adding/wiring 120v outlet

[the kuz]

I'm adding a themostatically controlled outlet in the engine room of our 1977 36C to power pad heater on the engines. Good news is that I have 2 open 120V breakers in the original panel, and no problems snaking wires into panel. Figured out how the black and white (hot and neutral) attach on those strange factory breakers. How is the 120V ground set up? The panel box and grounding strip in the box appear to be the ground for the 12V part of the panel. How/where do you ground the 120V? I have two 30 amp 3 wire services. All my existing outlets have a green ground wire attached to the recepticals, but it's not clear where the green goes to ground. I have confirmed that existing outlets are properly grounded with a plug in tester. There must be a grounding strip somewhere that ties to the shore power and gen set. Couldn't find anything with a search. Any help greatly appeciated. Thanks, Bob K

[yachtsmanbill]

I encountered the same situation on my 58'. I couldnt pick up a ground through my shore cord when on the hard, but had a "fair" ground in the water. On the hard if the green from the cord was hooked up the yard breaker would pop. Everything appeared normal too.
When I do my rehab next spring, I plan on simplifying the stupid Hatteras system by about 75% -- mine takes and electrical engineer to operate it, and that doesnt include all the fixin' that the SPO did. ws

[Pascal]

my hatt is a little older but i have 2 busses in the panel, one for neutrals (white), one for ground (green). both are in the panel itself and visible when i open it.

none of the breakers (except for the mains) are dual pole.

[Avenger]

Bob, you wouldn't have your wiring diagram for the boat would you? If not call Hatteras and spend the $75, it's worth it. Unfortunately mine is on the boat, but I seem to recall that they're all connected to a bus inside the panel box. On mine (1970) Hatteras used green for DC negative, AC ground and bonding too. And I'm also pretty sure that all three are tied together. If I make it to the boat this weekend I'll try to look it up.

Bill, is it possible that your neutral and ground are reversed? I think that would make the yard's GFI trip, but I'm sure there's an expert here who'll have a better answer. Let's not even get started on prior electrical work. I have some pictures of mine that are just scary. I'd post them, but it's too embarrasing. Another winter project I guess. I think scrap copper is up, that may defray the costs a little.

[yachtsmanbill]

$3.50/lb for grade A clean copper in Chicago today! ws

[Maynard Rupp]

The article I just read says there should NEVER be a connection between ANY of your shore power plug pins and your bonding system grounding system.
http://www.yandina.com/electrolysis.htm

[Avenger]

$3.50/lb. :eek: I may have to replace the FW piping too!

Maynard, I could be wrong, I don't have the boat or the diagram in front of me. Also this was 1970, things may have changed.

[yachtsmanbill]

That sounds quite a bit like my ZINCSAVER system. The SPO on my boat evidently had a double 110volt inlet failure and eliminated that system all together. Both sides of the 110 and the 220 inlet were all removed, and a single 220 inlet mounted on the forward side of the deck house. There are several cut and sealed wires on the iso trans and no inlet fuses that I have found any way.
As for now, with 2 new 110 inlets installed on the port side, all I could do was to wire the 2 feeds direct to the buss bars on the panel to liven the boat.Each circuit is fused, but no mains. :eek:
The iso trans must be in there because the panel still shows 220volts. (?)
The 2 hots are on the breaker bars and the nuetral to one of the rotary switches and a non contacting ground. On shore, any groundwire to anything green in the panel trips the breaker on the yard side -- no GFI.Plus I got nailed by grabbing a propshaft!! In the water it doesnt trip anything but has a voltage potential because it still produces a very slight arc.
When I gut this tub, I am going to enjoy pulling ALL the 220,110,32,12, and unknown systems out completely and start from scratch by todays codes. Right now the boat is plugged in and EVERY breaker is off, including the batt mains except for the charger for the pump batteries. WHEW !!
Trying to follow the original schematics and switching five (5!) rotary switches make the old fart sack sizzle. COMMENTS? QUESTIONS? ws

[MikeP]

On our '80 53MY Hatt's electrical procedures and the current ABYC recommendations are the same in every thing I have looked at. I can't speak for earlier models but by 1980 they were using tinned copper wire, ring terminals, and all the proper gauges and color codes for AC and DC wiring. If I was buying a boat and the buyer told me he had removed all the Hatt oem wiring and had it "refitted it to today's standards" - I'd run, figuring (maybe incorrectly but I wouldn't stop to consider it) that it was probably NOT done as well as Hatt did it. Also, if it's not oem, than NONE of the info in the service manual, owners manual, or wiring diagrams is correct. This would be a nightmare for anyone trying to troubleshoot electrical problems.

I would certainly fix all the problems but I would rip out the non-oem stuff and return it to oem.

[Avenger]

:confused: Voltage on the running gear and that's called a ZINCSAVER? Sounds like a floating toaster. Is your insurance up to date?

[the kuz]

Maynard, et al, thanks. My 120V, 12V negative and bonding are also all green. I will sort through my wiring diagrams (I have diagrams for every version of the 36C made in 77) in the morning and see if I can find the right one (and read it correctly). Also will try putting the multimeter to the various systems to see if they are tied together (ran out of daylight today). Looks to me like all my 120V breakers are double throw and break both the hot and neutral when turned off. This is challenging my experience as an apprentice electrician (40+ years ago) - doesn't look like house wiring! Lucky thing is that all the 120V electrical appears to be factory original. Bonding was redone with last year's re-power, and a lot of the 12V is also original (with wires numbered) so hopefully I can figure it out. There is a large romex (looks to be #8 or #6) 3 wire (black, white, green) that runs from the shore power plug ins (OBTW never had a problem with those 30 amp fuses) but it disappears near the panel and doesn't seem to run all the way into the panel. If I I can't figure it out I will call Hatteras unless one of you great forum members can get me right on this. Thanks again, Bob K

[Avenger]

If you have double-pole breakers and fused inlets then yours is very different from mine. A lot seems to have changed in 7 yrs. Sorry I can't be more help. :(

[yachtsmanbill]

:confused: Voltage on the running gear and that's called a ZINCSAVER? Sounds like a floating toaster. Is your insurance up to date?

I think yer TEQUILA spoiled. he zincsaver is on my Roamer and FOOLPROOF.The Hatts another story.

[yachtsmanbill]

On our '80 53MY Hatt's electrical procedures and the current ABYC recommendations are the same in every thing I have looked at. I can't speak for earlier models but by 1980 they were using tinned copper wire, ring terminals, and all the proper gauges and color codes for AC and DC wiring. If I was buying a boat and the buyer told me he had removed all the Hatt oem wiring and had it "refitted it to today's standards" - I'd run, figuring (maybe incorrectly but I wouldn't stop to consider it) that it was probably NOT done as well as Hatt did it. Also, if it's not oem, than NONE of the info in the service manual, owners manual, or wiring diagrams is correct. This would be a nightmare for anyone trying to troubleshoot electrical problems.

I would certainly fix all the problems but I would rip out the non-oem stuff and return it to oem.

Not to stir the pot, but I sure as hell am not going to "restore" that OEM bullshit when I start out with a bare hull. To R&R the SPOs job would entail cutting spliced looms and a million zip ties. Plus yer beloved factory built this boat with no thought whatsover to having to crawl all over the engine room with 3" bundles of wires coming out of a hole in the deck, running 2 feet and then going back DOWN another hole. Any boat mechanic / electrician would run EVERYTHING overhead. BTW-- EVERY connection I ever make is a ring connector, soldered and heat shrinked and verified/re-marked on the OEM schematic. When you own several old boats you need to be like a chameleon,ADAPT.
When I am done with this boat I will either be in the grave or torch it. I never give any thought to a prospective buyers feelings about MY QUALITY OF WORK / CRAFTSMANSHIP.
I guess I need to go back to the sandbar :rolleyes: LOL ws

[SeaEric]

I had the panel/shorepower/inlets/wiring all redone in my 1970 boat 2 winters ago. The OEM stuff was scary by today's standards. The marine electrical standards have changed BIG TIME in 36 years. The OEM set up was fixing to make a crispy critter out of me and the neighboring yachts if I didn't upgrade and renew. Part of the problem is the amount of extra electrical gear that's been added to most boats over time. Add a microwave, an icemaker, HW heater goes bad so replace a 10 gal with a 20 gal, on and on and on. The added load ADDS UP. It needs to be accommodated.

BTW-The $5000. quote for the electrical redo ended up being a $14,000. bill. Lots of (like Dr Jims calls) "while you're in there's" added up. Was tough paying that bill, but the work was excellent and I sleep soundly now.

[yachtsmanbill]

THANK YOU ERIC ;) My boat is scary too; like frankenfurters lab. IT LIVES !!
THE MONSTER LIVES !! ws

[REBrueckner]

Ashore, white neutral and green ground are connected for you by the power supplier. This helps reduce shock hazards. Aboard they are NOT connected except when a power source, such as a genny or MARINE inverter is operating. That's to help prevent unintentional ac power being delivered to ground (such as shafts) and electrocuting nearby swimmers if a fault develops.

ABYC practices have hardly changed for 50 years..Hatts meet them, no problem except for the possibility of GFCI outlets. (I don't know what ABYC specifices about GFCI currently.) Standard practice has always been to collect all 12v dc equipment (case) grounds (not engative) together at a buss and then run a heavy conductor to a single ground point, often a single connection on an engine (satisfactory) or perhaps an isolated grounding point (ideal). Same for on board ac grounding: collection at a buss and connection to the grounding point.

Calder, Second edition, "Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical manual" has excellent discussions beginning Pg 95.

If I recall, behind my electrical panel, the 12v dc grounding is collected on a terminal strip bulkhead mounted, and another separate terminal strip collects all the ac grounding. Keeping them separate HELPS avoid apply any a/c fault voltages to dc equipment.

[Trojan]

On my 1973 the breakers are 120 volt, single throw, double pole and are used at all out going power up circuits. As in lights, stove, frig, etc.. Shore power and generator have an isolation switches to prevent back feed. Green and white still remain the ground before the breaker in the panel. Each outlet wire the white and black wires return to the breaker. Both wires break. All of the grounds are the same on the boat. Common wires are, green wire, white wire and black wire DC . There are no single wire feeds. Ether 3 wire jacketed 120 volt ac or 2 wire jacketed 12 volt DC.
All grounds end up the same. Including the bonding green wire. Not all boats had shore line fuses. The drawing states added shore line fuses effect hull date 1972. 36C-Hull #257, 38C-Hull #116, 3813-Hull #134, 42C-Hull #179, 43DC- Hull#169.

BILL

[Avenger]

I think yer TEQUILA spoiled.Tequila can spoil?!? Ohmigawd :eek: I've got to test my inventory, I'll see you in a week or so.
The zincsaver is on my RoamerOooohhhhh. :o Sorry.

I checked the schematic today. On my '70 there's a neutral bus for the A.C. with single pole breakers for the hot side. Also there's a paragraph in the electrical section that specifically states that the D.C. negative, A.C. ground and bonding system are all connected. Not saying it's the best way, but it's the way it was done.

[yachtsmanbill]

Yer system sound like my '74 too. kinda hard to comprehend. But I'll gaurantee you this: when I re-do it anybody will be able to understand it. The system on the 58' is confusing at the very least!! ws

[Avenger]

Mine obviously needs a redo and update too. I'm trying to find an ABYC member who'll let me have a peek at the current standards, 'cause I'd really like to have a plan before I start. Also, I think a job done correctly adds value to the boat. Standards and materials as well as electrical demands have changed since mine was built, and a prospective buyer should be able to tell by looking at it if the workmanship is up to par.

[Trojan]

There is nothing wrong with the Hatteras wiring. You must remember that when Hatteras engineers designed the circuits. There were no GFI'S and isolated circuits were the next best thing. By isolating the circuits you minimize the ground loops and chance of shock.


BILL

[Avenger]

I'm not saying Hatteras did the grounding wrong. As always, they did it the best way that was available at the time. But they didn't have tinned wire then either, so much of my redo will be out of necessity. Hatteras also didn't anticipate the depth finders, RADAR, SW temp sensor, deck lights and other added electrical loads on my particular boat. Plus several prior owners have made "modifications." So this winter it's time to go at it with the cutters. And since the debate about galvanic isolators goes on and isolation transformers are expensive and bulky for a "small" boat it may end up that way again. That's why I'd like the ABYC specs. Anybody?

REBruckner, thanks for the book info. I'll look into it.

[MikeP]

If you search around the internet, you'll probably find all the ABYC specs you need. Unfortunately, they will be in various places as excerpts in various articles. A few years ago I found a site that had the actual publication posted. I tried that link but it goes nowhere now. ABYC wants your membership. Apparently that is more important to them than safety. I'm not impressed.

Nigel Calder's book is a good source as well.

[Trojan]

I started doing some of that to because of added and subtracted items. But you want to be careful of what wires you pull out. I started ripping out just about every thing that I didn't currently use. Then it hit me. Some of these areas you can't get to very easy. So I left some in and tagged them as pull wires and where they ran to and from.


BILL

[34Hatt]

Scrod I'm not saying Hatteras did the grounding wrong. As always, they did it the best way that was available at the time. But they didn't have tinned wire then either, so much of my redo will be out of necessity. Hatteras also didn't anticipate the depth finders, RADAR, SW temp sensor, deck lights and other added electrical loads on my particular boat. Plus several prior owners have made "modifications." So this winter it's time to go at it with the cutters.
I also felt this way plus in the 34s the panel was in the Head what were they thinking :eek: I started working on boats when I was 10 pulling wire for my Dad Yeah I was the bildge Rat and Dad use to rewire boats. From what I learned and saw I was not Impressed with a lot of things Hatteras did!! Plus it was over 30 years old and not tinned. No where near enough power running to the bridge and everything going thru two terminal blocks, I like home runs!!! So Scrod I say go at it and put PVC pipe in where ever you can for new pulls :D
Good luck.

[Avenger]

Good ideas all. Thanks for the input and encouragement guys. I have a couple of ideas I'll be floating past the forum when I get this project going. I also have to look at soundproofing and new plumbing "While I'm in there." Should be fun. :rolleyes:

[REBrueckner]

"...Also there's a paragraph in the electrical section that specifically states that the D.C. negative, A.C. ground and bonding system are all connected.."

That's STILL the ABYC standard. No other way to protect swimmers. The other component is lightning protection, if any, as grounding from handrails, radar arch, aluminum rub rail,etc. ABYC standards MAY have been updated to recommend lightning be separately grounded via a thru hull fastening (bolt) to an isolated exterior underwater metal, a minimum of one square foot in area. This helps (but does not guarantee) that a lightning strike will be less likely to blow up thru hulls which are bonded.

But the ABYC standards are to some extent tradition bound and change comes at a snails pace. Bonding of underwater thru hulls, for example, may do more harm than good should an electrical fault develop, or when leakage current is present from a marine ground, and can direct lightning where it is NOT wanted. An isolated (un bonded) thru hull is stable and safe if quality marine bronze or non conductive material.

Before any of you begin to tear wiring out in wholsesale fashion, be SURE you can remove the existing wiring from ducts, routes behind cabinets, under engine room floorboards,etc,etc,etc,etc. Much is permanenty fastened in place where it is inaccessible having been installed before interior finish was completed. So if you can't get the old wire out you will not be able to get the new wire in.

If you have a specific concern, say air conditioning, consider just replacement/upgrading of that wiring. In most cases, unless a boat has been submerged, the wiring itself remains very durable; terminals and connections are where the most common problems occur.

One way to test electrical connections is to run equipment for a period of time and then check terminal temperatures with an infrared thermometer. If none reflect high temps, there is likely no hazard.

[yachtsmanbill]

The submarine was down in about 8 feet of freshwater and miraculously just about everything works, GM pumps excluded. The only failures on the wiring that I encountered was negligence from the PO where wires were frequently bent at devices and never properly fixed. I can contribute part of this to having NO shorepower and DOA batteries.
My nightmare is 5 (five) rotary switches that need to be correect for P&S shore power (S) 110 OR 220 then the VOLTAGE/FREQEUNCY (foreign ports) selectors under the helm. There are also FEETS'S of cut wires for inlets no longer used. AND NONE OF IT IS MARKED !! You would not believe the miles of wire on a 58!! ws