repower 53c

[rtrafford]

1974 53c total refit, inside and out...and i mean "total".

some of you have hopefully "been there, done that". please share insights and opinions for repowering this vessel.

Robert.

[jim rosenthal]

..by Tom Slane, who's the authority. If you want to go fast, you are going to need BIG motors. Like 1000hp per side.

[rtrafford]

yes, i spoke to tom a couple of months ago. his advice, cat 3406E, 800 hp for a 26kt cruise.

great, but with the money i'm investing throughout this project, and it's a whopper, doubt that i want to go with new generation motors.

like you (it seems), i'm a cat man, but i'm getting some friendly persuasion towards the 8v92's...had a deal on a pair of mtu 6v396, but thankfully checked with an mtu man first and was warned of low end vibration (extreme) from engines designed to run constant on gensets.

it was a deal, too. no wonder.

anyway, looking for ideas...but i'll likely be going back to tom soon for layout assistance, so i'll repose the question when i do.

[jim rosenthal]

have been around a while. You might be able to find a set of zero-time rebuilds. Look in Boats & Harbors.

[skindr1999]

There is , of course, no one answer to your question having researched extensively the subject for my 53C. If money is no issue and speed is the goal, the Man 10 cylinders are the smallest you should consider. Unless you don't mind rebuilds every 2 yrs. forget the 6 cylinder cats, remember, the more horsepower, the less life you'll get. After reviewing all my options I decided to rebuild my 12v71's and enjoy them another 10 yrs. the turbo version cuts the life in 1/2 , maintenance quadruples and only would gain about 3-4knots cruise. A set of tweaked, but not turboed 1292 would be durable, faster and long lived. Good luck.

[rtrafford]

yes, i've had someone promoting ddec 1292's. these were indeed turbo'd, however.

the 3406's have been around a while, but the new version E's are the ones that crank 800, no? i don't believe the older ones produced more than 600'ish.

[DaveP]

I would doubt the claim of a 26kt cruise with 3406's. I know of a 53C with 750hp 8V92DDEC's that only makes 21kts at cruise. And a while ago a neighbor had 1978 53C with souped up J&T 12V71TI's supposedly with 800+ HP and he only did 22ts at cruise. Of course both these boats had towers so figure on two kts better without a tower.
I have 8V92's (550hp) in my 45C and love them, but I am 8ft shorter and 24000lbs lighter (37000 VS 61000). I cruise around 24/25kts depending on the load. They are good motors if you don't push them but the DDEC's of 750hp or more are hand grenades with the pin falling out. Same thing with the souped up 12V71's of 800+ hp, tempremental and short lived.
A suggestion is if you are a CAT guy look at the new C-18's, they are sixes but hugh sixes and will give you around 1000hp per side. That ought to get you around 26-27kts at cruise even with a tower. The C-18's in a new 54 Hatt with tower give about that speed with around 30kts in the corner.
Another option is the 8V2000 if you like Detroits. they are just over 900hp, supposedly give good life and are dependable. THe V-10 MANS are good too at 1050hp per motor and give a smaller footprint than either the CAT or Detroit. Just depends on your pocketbook and your need for speed, there are good motors out the (new Generation) that fit the bill but you will pay for them. I have heard that new C-18 with gears go for around 90K each, plus removal of the old motors and installation. Plus you may need new shafts, wheels and struts. BIG bucks...... Good luck in your shopping.

[rtrafford]

the 26 knots came from slane. i haven't witnessed it. one difference, though, is it has been my experience that detroits give less power % at cruise than cats. cats tend to give you more juice at 80% throttle.

who knows, though, without a dyno. every motor has it's quirks.

yes, i understand that the tweaked detroits are ticking bombs. certainly don't want that! am indeed a cat man. lots of work to do, therefore plenty of time to shop. i do not believe, however, that i'll see 61000# when she hits the water.

[53cSouthernBelle]

Been reading the post with interest. One comment on 53c weight. When I bought mine it was as it left the factory plus a full tower and assorted junk collected aboard. At one point of the restoration the boat was in the water stripped down to bare bones, no interior at all, no wiring, no plumbing, nothing but engines, tanks, fiberglass, and interior sole. This changed the waterline only 1 inch. Point is the weight of these boats is in the fiberglass. Unless you grind half the hull away you are not going to be able to reduce the weight of these boats that much. That is the blessing of this boats strength and the curse if you are trying to go fast.

[DaveP]

I think Tom may have been referring to the 53C he redid as an express. It had Macks in it I think and did make good speed. But that is a lot different from a full convertible especially with tower. THe 61000lbs is the published weight from Powerboat Guide right from Hatteras' brochures.

The hull design on the older Hatts does not lend itself to speed. You have a hull like mine, single chine, round bottom, with keel probably. I know I need almost 800hp per side to get a 27kt cruise. There is a 45C in NC that has the hopped up 8V92DDEC's and still barely makes over 30kts WOT. I think Tom has experimented with lifting strakes and flat planning surfaces on some of his redo's. He could probably discuss that with you, I know he has engineers and naval architects on site.

I still think a minimum of 900 HP per side to get you to 26kt cruise. Unless you get her to Tom and he modifies the hull. Nothing wrong with a 23-24kt cruise, still respectable and probably get 26-27 in the corner if you need it.

[skindr1999]

Lovers of the 53C went through a period of extensive restoration and renovation of their beloved vessels in the 90's. At the time they believed this to be a good investment, given the amenities and potential of this great vessel. Guess what? They're shocked when the market never appreciated their efforts. Unless you plan to have your vessel to enjoy until you die, or don't mind a loss of over $100,000 ,overhaul your Detroits, generators, wiring, etc. and put your investment in waterfront property, (just not in Fl.).As you'll find out from your ins. co. it's still a 20-30 yr. old vessel no matter what powers it.

[saltshaker36]

The 53 express that Slane built for Mack ended up heavier than the original 53C. I believe the engines are around 950HP each and I believe she can cruise in around 28-30kts and turn around 34kts in the corner. Tom could tell you exactly but I believe this is close. As far as the 3406E's @ 800HP, they have been around a while and I have never heard anything bad about them. They are alot lighter and generate a lot more HP at cruise than the Detroits. I looked into repowering a 53C and came up with about 25-26kt cruise and 29-30kt WOT with the 3406E's. There is a 53C with 900HP Cummins that claims a 28kt cruise. If this is true than 26kts with the Cats should not be a problem considering they are significantly lighter than the Cummins.

If you are doing such an extensive refit, why not send the boat to Slane Marine? I did a "simple" repower to my 46C a few years ago and wish I had given the job to Tom. I can't think of any reason why I would do a total refit to a Hatteras and not bring it to Slane. In the end you'll know the job was done right, and most likely be less expensive than going to a yard that is not as experienced with extensive refits. And unless you are going to a yard like Rybovich or Merrit, when it comes time to sell the boat, saying you have a custom Hatteras that was built by Slane Marine will be worth more than one done by an unknown yard.

Jack Sardina

[rtrafford]

excellent points, all. i am very confident that 800 HP of cat is much more thrust at cruise than 800 HP of detroit. i also feel confident that a 53c rebuilt with intelligence is going to be somewhat lighter than a production boat, regardless of how it may be effected at the water line. yes, there is plenty of glass in the hull. further, i am adding to that, strengthening some identified production flaws. but the engines will also be significantly lighter, the genset will be significantly lighter, the bridge, the interior, and the house. i would not at all be surprised to find the resulting vessel weighs 5000 pounds less than it was when it came off the line.

my intent is to keep this boat for an extended period of time, not to sell her as a custom yacht. when the time comes to sell her, i'm quite certain that the workmanship, style, and character will speak for itself, although i am also intelligent enough to know that my buyer will be a needle in a haystack. that's purely the nature of selling a boat of any sort, especially a customized version, and this one will be obviously customized.

more, i doubt seriously that slane's crews are any more talented or ethical in their workmenship than the fine collection that i have aboard...a job taking place on a private piece of property, not a yard built to bilk.

it's a very rewarding process. i'm getting things done specifically the way i believe that they should be handled based on plenty of experience, and in the end will have something that i not only appreciate considerably, but something that i know quite intimately, too.

yes, sending it to tom was a nice thought. first issue was that he's in nc while i'm in sofla. i can't be a daily active participant in that climate. here i can and am.

second issue was that there were things i wanted done to the boat to fit my personal tastes that i discovered throught he active effort of the daily project, items that i had viewed differently prior to becoming involved.

now, when all is said and done, i may well find myself outsourcing some of the interior craftsmanship to the folks at rybo. i know them, have relations, and it is indeed quite close.

can't describe how much fun this is. you will know if you've been in my shoes, however.

[53cSouthernBelle]

Having already done exactly what you are doing to a 53c I totally agree with your comments of how fun a project it can be. The 53c is a great classic boat. As great as the new boats are, sitting side by side at the dock people still bypass the new one to ask me questions about the renovations of my classic 53c. I haven't fooled myself into believing it was a great investment but for me it was the right project. I'll never get my money out of her (or at least my next of kin won't) but it's been worth it. I don't think you'll have a problem loosing 5000 lb. especially with newer light weight engines. Still not sure you'll see the speed you expect with a 8.5% weight reduction. The drag created by that large keel is significant. There is a 53c here in WL with 1000hp Luggars. The owner tells me he can do 28 knot wide open, 25 cruise. It would be great to hear from other owners that have done engine swaps to see what profermance they actually got. Post us some pictures of your project. Good luck and have fun.

[jim rosenthal]

I think there are a lot of good yards with good craftsmen who only charge for what they actually do, like Tom's outfit. The advantage of going to Tom's shop is that all they do is refit Hatteras yachts- they are not a boatyard. They have more experience than anyone else. Their name adds value to the boat.
With all that, there is no reason why you can't do this yourself, have a blast, and end up with a great boat. As far as the speed goes, we all know the 53C is not a rocket, and it has less to do with the weight than it does with the hull design. It doesn't have a lot of flat planing area for its' size and weight, I don't believe. There is a lot more potential speed in the 45/46 hull, especially the newer version, as someone mentioned earlier.
I think the 3406E Cats have a good reputation. Plus, they have been around long enough that factory remans are available with warranty. Try Alban or T&S in Maryland. The figure I got was 35-40K each, bobtail, I think with warranty. Figure gears would add 7-10 each side. I believe they are lighter than 8v92s.

[rtrafford]

jim, any thoughts on the 3412's? just had a pair offered to me with gears at an acceptable price. 100hp, i believe. i know they're significantly bigger than the 6's, but perhaps more predictable life, too?

[rtrafford]

should read "1100 hp".

[Davep]

The 3412 series is a real good motor. Especially in the variant you are talking about. The newer 3412's the E's are up to 1400hp so you will have excellent longevity with the 1100hp ones. I am not sure how much bigger footprint they have over the 12V71's but it shouldn't be too much. The only potential problem is the height, they may not fit under your floorboards. You can probably call Tom Slane and he can tell you right off if they will fit. My guess is you are good to go..:)

The other thing is power, with those motors you ought to easuly get your 28kt cruise, maybe a little more. There is a 55C (similar hull) with 1100hp 12V92's that claims a 29kt cruise and a 33kt top on Tachtworld.

I'd jump at those motors, new they run over 100K each. just remember your fuel economy is going to be in the hole, those motors burn better than 70gl per hour each. That's a lot of fuel to get 30kts..:)

[jim rosenthal]

...I have (obviously) never owned a set of these..the pair by themselves probably weigh what my 36 convertible does. They have a good reputation, though, and my Cat dealer friend speaks well of them. Essentially they are powering most new Hatteras yachts. I would get a formal engine survey on them and dyno sheets if you can. Done by a Cat dealer if at all possible- they are a big investment. Having said all that, they are a far better choice for repower of a 53SF, if they will fit, than 12v92TAs. Cat can provide you with size info which will tell you if they will fit. Hard to imagine they would not, if 12v71TIs would.
It sounds like you would need to increase the shaft size...the power is doubled. And the engine beds etc etc. They can probably use th same size seawater intakes and exhaust pipes, but the location may change. Good luck.

[rtrafford]

all thru-hulls have been reglassed. all running gear is off the boat and is ready to be remanned. the salon sole is out of the boat, ready to be rebuilt. there is very little standing in the way of anything that i want to do here...

while i recognize that the size of the engines is quite large in comparison to the 6's out there, i would think that down-angle gears would allow most sizes to slide in nicely.

a boating friend is trying to convince me to go with brand new c-18's, and the weight comparison of 5500 to 3500 is certainly an attention grabber, but the thought that the c18 is maxed at the 1100 range compared to the 3412 that now puts out quite a bit more power...knowing that your engine isn't on theline is a good feeling, and i'm not certain that the weight is that big of an issue with this boat?

[saltshaker36]

The 3412E's have a great reputation for economy and longevity and @1100HP should last a whole lot longer than 12v92TA's or 12v71TI's. As a comparison for fit:
3412E's @1200HP are 71"L x 52"H x 53W and weigh 5100Lbs (with out gears) should be around 95" with gears depending on which gear you use. Fuel burn is 61GPH @2300rpm and 33.5 @1900rpm
12V71TI's are 60"L x 46"W x 52"H w/o gears and 81"L with TD gears. 5100lbs w/o gears and almost 5500lbs with the TD gears.

If the 3412's fit, that would make one sweet package. With the right gears and running gear she should have no problem topping 30kts. I would check with Slane to see if they would fit and get some more accurate speed calculations. If those engines are good and as you say "priced right" you could one step closer to a cleaner, faster and quieter 53C.

[rtrafford]

jim, re-reading earlier comments, by no means did i intend to imply that slane was anything but the leader in his niche industry. my only problem was location, and i wanted to be an integral part of this project.

sobelle, you are someone i'd love to bend an ear with...having done precisely what i'm doing now, i'd love to learn from your mistakes!! any chance?

[jim rosenthal]

Well, if I were doing this, and I wish I were, I would probably go with new C18s, is it? with 1000hp each. The weight savings is two tons or thereabouts, and the access to the engines for service is considerable. Why don't you have a CAT engineer come down and look at the boat, they would probably be delighted to spend the day going over the available engine options with you. If I had a choice of new C18s or used 3412Es, I think I would go with the new engines. There's something to be said for a warranty, the chance of an extended warranty, and being more easily able to get to the powerplants for service.
Incidentally, from the boatdiesel website, the largest E-rated CAT appears to be about 3000hp, the biggest marine diesel there is over 9000 hp and resembles a locomotive engine. Except the locomotive engine is probably smaller. Bunker oil, anybody? they come even bigger than that....:rollin

[rtrafford]

yes, the 3412's are the size of a small third world country in comparison to the c18's...and there is something to be said for "brand new"...boat show is coming up.

[53cSouthernBelle]

rtrafford,

If there is anything I can answer for you let me know. A picture of my 53 as it left the paint booth is posted here and a email link. It sounds like my restoration was similar to yours but I didn't repower. The two biggest improvements in my opinion are that I built a custom flybridge and cockpit access to the engine room. The flybridge is MUCH bigger than stock which is really nice. Not having to go through the floor or that little hole under the steps to get into the engine room is really nice as well. Another thing that really sets off these boats is to eliminate the window frames and do built in widows like the custom boat. This is a lot of work but it really updates the look. Contact me if I can help in any way.

[rtrafford]

If there is anything I can answer for you let me know.

lots of things, i'm sure, will come up. where did you do your work? where is your boat located? love to see it!

A picture of my 53 as it left the paint booth is posted here and a email link.

where?

The two biggest improvements in my opinion are that I built a custom flybridge and cockpit access to the engine room.

customizing the house to eliminate the sharp angles, new windows- frameless and tear-drop shape, and custom flybridge to add space and comfort. love to understand more about your access arrangement to the engines!


yes, this is a lot of work...and a lot of money. i began by sealing all of the through-hulls, sandblasting and grinding the hull, glassing in new, custom air vents, and moving the exhaust from the sides back into the transom (previous owner's idea). lots of sanding, lots of faring, and lots of patience....about ready to paint the hull and epoxy coat the bottom. rebuilt the transom door to act as a single unit and incorporated hinges instead of the dreaded piano hinge.

she should get her new clothes within the week, weather permitting. then the house will get finished, topsides all dried in, and we'll prepare to move her to the water where we can build the bridge.

[53cSouthernBelle]

Boat is in Wilmington, NC
I did everything but final painting myself
Picture is here at Sam's Marine "Owner's Website"
I come into the engine room through a door in the cockpit tackle center right between the engines. This involves moving the salon door, and the ladder cutout to the flybridge. Lot's of work but worth it. Look at the boat picture and you'll see how the windows and flybridge upgrade changed the profile

[rtrafford]

my flybridge is at the landfill, the aft skirt was cut off due to poor construction, and the aft bulkhead was taken out long before i ever saw the boat. my options here are currently wide open (literally).

i purchased a sliding door system from the larger hatteras fleet, but i can mount it anywhere. do you have any photos of your engine entry system that you can share? i would love to avoid entering via the salon.

[im rosenthal]

...like you needed more. Yanmar is coming into the market with two large diesels built in cooperation with Scania. (Wartsila was trying to get these engines into the US market a while back and as far as I know didn't get very far). Yanmar has a large dealer network and excellent reputation. Their big engines come in a 6cyl at 720hp, used in a 46 Bertram which was in "Yachting" this month, and also in a V8 at 920 hp which might work for you. Yanmars tend to be lighter than average diesels, they are very reliable, and I suspect they would be very inerested in getting a pair into a Hatteras. What they cost, I don't know, but they are usually quite competitive.

[DaveP]

I think Jim has a good idea. If you are worried about cost maybe give Mack Boring in NJ a call and see what kind of a deal you can get. You might want to inquire if you are interested in it if they would like to use your Hatt as a test bed or prototype for the performance of the new engines. It may require a little give on your part to let them photograph, monotor, and advertise your boat. Maybe even bring potential customers down to see the installation. But it may be a cheap way to get some brand new, warrantee engines anfd at a greatly reduced cost.
I know dearlers do this sometimes. Many years ago my Grandfather got a set of prototype J&T 6-71TI's at 450hp each for a song. J&T give him the motors at their cost, installed and maintained them, and all he had to do was let Rudder Magazine come down and do an article on the boat and engines, then every few weeks allow J&T reps to bring prospective customers down the see the boat and go for a short ride. It was a sweet deal, maybe Mack Boring would be open to something like that, for the exposure.

[53cSouthernBelle]

If you give me an email address I'll send you some pics of how I did the engine room access if you are interested.

[rtrafford]

rtrafford@demodoctorinc.com

[rtrafford]

choices, choices, but time is on my side...

any input on how to garner more information on these future options?

[rtrafford]

crews have completed the insertion of the bow thruster tube, the sides are primed and ready for paint, and today the new epoxy barrier will be applied to the hull with a first coat of bottom paint. inside, the engine room and lazarette are being awlgripped, the new steering platform has been installed and the stringers reinforced aft, the exhaust systems are being installed through to the engine room, and we're nearing time to put the cockpit back together. a carpenter has begun to make the mold for the new windshield curve (and eyebrow removal), and the new hatches are all complete.

progress... (http://thedrsoffice.com/boat/hat.htm)

[rtrafford]

making headway. the new windshield is in the mold and should be finished in a couple of days. they'll also lay up a skin for the front of the flybridge, matching the curve of the windshield. purchased an original bridge from slane, and he's making a console for me that, well, i'm rather excited about.

side window templates are made, and those should be made during the next week or two. i'm still hoping to slide the cockpit deck back into the boat late next week.

SoBelle, i'm making a cockpit entry to the engine room, but it'll be ont he port side requiring access over the port shaftlog. i purchased a sliding door system from Sam's off a larger hat, and this combined with the cockpit fuel tank prohibits a center entry without intruding on the main salon.

now, to find a set of 3406E's......

[jim rosenthal]

You know, I am supposed to go to the Annapolis Boat Show tomorrow, if there are a pair of 3406Es sitting around and the CAT guys aren't looking, I'll try to sneak them out of the back of the tent. :rollin , with a five-finger discount. :lol

[rtrafford]

hell, if the cat guys aren't looking, grab two C32's, and i'll cruise 40...

buying two 41 projects today. love the pain.

[rtrafford]

progress continues...set up to install a set of deere 12.5 700's in a few months, their first two engines of this line. they've already completed the first 5000 hours on the dyno, and the result was an overwhelming success. now they'll modify the aftercooler, cooling system, and turbo to meet production specs...

side windows are being completed this week. new console from slane arrived along with an original bridge which we'll modify using the same curved mold for the front windshield. by mid december the house should be complete...let's hope.

[rtrafford]

here she is as of 12/15/04. when i return from the mountains i should find that the aft side sections have been cut out and replaced, and the points where they tie into the new sun shield completed.

note the side venting...

http://thedrsoffice.com/boat/hatteras/HPIM0002.JPG