PAE that builds Nordhaven), the other was a Tayana 52 which is built by the same group that builds outer reef, and the third was from Little Harbor.

The long and skinny on these boats is that the quality of the Taiwan boats varies greatly from boat to boat. The reason is that the yards use subcontract labor that varies from boat to boat. For example, you can walk into the Ta Yang yard or Tania yard and see workers with Ta Shing (they build the Nordhavens and Masons) T shirt on. I owned a 10 year old T 52 and when I pulled the headliner down, noted that all of the tabbing on the bulkheads was still green (uncured). All of the tabbing had to be redone.

I think given the lack of quality control of the Taiwan yard (I cannot speak to the mainland Chinese yards) that these boats Achilles heel is the systems, especially electrical and plumbing. I went through the process of having a custom designed 58 done by Bob Perry and bid in Taiwan. After consultation with Bob, the only way that you can build a boat over there is to have the naval architect and engineer draw some very tight specifications. You then need to hire an expat (there are a few good Ausies and Kiwis in Taiwan) and have them at the yard several times a week. They need to take pictures and provide a written weekly report weekly on the construction progress, quality, materials going into the boat, and builiding practices. The naval architect also needs to inspect the boat at 3-4 key points such has hull layup, mechanical instillation, securing the deck, and launch. You need to add in this project monitoring / management costs into the overall cost of the boat.

I know that this sounds like a pain but I think it might be worth it if you are prepared for a project. After my 52 was redone we put over 20,000 miles on her including 2 trips to the lower islands and 2 trans-atlantics.

If this all sounds like a royal pain to you, you are probably correct. Moreover, some of the respondents in this thread are correct in that many of these boats are tight. You should also note that getting at some of the equipment is very difficult as the yard workers are smaller than Americans and thus can work in tight spaces that we can't.

Cheers
Spin

[StratPlan61]

I think the Molikai Straits boats are built by Custom Steel Boats and then the interiors are completed by a custom woodworking house further north along the Eastern Coast. I had inspected one of their earlier vessels and was disappointed in the interior wood work. The steel work looked very good.

[spartonboat1]

I stand corrected about Grand Banks, the early wood boats were built in Hong Kong, that is what I was thinking about.

http://www.grandbanks.com/company/info/index.cfm

The early GB Aleutians were "wood" hulls. Worst dry rot I have ever seen was on a GM wood Aleutian, and she was pulled open for much need repairs...whatever wood they use was not to marine standards...IMHO...

[GJH]

Sparton, you are talking about the GB Alaskan, not Aleutian series, and that was 40 years ago. I would note that your experience aside, there are still a surprising number of those things around.

Pascal's post points up, and Spin's post reinforces, what I was saying about the necessity of going over there yourself and having someone over there you can trust the rest of the time to supervise. Otherwise you end up with stuff like he saw on the Alaskan. I was on one last winter, where the owner, a knowledgeable guy, took all the precautions and the boat was great. But he said if he hadn't taken those precautions, a bunch of stuff would have fallen through the cracks.

Maybe the Nordhavns I have been on were not indicative. I've always been a little let down and never wowed. I'd agree the 57 is my favorite too, layout wise. But there is no way we could live our particular cruising/live-aboard lifestyle on one. I was really disappointed at the rabbit maze of the 55 that replaced it. I dunno, there is something about their typical ergonomics that just don't "fit" me. And overall, the quality has never bowled me over either.

[spindrift]

George:

One last point that I neglected to mention is that some of the basic laminating of hulls and superstructures done in Taiwan (and I suspect happens in China) is not undertaken in climate controlled environments. In a good part of the year the humidity in that part of the world is high which leads to some wicked lamination and bonding problems.

I know that these boats are sometimes very attractive in price. I wonder if it would be a sounder decision to find a sound Hatt such as a 53MY or 56MY and refit at a reliable yard such as Jarret Bay.

I think you would have a lot less in this type of boat rather than the new Asian boat with probably much more piece of mind.

Please note, you don't see me at all interested in buying a big Asian power boat. I have had three big Asian sailboats and feel that there are limiations on what these yards can do unless you or your rep is really looking over the shoulders of the yard's team.

Spin