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View Full Version : Major insurance premium increases - ideas for other company?



Genesis
01-10-2005, 07:52 PM
I've been with Boat/US for a looong time with my boats.

They renewed my smaller boat with a reasonable (roughly 5%) premium increase in November.

I just got my renewal statement for my 45C.

The premium increase they are demanding is FIFTY PERCENT.

Considering that I had ZERO damage during the storms (mostly because I took steps to mitigate the risks) I'm suddenly looking at an outrageous bill for coverage.

Looking for options. Anyone have good people to call, independant brokers preferred, that (1) know Hatteras boats, and (2) have a rational clue about the fact that SOME owners just don't let their boats get thrashed by a storm, we do everything in our power to AVOID such losses?

BTW, I just got my renewal for my HOUSE insurance. Yes, it went up. However, it wasn't much - about 4% - and I DO live on the water.

We were in the direct impact path for Ivan, but once again, I did everything in my power to prevent damage, and had zero claims on any of my property as a consequnece of the storm.

Genesis
01-10-2005, 07:57 PM
... about the Boat/US renewals.

They have added a specific exclusion/limitation for property damage which you may be responsible for in the event of a named storm. The limit of their liability for this damage is now $10,000 irrespective of the limits on your policy.

This one is ugly, as essentially ALL storage/slip agreements require you to be responsible for any property damage your vessel causes to the marina's facilities.

The consequence of this clause is to effectively void the Florida law that makes "forced removal" during a named storm contrary to public policy and thus illegal.

It also will act to make transient dockage during a named storm impossible to secure, as nobody will be willing to allow you to tie up in such a situation knowing that there is no recovery possible for them if your vessel breaks loose (even due to something such as a dock structural failure!) and causes damage to the facilities.

You are at VASTLY higher risk anchoring out during a named storm than you are tied up to a solid transient (or permanent) dock - this clause will effectively force owners into open water with their anchors, because if you break free THERE your property damage coverage is good up to the limit of your policy.

jim rosenthal
01-10-2005, 08:19 PM
..for us all. The latest issue of SEAWORTHY mentioned this; in their usual glossy language which is supposed to make it easier to swallow. I think my renewal date is in May- can't wait to see it especially as after a long argument (see prior posts) BoatUS just finally agreed to up the agreed value to something more consistent with what my Hatteras is actually worth...
Tom Slane knows of a company in Philadelphia which is comfortable insuring older Hatteras yachts- has done several of the boats he refit at values consistent with the huge labor and materials that went into them. He can tell you the name of the company; I didn't hang on to it. I don't know of anyone else. They are not primary insurers, though- so if their reinsurers took large losses the premiums will be big as well.
The only way around the issue of the property value mess seems to be to keep the boat at your own dock at your own house. Most of us, regrettably, don't have that option. Good luck, to you and all of us, Karl.

Nonchalant1
01-10-2005, 09:36 PM
I have my insurance (1978 53MY) through a primary underwriter called National Marine Underwriters. They were considerably lower cost than others. However, they would only insure it for "market" value even though my boat is worth above their "market value". I'm adding Niaiad stabilizers this Spring, so that'll put me on my own even more if it's ever "totaled".

captddis
01-11-2005, 12:20 AM
I can't wait to see my premiums either. In 30 years I have never had a claim on anything! My boats , vehicles, home or business. All I get in exchange is astronomical premiums. I too take all precautions and keep the boats behind my house in a protected canal with a 22 ft wide slip. I bought the boat in VA the premium was 1250.00 in FL it went to 3500.00 with the no loss credit. My home has gone up from 380.00 in 91 to 3000.00 ++ in 03. The house has been here since 1959 and never had water inside. What happened to all the premiums that were collected all those years that were supposed to be reinvested? In spite of all the whining I have never seen a poor insurance man. Maybe a boaters co op could be formed that would only insure responsible boaters.
I have been with Boat U/S for 20 years, but I am going to shop around this year.

Docs Holiday
01-11-2005, 12:22 AM
Hey guys I just renewed my insurance on my Chris Craft 501(sorry but I follow your posts since most of the systems on Docs Holiday are similar to the Hats-ie 6v92 DD) Boat us quoted me $8,000 so I renewed with Zurick Insurance through Ken Severance Insurance Agency-281-333-3100, for $5,000-includes coastal coverage from Maine to Brownsville, TX-Hope this helps.

Trojan
01-11-2005, 01:19 AM
Thirty years!Your a bad risk.I know the feeling.I HAD an insurance company tell me that I was a bad risk.Because the law of averages says I should have had a claim long before this so I am due and wanted to raise my premium.What happened to the safe operator reward?I have a new insurance company now.Bill

pirate1960
01-11-2005, 01:08 PM
It is no fun to have your yacht totalled. I just received my first check, as I am convinced that Boat U.S. / Continental Casualty wiated until Dec 30 th dispurse funds, while I had to continue paying the note on the boat since Ivan. But, Boat U.S. has paid every penny of our claim, for that I am grateful. I have no complaints in this regard.

As for being responsible boaters, and somehow knowing more than anyone else about protecting your vessel, I hope you nothing but the best of luck in the future. When a BIG storm hits, your boat is going to get damaged, regardless of what you do, if it should happen to be under the eyewall of one of these big storms.

My 58'MY weighed about 80,000 lbs and was tossed on to land like a toy, as was MANY other boats. My boat was not totalled by the storm, rather it was destroyed by the salvage company, hired by BOAT US, who had no idea of lifting a boat that was mostly on its side.

When you have a larger boat, the options for protecting these boats become less and less, as you may perhaps find in the future.

When your boat sits in Perdido Key, good luck on guessing which way the storm is heading. I hope the day never comes that you see your 45 convertible laying on its side in the trees, but it can and does happen.

I have many pictures of boats of all sizes tossed about and destroyed. The latest BOAT US magazine pictures is nothing compared to what happened in Perdido/Orange Beach.

I am grateful, for my only loss was a big hunk of fiberglass boat, not my family and not my home.

The boat is replaceable, which it will be.

What ever your premium maybe, it is worth it when you sustain a loss such as my own.

PascalG
01-11-2005, 01:25 PM
seaworthy indeed mentioned 50 to 60% increases in florida... my policy renews in sept so at least i got a few months...

the frustrating part of this is that we are paying for the actions, or lack of action, of many many boat owners who did nothign to protect their boats.

Many did what they could but too many did not. The situation was certainly a little different for charley and ivan, but when you look at the devastation on the east coast during Frances and Jeanne, many of these boats could have been saved by simply moving them south. Thinking that they were safe at floating docks on a wide expense of water was insane...

one of the boating magazine had an aritcle mentioning a large sportish sunk at an exposed dock while the owner was sitting in a hotel room in Ft Lauderdale... We are paying for this irresponsible behavior.

I saw many boats in my marina, unattended, unprepared. Canvas, sails, all exposed. both jeanne and Frances passed well north but ti was just like these guys were hoping to loose their boats. i spent 5 days in the keys for slow moving Frances... with both the maxum 37 and the hat. ... between fuel and docks, that was well over $ 1000 but since i had the option I just wouldn't consider leaving even the then unsold Maxum sitting at the dock.

The insurance and marine indusry also needs to take a hard look at marina construction. wider slips, solid docks, breakwaters even would cost far less in the long run than paying claims. yes I know.. how can I dare suggesting dumping rocks and concrete on "sensitive" grass beds...

i hope all of those who find good coverage at better cost will post info here so that we can all benefit.

pascal
miami, fl
70 53my

Genesis
01-11-2005, 01:52 PM
... well, I hear that.

However, I also know several people who live here in Destin, had yachts over in the Pensacola/Perdido/Orange Beach area, who did NOTHING when the storm came.

They could have started making preparations on SUNDAY, like I did, had the house boarded and ready to go MONDAY, dealt with the boat(s), and then rode it out or ran away, as they felt appropriate.

There were several hundred boats that ran into the ditch between Destin and Panama City and anchored up in there, along with tying to the trees. Of those, I think there were two that were driven hard aground. The rest were fine. Why? A 60 foot high cliff has a lot to do with it - the storm goes screaming over the top of you. The downside? You have to stay on board. I didn't do that because I had a house AND KID to worry about, as I'm a single parent. Without the kid, I would have sat up in the ditch.

I ran to Panama City and tied up. Tornadoes nearly got me (there were three just a few thousand feet from where I was!) but they missed. Now there's nothing you can do about a tornado - but there is about a hurricane.

Safe harbor is difficult to find around here. But there are alternatives, and far too many people don't use them. From Pensacola west you're screwed unless you run up the Tom Bigby EARLY, because you will get trapped against a lee shore over towards LA. So, what stops you from running up the Tom? Other than deciding to do it early and possibly wasting the trip for a storm that doesn't come, that is......

I had two boats that went through this storm. Both took zero damage. A "friend" of mine with a BRAND NEW $600,000 Regal in Perdido did nothing - he was totalled, of course. He gets a $600,000 check, I get my insurance premium raised by 50%. The 10% "no loss' credit is nucking futs - the insurance companies are raping those of us who put our homes and nuts on the line to protect our boats. He doesn't give a tinker's damn about the boat, he liked the check - he just ordered a $1.3M Azimut to replace the "little" Regal. What the f%ck does he care?

I, on the other hand, like my boat. It may only be insured for $250, but I know damn well I can't replace it for that money, when one considers what I've invested both in time and money. I know Gigabite like the back of my hand, and if I lose her to a storm I'm going to cry - the money is just not enough to replace the loss. So when the storm comes, I'm going to make my best effort, and if I'm wrong, then I am. But I'll be damned if I - or my vessel - are going down without a fight.

You want my opinion? The "no loss" credit after a series of storms like this, if you were in the affected [/i], should be FIFTY PERCENT. Go ahead and charge those who DID suffer losses appropriately - whether it was due to lack of action or just bad luck, they got paid.

I didn't get paid and for both my action and good fortune, but now I get raped. Those who had bad luck (or took no or inadequate action) don't get raped any worse than I do, but they are the ones who drove up my costs. This is purely and simply wrong.

Then to add insult to injury you have the loss of protection by the 'property damage' limitation. This change may lead me to sell my boat, because it means that I am no longer in complience with my umbrella policy for that risk, which requires a $300k underlying liability limit. Its entirely possible that this change in the policy could lead to me being out-of-pocket for six-figures worth of money in a subsequent storm, or be forced to anchor out irrespective of my judgment of the risks in doing so.

This change is going to cause more losses for the insurance companies, as it will bias an owner's decision against staying in port when storms threaten. Anyone with significant assets is not going to double up and stay at dock given this limitation. I know that I most certainly will not, since with this change if I break loose from anchorage and do $100k worth of damage to someone's seawall or house the insurance pays, but if I remain at my slip and have the same thing happen it comes out of my wallet.

For my small boat I sunk 6" lead anchors into my driveway, then bolted the boat to the trailer and the trailer to the driveway with 5/8" BBB chain - heavier than you use for anchornig your boat! It held in sustained 120mph winds and surge that was up to the top of the bunks. Yes, my driveway was flooded and so was my garage. But my boats - and house - survived undamaged. Instead of the flimsy 1/2" plywood, I went out SUNDAY and got 3/4", and had it cut, fitted and up the next day.

I posted a video of the storm and what it looked like over the top of my dock behind the house. I have insufficient water to keep my Hatt there, or I would. However, I also overengineered the dock, with pilocks, upsize pilings, through-bolted crossbraces and other engineering improvements that cost extra money. Out of all of the docks on this piece of shoreline, mine was the only one that survived undamaged (ok, I lost two covering boards) despite 18 hours of being pounded well above the level of the boards by surge and waves that had breached Okaloosa Island and then had 7+ more miles of open fetch before it got here. When the water receded there was a 2x6 NAILED into my pilings at CHEST level off the dock's boards - driven by the storm - from someone else's dock that broke up.

It took a crowbar to get it loose.

Insurance companies should consider that those of us who live in the immediate impact area, yet manage to avoid getting not only totalled but suffer any loss at all, deserve something other than being bent over the table sans lubricant. While luck is certainly a factor, its not all luck.

Next time do you think I'm going to start preparing for the storm on SUNDAY, four days out when it might not hit me at all, when I know that I will be punished for doing so?

What do you think?

skindr1999
01-11-2005, 01:57 PM
I also have enjoyed the so. fl. lifestyle for over 40 yrs. and wouldn't live anywhere else. when a Hurricane is imminent since I live on the water, I'm forced to evacuate my home, board up as best I can, put what few things will fit in my trunk , take my family and leave for an inland motel during the duration, with the realization that I may never see my home again. Does anyone honestly think I could possibly spend more than a few hours securing my boat? Believe me, it's not for lack of caring but about priorities during a life threatening event. Additionally, Insurance premiums are projected based on an analysis of future potential for loss, not on one's lack of prior claims. It's unfortunate but true despite one's protection of his property he'll pay if the future looks threatening.

skip smith
01-11-2005, 02:14 PM
I've posted this before and understand that they will not take boats after a certain year however I have a 40' aft cabin Hat 1987 and have had good luck with Marine Underwriters in Pawleys Island S.C. Bob Kinsey @ 800-637-2147 is the contact. Rates are below what Boat US quoted by a good 15 to 20%. They used to be here in N.J. and moved south. I've known people who have 20 plus years of exp with them and would not even think of switching. Hope this helps!!!

PascalG
01-11-2005, 02:36 PM
a few hours is more than some have spent on preparing their boats...

even though I now live aboard, my wife and kids live ahosre so I still have to worry about a condo (Key Biscayne is an evac zone), business, etc...

for Frances, once business/home preparation were completed, I took the boat to the Keys. My wife and kids went to her mother's, or in previous evacs to whatever option was best, incl hotel on the west coast. this has to be done early to avoid traffic issues...

when all that is done, leaving with a car or with the boat doesn't make any difference... it's just a matter of doing it early enough to avoid any bridge lockdown.

I can understand the Home Comes First argument when you have the option of staying to protect your property, otherwise leave with your boat.

Responsibility is becoming less and less important nowadays as increasingly large number of people count on something (insurance, FEMA, etc...) to bail them out. Living near the water comes with additional responsibilities... Build the right way, plan ahead, etc...

Genesis is right... no claim discounts should be higher for those who had no claims after a named storm hit their area.

pascal

Genesis
01-11-2005, 03:28 PM
A few hours?

I spent four days getting ready for Ivan, between house and two boats. FOUR DAYS.

That for a storm that MIGHT not have hit us. At all. I knew that, but I also knew that if it DID hit us, it was going to wreak unholy-he|| on everything within 100 miles or more.

The marina where I was threw me out at NOON the day before it hit. I was already well-secured there, having done that TWO DAYS PRIOR, and would have likely rode it out just as well there as I did in Panama City. I was more exposed in PC in terms of wind/wave action than I was where I originally was laying.

What the marina WANTED me to do was go up around the corner and anchor. They even "offered" me a ride back in once I was "secured." NOT ON YOUR LIFE was my response. A dockmate of mine did exactly that on their recommendation, someone fouled him in the storm (who knows who it was - there were 100+ boats anchored in that cove), he got loose and pounded up against a bridge piling for eight hours - the result was a ripped open rubrail from bow to midships on the port side on a brand new 42 footer. He's damn lucky he didn't roll and sink. As a new owner with little experience he lacked the knowledge to say "bite me" to that "recommendation". I, on the other hand, did not.

I had plenty of dock clearance laterally where I was to deal with surge, over 300' of 3/4" line to make fast with, lots of fire hose for chafe protection and was spider-webbed to prevent any single piling or line failure from screwing me. I also had all my canvas down, all my gauges and electronic doors taped, the interior secured, and was fully ready to "rock and roll." If I was not going to be able to stay there, I was in no way going to remain in the Destin area where there are no good holding grounds - I was going to run as far as I could in the time available and find the best place possible to hole up, all things considered, and that's exactly what I did.

Had the marina told me they wanted me "out" a day earlier, I would have gone to Appalachicola and sat it out there, or run down to Tampa and sat in the Clearwater City Marina basin. With two days warning and the wind at my back, as it would have been, I could have easily made Tampa. That basin is around TWO 90 degree bends and is quite well protected, although the docks themselves are concrete floaters and not my choice to tie up to - so I would have anchored. The latter two choices would have led to the floors in my home being ruined, because we would have not been here to keep ahead of the attempted flooding. However, if that notice was given, that's what I would have done - it was clear at that point that Ivan was not going into Tampa, and that the odds of it getting close enough to Appalachicola to do serious damage were miniscule.

People that want to argue that they have only a "few hours" to prepare for a storm are full of it. Yes, this means you will prepare for storms that DO NOT hit you - I did it THREE TIMES this last summer, and only once did we actually get hit in the face. The other two were complete non-events; I didn't even need to double up lines for either of them, in the end.

It is manifestly unfair that people who intentionally live in a hurricane zone (that'd be us in Florida, on the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts), know the damn things come from time to time, see there's one out there that MIGHT get you, and do NOTHING until 24 hours before landfall get treated EXACTLY the same way as those of us who get ready several days before a possible strike with full knowledge that 2 times out of 3 we're not going to get hit at all - but in all three cases, we're as well-protected as we can be from the possible - and eventual - actual hit.

Insurance is not for avoidable losses that you walk away from in order to collect a check, but that is exactly how far too many boat owners treat these storms.

Traveler 45C
01-11-2005, 03:43 PM
Genesis,

Why and how did your marina kick you out? I thought that was illegal here in Fl.

Greg

Genesis
01-11-2005, 04:16 PM
.....illegal in Florida.

They simply said that it would "impair" our business relationshp (aka they were not going to renew my slip contract) if I did not leave, and that they were doing it for the safety of their docks (as opposed to the safety of my boat!)

Yet another dodge-ball game around the clear intent of the law, which, incidentaly, is precisely what this change to the "property damage" clause is in Boat/US's insurance binder.

I guess I should be used to people playing games with the clear intent of the law by now, but it still gets me pissed off when people do that sort of thing.

I don't particularly mind that the Marina wanted me to move, even though I do think it was a wrong call, that I would have been fine where I was, and that for some who DID take their advice, it turned out badly.

What I do mind is that they knew good and damn well that I was prepared to ride it out there TWO DAYS PRIOR, and said NOTHING to me at that time. That little stunt voided my ability to get up and run far enough away that there would have been zero risk to the boat, yet I could have still made it home before the storm hit. Had I known three days out they were going to do that I might have run to Tampa or Appalachicola and then DROVE home - and would have made it in plenty of time to be here when the Hellfury arrived.

As things stood it turned out to be the best thing they could have done. On returning the pilings were intact, but major parts of the decking leading to the dock where I was slipped was destroyed, making access from land impossible. Then they thought I'd pay "full price" going forward for a slip that was, effectively, a 4-pole mooring (albiet with them providing "water taxi" service) until they could make repairs - judging from the extent of the damage, and how quickly people were on making those repairs in the week that followed, I figured it would be months. Since I dive more often than fish, "taxi" service just won't do if you want to actually USE your boat - how are you going to haul several hundred pounds of gear over on a water taxi easily? Oh, they also thought that they'd assess a "hurricane charge" for their people "standing watch" during the storm too. The latter was NOT in the contract, of course. Now I wouldn't have minded paying a reasonable amount for their OT expense IF I was there - but to attempt to charge me when they threw me out?! Exactly what was I being billed for? Certainly not watching over my boat!

I said "nuts" to all this, pulled the permanent lines I had left, and found a new home - with better accomodations, closer to the inlet, and a MUCH better atttude, albiet a few more minutes from the house and for a bit more money. Oh, the new place has better fuel prices too.

I should have gone where I am now originally four years ago, but the marina I was at was closer and more convenient. But attitude does count, and there's a marked difference between where I was and where I am now in that regard.

The only choice that would be better would be to own waterfront land with deep enough frontage to dock her there, and no fixed bridges in the way. The former isn't too terribly difficult to find. The latter is another matter.

jim rosenthal
01-11-2005, 04:38 PM
...BoatUS insurance for years as well, and I like them, but I agree with the above that I am not going to hold still for a hosing if I can avoid it. I will shop my insurance around.
What is unfortunate is that there isn't a self-insuring nonprofit pool arrangement for responsible boaters to use. (or reinsured, as the case may be). I suspect if you could get enough folks together who take protecting their boats seriously that they would comprise a good risk group for an enterprising insurance company. I don't have the time or expertise to do this, but I wish I did.

Mad Hat
01-11-2005, 04:52 PM
I too am not happy with the information about the insurance increase, as I live aboard my old 41' and still have a bank loan. It's a shame when you finally realize your dream to liveaboard, having to buy an older boat to do it (at least it's a Hatteras) and then face companies abusing boaters. I don't want to hear about the poor insurance company, they took the money when no claims were paid, now they want to stickit to boaters because they had to pay! Boat U.S. use to be a group of boaters who got together to buy equipment and services at the best price, until they decided to make large salaries, profit on everything they sell and services they provide. My suggestion is to either start another group to buy insurance etc. and make it strictly non-profit or everyone research insurance companies and advise them you could probably steer a large amount of business (boaters)their way if their rates are the lowest and coverage the highest. >: >: gosh i feel better for venting...happy boating on a Hatteras!

Trojan
01-11-2005, 08:59 PM
Its even harder to get if your boat is 20+ years old.So far Boat US is the cheapest I have found.$1300.for 125,000 .I don't know if thats good or not?Bill

Genesis
01-11-2005, 09:44 PM
... until you see your post-hurricane price, if you're in a "Hurricane affected" area.

Expect that figure to go up 50% or more from them.

BEC53
01-11-2005, 11:10 PM
I agree that if I were in the hurricane zone, I too would do everything in my power to prepare so as to save my Hatt. I looked too long for the right boat to let it go down and I've spent too long getting her the way I want her. Most of us here would agree, but it appears that others would rather get paid-off and find a brand new toy---child-like isn't it?

I hope this won't affect Great Lakes rates, but you know insurance companys--they'll spread it around.

Pirate1960
01-12-2005, 12:41 AM
Was this the boat left at the Oyster Bar in Perdido ? If so, I was one of the last 4 guys to tie it up. Did it say "DEAL MAKER" on the side ? That boat was toast !!!
That marina was GONE...period...

I didn't have the option of moving the boat very far since the 58 in nothing more than a pregnant pig in the water @12 knots. Everything to the west was closed on Monday except for limilted fuel and absolutely to overnight tied to their dock.

AFTER I filed my claim with BoatUS, my renewal was up in mid Nov., they actually sent me an invoice for my renewal reflecting like a 10% DISCOUNT for not having any claims. LMFAO I guess they didn't realize the size of the check they were about to write me !!!

Genesis
01-12-2005, 01:14 AM
The owner could have moved it - but didn't. Rumor is that he now has an order in on a 60 Azimut or something similar. I've met him; he works with a good friend of mine. I have no idea who insured him, but I do know that he did carry full insurance and got a check.

At 12kts you could have made Panama City in a (long) day, and there was fuel available until midnight the day before the hit - all the fuel docks around here stayed OPEN to insure that anyone running east didn't get screwed by running out of fuel.

Two friends of mine who went the "wrong way" didn't actually tie up in the ditch until the evening of the hit itself - they decided to remain OVERNIGHT in Destin (!) I thought they were nuts, but they didn't want to run the ditch at night. It was rough on the east part of the bay, but they got there.

Key to situations like this is to know your range and time required for various options, and to make damn sure you have a full load of fuel on board. You then know when windows close for various running locations, and when your "drop dead" times are to make those decisions.

Banshee36
01-12-2005, 02:04 AM
I know a lot of premiums went up but mine went down. I am with Charter lakes and I charter my rig. They may be able to help you out. Try em.
JW

Pirate1960
01-12-2005, 07:34 AM
I think the deal maker bought a McKenna 54'. The weather was wild there on tuesday and I could not fathom why he left his boat there for certain destruction. The ropes were no match for the wall of water that went through there. There was another Regal right next to it where my boat had been, and it sunk about 50 feet from where it ws moored. The DEAL MAKER was busted in many pieces as I understand. That was a wild place to be the day before the storm. I won't leave the new boat there as I believe the new boat wont be allowed to saty very far from where I am, or the captain will live on that thing during a storm.

Traveler 45C
01-12-2005, 12:17 PM
I had 2 boats in Pensacola during Ivan. The only damage I got was from the sailboat in the slip next to me who got loose, took out our finger pier and moved into my slip. He did very little to prep his boat. He had to be told to take his dingy off his transom! He got loose because he his Port Bowlines were not tied to the pilings, they were simply looped over the top (Eye splice end). When the surge came the lines lifted right off. I should have noticed this but was too busy tying up my own boats and helping others tie theirs. We spent lots of time tying up boats whose owners didn’t even show up.

If it’s any consolation, the guy with the new Azimut is gonna’ have to pay higher premiums also.

Greg

Genesis
01-12-2005, 03:02 PM
... but there are folks who buy something, say "oh boy, a chance to upgrade with zero depreciation!" and walk off.

I wouldn't be surprised if he did that.

I don't know this guy well - met him once - but a good friend of mine DOES know him well. That was his first boat of any size at all (maybe first AT ALL).

What I do know is this - he's local, lives here in the Destin area, and could have gone over and moved the damn thing. He didn't, got destroyed, and got a check.

Frankly, I think that if you do this sort of thing you should get ZERO, but that's me. I understand taking the precautions you can and still losing - it happens - but there are plenty of people who do NOTHING, get destroyed, and then just take the money. The "Agreed Value" policies ENCOURAGE THIS if you own a new boat.

Think about it folks....

You buy a new boat. You are upside down bigtime in terms of its value .vs. what you paid for a long time - maybe as much as 5 years from when its made.

If you get destroyed during that time, you get your purchase price back.

If you SELL the boat, you get less back.

Now, there is a storm coming. You've been thinking of upgrading. You bought a $600,000 boat that is worth $500,000 on a good day, and then the broker is going to take 10% of that. So you are about to take a $150,000 loss if you upgrade.

Or you can let the hurricane destroy you, and get a $600,000 check to buy your new boat with (in part)

Which do you do?

For those of us who own older vessels, its the other way around. I can't replace my boat for the insurance money - certainly not with what I've done with her since I bought her. As a consequence I'm going to do my damndest to make sure I DON'T get destroyed or significantly damaged, because the last thing I want is a damaged boat (repaired or not) or worse, destroyed in total. That is, I lose if she gets nailed - he wins under the same situation.

Agreed value insurance is a good thing in many ways, but it encourages this sort of abuse. I don't know how you fix the abuse though.... but somehow, there has to be a way.

Genesis
01-12-2005, 03:06 PM
.. for those who may find themselves in the same situation I am in, try Charter Lakes Insurance.

They just sent me a quite-competitive quote.

The only hitch is that they want an OUT OF WATER C&V within the last year - apparently they have run into people buying and selling storm-damaged boats on which the damage was not disclosed, and then getting burned by a claim for the (intentionally) hidden damage.

Since I'm due for a bottom job anyway, the haul won't cost me anything extra, and the C&V, while I will have to pay for it, won't be bad - its not a full prepurchase survey.

I expect that I'll be ditching Boat/US until they decide to get more reasonable with their quotes.

Traveler 45C
01-12-2005, 04:28 PM
On the day after Ivan, while a bunch of guys from the marina were aboard an older couple’s boat (live-aboards) trying to save her from sinking, the owner of a “For Sale” boat in the next slip showed up to survey his damage. He was still floating. He went aboard for about 10 minutes then left. Two hours later his boat was on the bottom. We all suspected he scuttled her and a salvage diver confirmed it. The diver found a hose pulled off a through-hull. The hose clamps were found loosened and still on the hose. He has been kicked out of the marina. It turns out that the new boat he just bought was destroyed also. He’ll have 2 checks coming.

Surfdancer45
01-12-2005, 04:40 PM
Hey Genesis, you need to give it a rest. I can understand your frustation over the situation but you are virtually accussing someone of insurance fraud. That is pretty strong stuff and really not appropriate for an open forum. My 2 cents Bob

Genesis
01-12-2005, 05:25 PM
accusing someone (anyone) of insurance fraud.

Insurance fraud would be intentionally "anchoring" your boat in a hurricane with a 10 pound anchor and 1/4" polypro line, or intentionally pulling (or cutting) a hose from a seacock.

However, my point still holds, and its true, whether you find it "offensive" or not.

If you buy a new boat, and insure it for agreed value, you "win" if it is totalled and you "lose" if you trade or sell it to move up.

IF you're inclined to move up, well, gee, which would you rather have happen?

That's a financial FACT, and no amount of "dodgeball" changes it. I am not claiming that any particular person did or did not intentionally destroy their vessel or cause it to be destroyed (that's fraud), but if you think that people don't take financial realities into account when figuring out what they need to do, and in what order, compared to their legal duties with regards to making sure their claim, if any, will be honored, you're simply nuts.

Second, it is absolutely true that in the case of Ivan, we had FOUR DAYS warning that it was likely to hit this area.

FOUR DAYS.

I know, because I live here, and I had that same FOUR DAYS of warning, and I USED those days to prepare.

Anyone who tells me that they had "just hours" to make preparations for Ivan - whether that meant running up the Tom Bigby, running East, or finding a hidey hole and holing up - they're not being honest.

Fact is, if you lived on the gulf coast you had FOUR DAYS WARNING.

You might argue that you didn't want to spend that four days running, or that you had "greater" priorities, but to argue that you didn't have the warning is just plain not true.

While there were plenty of bad luck situations that arose from Ivan, there were ALSO lots of people who did NOTHING, or very close to NOTHING, given the exposure to the open gulf that they had. There was a marina in town here on the sound - with only a tiny little spit of land between it and the open ocean - that was destroyed by the surge and wind. Every boat in there was toast, and a bunch of them were left in-slip. They were piled up like cordwood post-storm, but that was completely predictable given where they were and the lack of protection from any direction.

My next-door neighbor is an example. He had a pontoon on the lift behind the house - on the bay. I told him to move it or lose it, and he ignored me. Post-storm, NEITHER his dock OR boat were still there.

He found the boat ~10 miles away washed up. Damn things are nearly unsinkable, but it was roundly trashed, as you might expect.

At least I think he was 'self-insured', so the only person who ate that one was him.

I don't care all that much about people getting the checks - their duties are called out in the policies, and if they met them, they deserve to get their checks. Period.

I do very much care that Boat/US and other insurers think that a "10 percent" no-loss discount is appropriate for people in a storm-affected area who were able to avoid taking damage, while jacking EVERYONE'S rates 60%.

THAT'S where the problem is.

Those who took losses should bear the increased costs commensurate with those losses. Those of us who did not take losses, but were in the same areas and were definitely affected, either were lucky, took extensive precautions, or some combination of both. We should be rewarded rather than punished for our additional dilligence.

pirate1960
01-12-2005, 11:25 PM
Genesis, my man, get over the sticker shock. It is what it is. I wanted to point out something, Ivan was headed for N.O., not much sense bringing the boat home for a hurricane. I am glad you chose to go to Panama City, however, if the storm would have decided to go more east, you would have screwed like the rest of us, in fact Orange beach wouldn't have been so bad. It is all in the luck of where you happen to be when the storm makes landfall. As for your premium, I live in a 155 year old home on the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain. I am required to have flood insurance, the house is raised 8 feet off the ground. My flood premium is far more costly than was my boat insurance, and I cannot file a claim for anything unless the water rises on to the first floor which sits at 8.3' ASL. But I have to pay regardless every year for a policy that may never have a claim. In 155 years that this home has stood, water has never quite made it up to the first floor. SO go figure.

It could be worse.

Genesis
01-12-2005, 11:37 PM
.. I carry it here too.

But I'm built to the 100 year flood level, as FEMA dictates, and as such I'm rated "X" - no special hazard.

The insurance is cheap as a consequence.

People who live in AE or "V" zones get reamed. When I was shopping, that was one of the requirements - nothing other than "X" for me, thank you very much.

BTW, we came within INCHES of getting flooded during Ivan.

captddis
01-13-2005, 12:24 AM
I agree with Karl about securing the boat and moving to a safer area. However, A certain amount of luck is always involved. You see boats after storms that were not prepared and float up on shore with minimal damage. While the sunk boat is still firmly tied to the dock. I have a number of customers who are gone in the summer, so I have to secure or haul their boats then secure mine. Hurricane Charley was projected to hit us on the Pinellas coast. I evacuated for the first time in 25 years. As we were leaving after a final look around, I told my wife that I wish we had gotten on the boat last night headed south and tied it up behind my Inlaws house in Punta Gorda. Their house took a direct hit! Thank God I did not do that.
With Ivan it was predicted to hit Mobile, But I hauled the customers and still secured my Hatt and took the Chris off the lift and tied it in the canal just in case. You never know what the storms are going to do.

pirate1960
01-13-2005, 12:34 AM
I live on lake Pontchartrain, FEMA was not around when this house was built, nor was most of the Federal government. I am rated V15, THE WORST

So I pay, grin and bear it.

adaily3224
01-13-2005, 03:06 AM
I'm in Buffalo NY (no Hurricane plenty of snow) and am up for renewal soon. I'll post if I have an increase. Our policy's are for 6 months in the water 6 out. Prices are pretty low. So far Boat US has been great. A friend just packed up and moved to FL. his insurance rate went from $800 to $2,000. He shopped around and ended up with State Farm, $1,000.

Tony D

Mike36c
01-14-2005, 01:53 PM
Unfortunately I'm one of the folks with only hours to final prep my boat for a storm because other responsibilities come into play. I'm a corporate pilot and evacuate the plane days before a storm. A good move as our hangars were destroyed. My problem is what to do with the boat, do I run it north or south? Either way I could be screwed, these forecasters are clueless 2-3 days out. When Frances came I was 2000 miles away and couldn't move the hatt, we took a direct hit and all the damage she sustained could have been prevented if I were here and pushing to chore onto friends is also tough as they are busy making their own preparations.

Then came Jeanne and drill repeated only this time I got the last flight back after moving the airplane. Moved the Hatt and retied in 30kts (NO fun) literally hours before eye , she came out without a scratch (130mph winds) but I'm sure she would have went down if left where she was.

This is not the best situation but it is what it is and I make the best of it. As for insurance, I have allstate on both the hatt and a 20' flats skiff. I thought they would drop me after the claim but I received my renewal in the mail a few weeks ago. Just over $2000 for both boats including bahamas, a $500 deductible, and its safe to say I'm in a hurricane zone. My boat is a 1977 model and they had no problem issuing the policy (130k) after the survey. Hope this helps... Mike