Boaters Bailing!

[MikeP]

I was talking to one of the local yachtbrokers yesterday eve. He was telling me that many folks with fairly new boats in 35-40 ft range are leaving boating and having to write sizable checks to get out! There is a 03 Silverton for sale that the guy has been trying to sell for about 6 months. He refused an offer two months ago where he would have "only" lost around 40K; broker says he now will be writing a check for close to 100K to sell the boat - OUCH!!

Per the broker, in that size range, they're exiting in droves. Basically he said that ANY boat - yes, even a nice 53MY like Brigadoon (!) will not fetch more than 75% of what it would have a year ago. Oh well, fortunately, I have no plans to ever sell the boat so it doesn't much matter but I can't help but wonder how much worse it will get - and he's confident it will get worse. Not a good time to be selling a boat. Good for buyers, though - wonder what the price is on that 82ft Burger that they wanted 1.1M for a few months ago...

[Genesis]

I priced Gigabite knowing that I'd not get what I would have a year or two prior.... I didn't sell due to fuel conditions or whatnot (it was an entirely personal thing having to do with my pattern of use) but it definitely left a larger hole in my wallet (or filled a smaller one, depending on how you look at it) than it would have previously.

Of course if this continues in a couple of years I'll be able to buy that trawler or LRC for much less, so it all evens out.... :D

[SeaEric]

The market here in Md. is good. We are selling boats. I don't see any sort of panic in the market by sellers. We have had a few where the lack of a sufficient down payment at purchase came home to roost. The seller of a 1998 37' Silverton just came to the closing table with $43,000. to clear the note. And a new record for me- The seller of a 1998 53' Carver that he purchased new, came to closing with $133,000. to pay off his boat. It must really suck to be a grown up!

[whaler23]

Just curious what motivated him out of the Carver at such a high cost?

[67hat34c]

Here is a thought.

Since the market is a buyers market there may be a few boaters that are willing to take a hit on one boat that they realy dont like and buy another one. They can justify this in their own mind by saying i can take a hit on one boat because I am getting such a good deal on another one. I did this about 15yrs ago on a House , gave one away because of the deal I got on the new one.

Of course some are having to dump them because they realy cant afford them and the costs keep rising.

[mstailey]

MikeP be right - it's a buyers market. There are 4 40+ ft Carvers and SeaRays in my marina for sale and the sellers are living in a dream world to think they are going to get what they are asking for. My guess is the SP is high due to what they owe. Too bad. How do I know this? They been for sale for going on 2 years.

Karl, you having withdrawls yet? Man it's got to be tough with no float to work or cruise on....

[SeaEric]

The Carver owner sold because he was smart enough to know that his upside down position was worsening by the day. The value of the boat was declining at a much faster rate than his pay-off. He was not using the boat enough anymore to justify the expense. My buyer traded him a smaller diesel motoryacht that he can tie up in front of his waterfront home and use as a weekend boat. Everyone seems happy. Thats what we want!

[Genesis]

That's it. And its why I pay cash for my (depreciating) toys - of which all are, including Hatts - they just depreciate more slowly.

Anyone who thinks not can pull out their receipts for everything they've spent (not including fuel of course which gets burned up) and then try telling me they got what they paid (or more) out of it. Ha!

But - if you finance you can find yourself in a real pickle... the boat can depreciate faster than your note balance does! That's not good......

[Pascal]

i wonder how insurers handle the risk of insuring boats for higher than their real world market values as lenders want their own risk, the loan balance, to be covered....

[SeaEric]

Pascal- More support for my theory on hurricane preparedness. Those who care for and about their boats prepare for storms and usually have little or no damage. Those who would just as soon "sell" their unused/unwanted boat to the insurance company, do nothing to prepare and the boats ends up on the bottom or upside down in a marsh. And you wonder why rates are skyrocketing.

[67hat34c]

I am with Genesis, pay cash for it. Heck the money you put in to it each month makes up for the loan payment.

[SKYCHENEY]

Yeah, when you pay cash, you don't have to jump through the hoops that the bankers make you do either. You don't have to be CG documented and you don't have to meet any specific insurance requirements. You get make the decisions about your boat instead of some banker that doesn't have a clue about boats.

[Genesis]

Yep.

Here's the deal tho on insurance - you absolutely NEED liability insurance - including pollution liability. You don't even want to think about how big the fine can be if you sink and 500 gallons of diesel goes down with the boat, then starts coming out of the boat - and it will!

Also, consider what happens if you screw up and run someone (or something) over........ 25+ tons is going to do plenty of damage.....

One thing that REALLY gets me upset is that I've yet to find an insurance company that will insure "all but named storms." That is a policy that I suspect a LOT of owners who care would like to buy...... I know I would.

[Beckytek]

I agree that paying cash for your boat is the best way, but if it weren't for the banks I'd be boatless in New Jersey. I'm 72, how much longer can I wait? No thanks, I'll pay the price whatever, I got he fever! :D

[Boss Lady]

I think three things are impacting boat ownership, the cost of fuel (3X prices), the recent increases in insurance rates (3X previous prices), and boat slips that used to be rented for a reasonable rate are now only for sale at outrageous prices. Another factor is larger, cheaper boats have been introduced to the market and a less knowledgeable owners have taken up boating in the last few years. All goes well until the warranty runs out and they get the bill for all the deferred maintenance they didn't know to do to prevent a lot of sticker shock later. It isn't like the old days when Hatteras and Bertram along with a few custom builders were really the only game in town. Now it seems like new companies spring up every month offering a nice looking boat but we all know will turn to crap in a couple of years. These boats are cheap to get into because they are cheap to build, they also depreciate faster and they potential buyers that they want to unload it to are looking for the same things that were appealing to them when they bought it, but it no longer has. When new it had a warranty, and was all shiny. Now it doesn't have a warranty and is a corroding mass. The new guy just wants to go boating. The newbies don't understand that just because you can afford to buy a boat doesn't mean you can afford to own a boat. The yacht brokers are making a mess for the rest of us to live with. The banks will get smoked eventually with boats that no one wants and they are financing this madness. We all know that a lot of dis-interested owners do nothing to prepare for storms and hope it gets totaled so they can collect from the insurance companies and not lose their ass. We end up paying terrible prices for insurance. We all see the neglected boats and know what will happen to them during the next storm and who will wind paying the bill. :mad:

[Genesis]

"The Bizness" has only itself to blame for the situation that is coming.

And not just one part of it either - all parts - manufacturers, lenders, insurance companies, brokers.

What 'ya got today? Manufacturers increasing prices at 10% or more annually - three to four times the rate of inflation. Where's the money going? In their pockets.

Why? To keep the used market propped up.

Its like the condo craze - and when the music stops....

Fuel is not a real killer for most boats of significant size. But squeezes in the marina and insurance area are another matter. Fuel use you can control - one fishing trip a week instead of two, run slower, etc. But insurance and dockage in particular are beyond your control.

What do you do when you simply can't buy either, or you have a note out (and thus require insurance) and you have only one choice - at 5x your previous cost? Why you sell (if you can), of course.

Poor quality products don't help - and there are plenty of them out there. There are basically no standards for hull integrity and such in recreational or uninspected service.....

[Boss Lady]

3 years ago when I was looking for a slip to rent (average $400/month) here in NC you had to get on a waiting list to get a slip at the more popular areas such as Morehead City. Then they put the same slips up for sale and the speculators bought them and flipped them several times and now there are a lot of them sitting empty. They drove the prices up to $100k and I know several people (speculators) that now are looking for someone to come rent them so they can offset their mortgages or try and get some return on their investments. I know one friend who bought three slips, I told him he is an idiot, because he didn't know a thing about boats or boat people. He told me I needed to get in now because the price is going up! I told him good luck in finding another sucker to unload them on. The opening price on most was $60k and that was more than the market would bear. He asked me what was I going to do when all of them get sold? So I showed him, I just moved my boat further south and now pay less than $300 month at my present marina. He didn't understand that boats move unlike houses. I can understand if a marina has great amenities and services, but none of ours do, you can get fuel and ice. I would rather invest $60-$100k into a house with a boat dock that will appreciate, instead of a hole in the water. I offered him $30k for a slip, he scoffed back, "yea, right" so I told him the offer stands when he wants to cut his losses to call me. :D

[Dave Phipps]

No question that these issues will continue to grow and impact us all, in all regions of the country.

Banks, who see their collateral decline in value faster than their customer is paying off principal, will revise their lending requirements to "protect" themselves....down payments will have to be more than 25%...

Slip availability for a reasonable price...will drive many boaters out of boating period! Who can drive for hours to get to their boat, only to see that change in the years ahead too?

I'm not sure what percentage of boating occurs in Florida and the Gulf coast states subject to hurricanes, but it has to be very substantial, on the order of 30% or more of US boating; and if you can't insure vessels there, then what happens to supply and demand in the country's boat market?

One note of interest is that the state of Michigan, which if memory serves me correctly is the number two or three state in terms of boat registrations, owns and operates many state of the art marinas. This is because they recognize how important boating is to their economy. Of course, in a state where budget crisis is driving things, the state would be tempted to sell off its assests for a quick buck.

Naturally there are cycles in any business, but these factors seem to be more than that; they're the kind that produce a shift in fundementals. I wonder how many dollars and jobs are at stake in the marine service industries in the southeast?

Sure makes one wonder where its going to go in the next 3-5 years.

[SKYCHENEY]

Michigan was #1 for years until 2004 when California beat them out. I read that now Mi has just over 1 million boats registered in the state.

[(Nobody You Know)]

If I'm not mistaken, and I don't feel like reading pages of crap this Sat. AM, insurance companies have a clause where they do not pay over the (street - ok water) value of any item subject to a claim. And they will do comparables to determine this value if necessary. If you want to keep rates down, take a few boating courses so you can better avoid grounding, secure your boat properly in inclement weather, and avoid going out on bad days with sc warnings and dangerous areas. Also learn to get home if and when your digital marvel of electronics which you've been bragging about conks out! See United States Power Squadrons or U.S.C.G. Auxillary.
Eric, thanks for the great line, it does "it must suck to be....". Sell them boats!
Capt'n Bill

[Genesis]

Agreed value is agreed value.

An "actual value" policy works as you describe. If I have an agreed value policy (and you should if you own a boat) then you and the insurance company negotiate both a price for the insurance and a value for the boat, and in the event of a total loss that's what they pay you.

This is the ONLY way to have marine insurance, because your note (if you have one) doesn't change with market conditions, and neither did what you paid!

Insurance companies, of course, will not write such a thing without a C&V survey, and they should probably monitor it MUCH more closely than they do, but that's not YOUR responsibility - its theirs.

[kemosabe421]

It has been seven months since the last post on this thread. I am curious as to how the group feels about the market today. Better? Worse? Which way is it headed? If it is getting worse (which I think it is), how much worse. I am a buyer looking but am willing to wait until I think the market is near the bottom. Any thoughts or suggeations?

[garyd]

If the boat your looking to buy just sits and the price drops you may or may not be better off. Lets say the boat has been used as of late and everything is ship shape.

Then they put it on the market for x$$$$. Over the next year they drop the price after starting out fair say they drop it 30k. By sitting for a year it may now have at least 30k worth of stuff they needs to be repaired. And the more systems the worse it could be. If your watching a boat deteriorate to a $ amount you might have been better off to buy it sooner than later.

I say do your research find the one you want make a great deal and start boating. The lowest priced boat out there is not always the best deal. Sometimes the highest price boat out there may be the best deal.

If you look at a boat that has been completely redone and is in perfect shape and one just like it is $100k less but needs to be refit inc engines then you have to decide what you want to do. If the more expensive boat was refit correctly it would be in my opinion the better buy, say a boat around 40 feet for this example.

I guess what I'm saying is "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR"!

P.S. I wouldn't let the market decide if I was going to go boating or not. LOL

have fun and go boating garyd

[Boss Lady]

I would agree with you. I tell friends to buy the best condition boat you can afford, evem if that means buying a smaller boat. I always ask does doing repair work bring you great satisfaction, or do you just want to go boating? Most people just want to go boating, I like to create, so doing a major project is very satisfying even if I can't do the work. One day I will be able to spend the time everyday in the yard during a refit. There are some boats in really good condition compared to other like boats, and they are usually only slightly higher priced. Quality boats like Hats and Bertrams are worth saving. Most people do not have the necessary background to tackle a project boat on their own. You can however offset the costs if you can do some of the work yourself, and then let the pros do what you can't. Boats are not investments. They are subject to market forces and since the number of potential buyers is limited to the people who may like the particular make and model you have, it is only worth what the next guy is willing to pay for it. The LRCs actually bring more money today than they did when new, because there were very few of them made and a lot of people want them. If you want to increase the number of potential buyers, give them a ride on you Hatteras. Then when they go to buy their second boat (after not listening the first time) they will be in the market for a Hat. :D

[Trojan]

I use boat work as a means of an excuse to spend more time on the boat. :D It's better than doing those honey-do jobs at home. :rolleyes: I like working on the boat there are so many things that I like doing. That I don't consider it work. Other people might think its work. Plus I save money.


BILL

[Boatsb]

It's the best therapy ever.

[Nick]

and better than sitting on the couch and paying the shrink!

Amen

[Maynard Rupp]

and better than sitting on the couch and paying the shrink!

Amen
I couldn't afford the shrink. spend all mt spare cash on the boat. :p

[SKYCHENEY]

I use boat work as a means of an excuse to spend more time on the boat. :D It's better than doing those honey-do jobs at home. :rolleyes: I like working on the boat there are so many things that I like doing. That I don't consider it work. Other people might think its work. Plus I save money.


BILL

LOL, I just read this to the Admiral and she said, "Did you write that?". :D

[q240z]

Regarding boats as holes in the water into which you pour money, I have to ask: doesn't that argument presume that you only use the boat for recreational purposes? I believe things change quite a bit if your boat is 1) already fully depreciated and 2) used, even partially, as a liveaboard.

For example, rents here in DC for a studio/efficiency start at $1,000/mo unless you're willing to live in the ghetto, where they go for $750. Slip space for our 52' Chris Craft Connie is $500/mo and we live onboard 4 days/week or so. In the boat purchase + slip rental vs. apartment rental equation, we'll break even on our boat purchase in just a few short years even after factoring in all of the maintenance associated with a wooden boat. Of course, I enjoy doing the maintenance. Things might change if I needed a full-time shipwright to do it for me.

We could have bought a condo in the Latino ghetto for $160k. The argument is that real estate always goes up while boats go down. But factor in the $300/mo for condo fees, which only cover maintenance (ever priced out the replacement cost of obsolete elevators in 20-story buildings, due and payable in 30 days?), and the boat still looks pretty good. Beyond its use as a floating residence, there's the fun factor of firing up the Detroits and heading out. Try that in a condo!

The funniest thing is trying to explain to lubbers how owning a country house with acreage and living part-time on a yacht can be less expensive than buying a little 2-bedroom inside the beltway. They just don't get it. :p

[Trojan]

I just turned down a summer cottage in southern Michigan on a lake, up near MIS. It was an inheritance. But I gave it to my sister because I did not want the associated work that came with it. I said, I have a boat cottage that I can move its location anytime I like. I also don't need no darn lawn mower. Any work I do on the boat is most likely an improvement and quite satisfying. A bad day at the boat is better than a good day at the farm and my employee does the work at the farm. :D


BILL

[thoward]

Regarding boats as holes in the water into which you pour money, I have to ask: doesn't that argument presume that you only use the boat for recreational purposes? I believe things change quite a bit if your boat is 1) already fully depreciated and 2) used, even partially, as a liveaboard.. :p

It really depends on where you are at and the size of your boat. Ours is 60' and the slip/electricty is about $800/month. Add in pulls/repairs and you add another 20K/year. Your boat will not increase in relative value but a house will. I think the liveaboard idea is valid if the boat stays at the dock.

In regards to the market...Our real estate market seems to have evened out so I would think the boat market would be near the bottom as well. There comes a point where you mothball the boat until the prices swing back. I was too young to be involved but didn't the large boat market tank with real estate market back in the 80's or early 90's?

[Boatsb]

A frind has a house on the river as a second home in Brevard Cty that after 2 1/2 years is worth about what they paid so the market is not getting better yet. Both the second house and the boat have their upsides and down sides while the house is a more permanent item they both require maintenance and could be considered a wash on the cost of ownership at the present time.

If the market gets better and my boat value does not rise with the economy I see him doing better financially but my blood pressure will be lower.

[Boss Lady]

It really depends on where you are at and the size of your boat. Ours is 60' and the slip/electricty is about $800/month. Add in pulls/repairs and you add another 20K/year. Your boat will not increase in relative value but a house will. I think the liveaboard idea is valid if the boat stays at the dock.

In regards to the market...Our real estate market seems to have evened out so I would think the boat market would be near the bottom as well. There comes a point where you mothball the boat until the prices swing back. I was too young to be involved but didn't the large boat market tank with real estate market back in the 80's or early 90's?
Yes it did, but the luxury tax had more to do with the boat market tanking than realestate forces did. The realestate devaluation affected the ability to buy boats. If your realestate investments are tanking you are not going to go out and buy a new boat, like wise if you are all of a sudden upside down on rental/investment properties due to increased taxes and insurance, you may have to sell your boat to make up the cash flow/cut costs. If this one goes the way of the 80's market crash, we will see some significant housing price reductions 30-40%, depending upon interest rates, it could be worse, and then prices will remain flat for a number of years until values catch up to prices. (I am sorry, but a small waterfront house that was worth $350K in 2002 is still not worth $1.5M, just because that is the listing price!) It was about 14 years on the last cycle. The big difference here is that so many people have used ARMs to finance the madness so there will be some really big losers this time, small time speculators will be hit the hardest, leverage amplifies both gains and "losses"

[CARL GUZMAN]

We could have bought a condo in the Latino ghetto for $160k. The argument is that real estate always goes up while boats go down. But factor in the $300/mo for condo fees, which only cover maintenance (ever priced out the replacement cost of obsolete elevators in 20-story buildings, due and payable in 30 days?), and the boat still looks pretty good. Beyond its use as a floating residence, there's the fun factor of firing up the Detroits and heading out. Try that in a condo!

Hey newbie there's alot of ghetto's out there did you have to pick on Latino's ..you haven't even bought me a drink yet.. or flown with the BIRD!!!!or been on the Goozcruzer...

[Boatsb]

You gotta choose the latin ghetto. Its safer than the other options. My little jewban son will tell you that. So will the bird. By he way is your boat OK? I know he was visiting. Oh yea are you still married after his visit?

[Boss Lady]

Hey Carl, When ole Fidel kicks the bucket we have to go down and score some beach front property before all the gringos and ex-patriots show and screw things up. We need to get someone to do a recon for us now so we know where the prime spots are. LOL :D

[q240z]

It really depends on where you are at and the size of your boat. Ours is 60' and the slip/electricty is about $800/month. Add in pulls/repairs and you add another 20K/year.

For our 52 footer it runs $340 now but we're leaving the ghetto marina and moving to a yacht club on the Potomac. Two blocks from the Smithsonian and about $525/mo, depending on electricity use...

$20k for repairs every year? Geez, sounds like you shoulda bought an old wooden Chris Craft. :D

The Latino ghetto just happened to be the one closest to work and, as others have suggested, it's relatively safer. Still, $165k for a basement studio apartment *anywhere* is a ton of speculative dough. My blood pressure is definitely lower on Libertarian.

[thoward]

$20k for repairs every year? Geez, sounds like you shoulda bought an old wooden Chris Craft. :D .

I just sold a 43' wooden Egg Sportfisher. Never again!!!!!! We use our boats and it is not cheap to maintain a boat in Florida. Canvas does not last, bottoms get trashed, topside paint gets beat, now add in wear and tear on 2 25kw gens and 2 12v71t engines and 20k is conservative.

[hwginc]

I would agree with you. I tell friends to buy the best condition boat you can afford, evem if that means buying a smaller boat. I always ask does doing repair work bring you great satisfaction, or do you just want to go boating? Most people just want to go boating, I like to create, so doing a major project is very satisfying even if I can't do the work. One day I will be able to spend the time everyday in the yard during a refit. There are some boats in really good condition compared to other like boats, and they are usually only slightly higher priced. Quality boats like Hats and Bertrams are worth saving. Most people do not have the necessary background to tackle a project boat on their own. You can however offset the costs if you can do some of the work yourself, and then let the pros do what you can't. Boats are not investments. They are subject to market forces and since the number of potential buyers is limited to the people who may like the particular make and model you have, it is only worth what the next guy is willing to pay for it. The LRCs actually bring more money today than they did when new, because there were very few of them made and a lot of people want them. If you want to increase the number of potential buyers, give them a ride on you Hatteras. Then when they go to buy their second boat (after not listening the first time) they will be in the market for a Hat. :D
VERY WELL SAID :

[Tom Ipock]

I never thought I would see this - 1987 Hatt 58' MY Widebody - $419,000 and a 1985 for $399,00 on yachtworld. These are asking prices. These boats were in the $600,000 range just 5 years ago. If these quality yachts that have already depreciated are dropping like that, how can anyone consider a new Hatt - even if you have the money to buy one? It's almost like a panic to get out. Is this an unbelievable "buyers market", or can one expect the slide to continue? Where is the bottom?
Tom

[Boss Lady]

If I knew that I would have picked the correct numbers for last nights lotto! LOL :D

[Maynard Rupp]

I never thought I would see this - 1987 Hatt 58' MY Widebody - $419,000 and a 1985 for $399,00 on yachtworld. These are asking prices. These boats were in the $600,000 range just 5 years ago. If these quality yachts that have already depreciated are dropping like that, how can anyone consider a new Hatt - even if you have the money to buy one? It's almost like a panic to get out. Is this an unbelievable "buyers market", or can one expect the slide to continue? Where is the bottom?
Tom
Tom, a broker friend of mine said that widebody boats are hard to sell as slips are hard to find and costly. These boats sure are not candidates for a buyer that wants a weekend boat for short cruising. Angela has one and it is her home. You can't do that in most places in this country and the ones where you can live aboard, like Florida have few slips and even fewer for that wide of a boat.

[kemosabe421]

Tom,

I think the slide in prices will contiue. Especially if oil prices
spike again. I am looking for a 53 classic but I think I would
be crazy to buy now. The 53's have dropped quite a bit over the
last few years. I am going to sit on the sideline and
see what happens.

[Tom Ipock]

I am thinking kinda the same way. I sold my 58MY last year (fortunately at a better price than today's market) and was looking to downsize to a nice 48 or 53. But I think I may wait a while also and see if there is any bottom approaching. I remember riding down the Tech crash in 2001 looking for a bottom that kept sinking. We're going to the Miami show to look ? ? ? No telling what prices may look like there. May be some real deals, but who knows what a deal is today?
Tom

[ThirdHatt]

We have enjoyed the amazing resale values of Hatteras boats for a VERY long time now. Finally due to many factors but mostly 1. hurricane losses driving insurance rates through the roof, 2. less slips available due to storm damages and condo development and 3. oil prices overall, we are seeing some serious depreciation of our beloved boats. It's not just our favorites, all boats have come down and will continue to do so. There will always be a few super nice boats that will bring premium pricing in each market but for the most part they are all coming down and will eventually stabilize but IMHO will not be going back up.

It is a buyers market so if you are buying, ENJOY! If you already own what you want don't worry about the market and just enjoy your boat. If you are selling, you are in a bind. Unless your boat is a truly amazing example, they will probably buy a comparable boat from someone else who is priced to the current market. Drop the price and sell (like I just did with my 41TC) or hang in there, keep paying slip rent and insurance and maintenance and hope somebody falls in love with your boat and doesn't care that it may be priced for a market that is no longer with us.

It hurt to "give away" my beloved 41TC, but it went to some truly great people that are beginning what I hope will be a life-long love of boating in quality boats. It's hard to put a price on that, or the smiles on their faces! :)

[Boss Lady]

I think the realestate party is over and everyone is starting to adjust to it. A lot of boats were bought when things were all rosey. If you need to sell you will not get what you could have a year ago. Boats are toys, not essentials. I saw a new ad for Sea Ray, where they are giving away new GM Denali with each new boat as an incentive to purchase. Supply and demand rules, there are four times the boats on YW today than were a year ago, so prices will be depressed with pristine examples at good prices selling, and lesser boats will only move at give away prices. I think it will be some time before we climb out of this hole, and it may get worse when all the people who have ARM mortgages start having problems. Look at where the prime is today. A lot of people have to come up additional money just to keep their houses. Much less a boat.

[spartonboat1]

As is my wont, I read all the boats-for-sale ads in the latest mid-winter ads in Lakeland Boating (Great Lakes oriented). Seemed as if there were far more ads than in last/prior years. But if Hatts are a glut on the market up here, it was not apparent in the ads. I think I counted a single 43'MY, a single '69 41' MY (for $119k no less), and a few new CV's. A single 53' YF has been on the market for 3 years at $295...might say too high for the market. I've seen it and its not pristine, but passes the 20' test.

There were however, mass quantities of Carvers, SeaRays, other ilk. in those ads. So maybe some baths being taken.

Economist's (sometimes econo-missed's), have a phrase that the bad money chases out the good, i.e. the big, new lower quality craft will depress demand for the older, higher quality, big craft, ne Hatt's, Bert's, (others nominations?) (i.e., Burgers?). However, there is also a concept of a flight/return to quality, and Hatt brokers have told me that buyers don't come around to a vintage Hatt, until they have some "experience" with a couple of go-fast, value-drop-like-a-rock newer boats, in big seas that knocked them around.

Not sure how to include this, but I am in the process of moving to the Detroit area, where house prices are depressed. I am very concerned about over paying. The ever firm Grosse Pointe market had some houses that have dropped prices...saw one that was $375 and has dropped four times to now $260 and still unsold and I know there are other cases.. Many are on the market in Grosse Pointe, but functionality is an issue. Many houses need upgrades and newer windows, furnaces, garages, etc. So "just sitting there", either boats or houses, won't guarantee a firm price at sale. Investment to maintain fairly decent current systems is indicated.

Finally, whoever mentioned selling some/all of the State of MI marinas to generate cash, had a great idea. But I believe that a rigorous review of all the condoized marinas on the Great Lakes will show that they all went bust initially. Then after price correction at auction, they stabilized. So how much $ would they really gen? I know I would buy, but only on the cheap. I know that the developer of large Mich and Wisc condo marinas committed suicide, when they did not fly. It seems as if the venues with excess masses of cash, maybe Calif, Florida, are resistant to price pressure. FL has the problem of marina's disappearing altogether, as they convert to shore-side condos.

Ooops, long...but I'll hang on to my 43' for a few more years. I have standing offers from friends to "pay for the fuel", if you'll "provide the ride" cruises. So I'd like to take them up on that yet.

[Boss Lady]

I agree with you on the quality issue. Once someone learns what a well designed and quality built boat is they will go look at new high quality and get sticker shock, then they tend to start looking at older versions that they can afford. I would have bought a new Hatteras but the boat I wanted is no longer made. So I took the only alternative available, find one and refurbish it. Like everything, old Hatts will be back in favor again.

[Maynard Rupp]

As is my wont, I read all the boats-for-sale ads in the latest mid-winter ads in Lakeland Boating (Great Lakes oriented). Seemed as if there were far more ads than in last/prior years. But if Hatts are a glut on the market up here, it was not apparent in the ads. I think I counted a single 43'MY, a single '69 41' MY (for $119k no less), and a few new CV's. A single 53' YF has been on the market for 3 years at $295...might say too high for the market. I've seen it and its not pristine, but passes the 20' test.

There were however, mass quantities of Carvers, SeaRays, other ilk. in those ads. So maybe some baths being taken.

Economist's (sometimes econo-missed's), have a phrase that the bad money chases out the good, i.e. the big, new lower quality craft will depress demand for the older, higher quality, big craft, ne Hatt's, Bert's, (others nominations?) (i.e., Burgers?). However, there is also a concept of a flight/return to quality, and Hatt brokers have told me that buyers don't come around to a vintage Hatt, until they have some "experience" with a couple of go-fast, value-drop-like-a-rock newer boats, in big seas that knocked them around.

Not sure how to include this, but I am in the process of moving to the Detroit area, where house prices are depressed. I am very concerned about over paying. The ever firm Grosse Point market had some houses that have dropped prices...saw one that was $375 and has dropped four times to now $260 and still unsold and I know there are other cases.. Many are on the market in Grosse Pointe, but functionality is an issue. Many houses need upgrades and newer windows, furnaces, garages, etc. So "just sitting there", either boats or houses, won't guarantee a firm price at sale. Investment to maintain fairly decent current systems is indicated.

Finally, whoever mentioned selling some/all of the State of MI marinas to generate cash, had a great idea. But I believe that a rigorous review of all the condoized marinas on the Great Lakes will show that they all went bust initially. Then after price correction at auction, they stabilized. So how much $ would they really gen? I know I would buy, but only on the cheap. I know that the developer of large Mich and Wisc condo marinas committed suicide, when they did not fly. It seems as if the venues with excess masses of cash, maybe Calif, Florida, are resistant to price pressure. FL has the problem of marina's disappearing altogether, as they convert to shore-side condos.

Ooops, long...but I'll hang on to my 43' for a few more years. I have standing offers from friends to "pay for the fuel", if you'll "provide the ride" cruises. So I'd like to take them up on that yet.
You are correct about the depressed market in Grosse Pointe. I live there. Both of my sons have moved to Florida. One sold his very nice home in our area during the down turn. he did fine. My other son decided to maintain a Grosse Pointe presence. Big mistake. He owns a very nice newer duplex in Grosse Pointe Park. He had it on the market for $550k and is now down to $335 k. It is a great buy for a smaller family or one that needs two units,(mother in law or whatever). Second unit can be good income producer. Still no takers even though he has a lovely corner lot one block from the lake. This house is in great shape, modern kitchen etc. PM me if you wan't more info.

[SKYCHENEY]

Tom, a broker friend of mine said that widebody boats are hard to sell as slips are hard to find and costly. These boats sure are not candidates for a buyer that wants a weekend boat for short cruising. Angela has one and it is her home. You can't do that in most places in this country and the ones where you can live aboard, like Florida have few slips and even fewer for that wide of a boat.

Tom was refering to the 58MY series II. It is a "widebody" with a beam of 18'2". The boat Angela owns is a 58MY series I. It has a beam of 15"10". The comment about finding slips for a widebody (18-20' beam) boat is correct. Many of the slips were built long ago and can only accomodate a boat with a maximum beam of 18'. At our marina, we have a 60MY that just squeezes into his slip. He cannot tie the boat so that it is not touching either the dock or the pilings on the other side. This is not an ideal situation and may indeed be a reason that you see some of the widebody boats priced at or near the level of the 1510's.

[Genesis]

Anything within 100 miles of Detroit is in the gutter, but anyone who didn't see this coming 20 years ago had to be blind.

I grew up near Detroit; my Dad worked at a glass shop as the controller/CPA for them on Myers Road in "Detroit Proper." Complete with having his car and/or the wheels on it stolen at least once a year.

That area has been radically overpriced for a very long time, and is inextricably tied to the auto industry. Of course the problem is that the auto industry built itself on a pedestal with no foundation in basic economics and was due for a collapse. Now its here. Surprise. Not.

Florida is a bit different. There you have an overheated real estate marketplace but the REAL trouble is coming from the dual squeeze in insurance and marina conversions. The former is largely driven by people who walked away from boats they couldn't really afford (or didn't like) when a storm was coming instead of securing them, had them destroyed and got paid. Of course those of us who don't do silly stuff like that get to pay for those who do.

The other problem - disappearance of public marina space and/or deterioration of those that are left as the dwindling supply means that maintenance goes un-done and prices continue to rise - is a more difficult problem.

Those two issues combined were why I sold Gigabite, and I see no indication that these problems are abating whatsoever. If anything the issue continues to accelerate.

[DLCameron2]

Hi Karl:

Being from the Detroit area (lifetime 49 years) and involved in the auto industry for over 26 years; I will try not to take offense from your remarks. Look at the stock market, look at the overall economy as a whole. Values of real estate and yachts ebb and flow for a number of reasons. We "aren't dead yet" here in Detroit.....although unemployment is the highest in the US in Michigan, major problems at Ford are one of the biggest drivers. That should be construed as mismanagement not being on a pedestal IMHO.

I hope all the Detroiters who are buying real estate in Florida do not slow down and cause a major drop in condo prices....hahaha. :D

DC

[Boss Lady]

Karl, you also left out the feeling of being gouged when you can get maintenance done. I always got the feeling when at a marina or yard down there that I was standing there with real land sharks circling me, they saw "their" money in my pocket and were trying to figure out how to get it without doing anything. They didn't usually even try to hide the fact that you were at their mercy. You would think they would at least be polite while giving you a screw job. It doesn't take too many times of getting the shaft and you start to lose your enthusiam for boating.

[Boss Lady]

Hi Karl:

Being from the Detroit area (lifetime 49 years) and involved in the auto industry for over 26 years; I will try not to take offense from your remarks. Look at the stock market, look at the overall economy as a whole. Values of real estate and yachts ebb and flow for a number of reasons. We "aren't dead yet" here in Detroit.....although unemployment is the highest in the US in Michigan, major problems at Ford are one of the biggest drivers. That should be construed as mismanagement not being on a pedestal IMHO.

I hope all the Detroiters who are buying real estate in Florida do not slow down and cause a major drop in condo prices....hahaha. :D

DC

Hey DC, I lived in Grand Rapids a few years ago and visited Detroit regularly. There is definitely a different culture there. My job required me to visit different factories and a lot of them made stuff for the auto industry. I never had a conversation about the industry that did not get ma barrage of union canned propaganda. I am from the south and was not familiar with unions, so I asked questions and people would get pissed off and usually made threats over the simpliest questions and all I was doing was trying to learn about my northern cousins. It reminded me of the North Koreans. Management=bad, union=good. This was just my observation. I am however worried about the surviablilty of our American car companies. Toyota just announced a new plant for Arkansas and five more in the near future. I don't think that Toyota has the relationship problems that Ford, GM or Dodge have and their workers make less. I think that the finger pointing should stop and everyone better start working as a team or else I won't be able to buy a new Ford Duelly when my 2006 diesel wears out.

[Maynard Rupp]

Hey DC, I lived in Grand Rapids a few years ago and visited Detroit regularly. There is definitely a different culture there. My job required me to visit different factories and a lot of them made stuff for the auto industry. I never had a conversation about the industry that did not get ma barrage of union canned propaganda. I am from the south and was not familiar with unions, so I asked questions and people would get pissed off and usually made threats over the simpliest questions and all I was doing was trying to learn about my northern cousins. It reminded me of the North Koreans. Management=bad, union=good. This was just my observation. I am however worried about the surviablilty of our American car companies. Toyota just announced a new plant for Arkansas and five more in the near future. I don't think that Toyota has the relationship problems that Ford, GM or Dodge have and their workers make less. I think that the finger pointing should stop and everyone better start working as a team or else I won't be able to buy a new Ford Duelly when my 2006 diesel wears out.
The real problem with Toyota or Honda is that the profits from selling their cars to you guys go to Japan. Yes, Chrysler profits go to Germany also. The unions are the real problem that we have with the Detroit economy. They have created an un-realistic pay scale for talent and effort expended. As a pilot I can tell you that Airline pilots and ALPA have created the same thing. That is one of the major contributors to the airlines economic problems. The other problem Detroit has is an incredible welfare group. Thank you Democrats. More of this will come now. :mad:

[Genesis]

Hi Karl:

Being from the Detroit area (lifetime 49 years) and involved in the auto industry for over 26 years; I will try not to take offense from your remarks. Look at the stock market, look at the overall economy as a whole. Values of real estate and yachts ebb and flow for a number of reasons. We "aren't dead yet" here in Detroit.....although unemployment is the highest in the US in Michigan, major problems at Ford are one of the biggest drivers. That should be construed as mismanagement not being on a pedestal IMHO.

I hope all the Detroiters who are buying real estate in Florida do not slow down and cause a major drop in condo prices....hahaha. :D

DC
My father's side of my family grew up in River Rouge; I was raised south of Detroit. My Dad was born in 1926 and my Granddad worked at the steel plant in RR. I think we've got a bit of history in the Detroit area.....

I was raised around the "one true union way." At 13 I figured out how big of a scam it was - about the time I started programming computers. I saw "union guys" come into the place my Dad worked at, put in about 4 hours of honest effort, and walk off with 8 hours of pay. Saw Chrysler's Trenton Engine Plant go from "best of the best" to bust and back up when they got bailed out and Iacocca was considered - for a time - a minor deity. After all, the engine plant was less than a dozen miles from my home as the crow flies.

I grew up boating on the Detroit River and Lake Erie.

In the late 70s I tried to get my parents to leave the Detroit area, having analyzed the economic situation and discerning that the cyclical nature and totally unsupportable union structure was eventually going to lead to a meltdown that would butcher the entire southern half of the state. They, of course, believing in the Santa Claus of economic foolishness that one can spend beyond one's means, refused.

In the mid 1980s I left, never to return. They still, 20 years later, consider me a traitor. I have watched as it has all come true in slow motion. They've just crested 80 and have enough money to live it out. Ok. I sure wasn't going to join them on the escalator down and neither was my kid.

There is nothing wrong with the US economy as a whole, beyond the structural problems in the US Government that we must either fix in the next decade or two or we will all be worrying about how much ammunition and soap we have; boats and even cars will not be a concern.

There is plenty wrong with SE Michigan, and the problems are neither new nor can they be solved without cataclysmic upheaval. The labor cost structures in ALL of the US automakers are totally out of control and impossible to fund. Health care for both working and retired autoworkers costs more per car than steel. That's completely insane, yet it is the consequence of corporate boards who said "yes" and agreed to contractual terms that were totally unsustainable over the long term, just as our government has done with senior citizens and Social Security/Medicare. The entirety of SE Michigan from roughly Flint to Jackson south and east is that without the auto industry there is nothing; its a HUGE part of the total economy and as GM, Ford and Chrysler go, so do they. Overconcentration of one industry is always dangerous; reliance on an industry with a broken cost structure that is unable to be fixed without scrapping the entire thing and starting over is suicidal.

What Detroit is going through now is what the entire nation will go through in 30 years, unless we wise up. There's an object lesson here but few are paying attention....

(This is an old thread - I'm going to move it out of "tech" as it really isn't a technical thing.... but its definitely Hatteras - or any other "big boat" - related!)

[kemosabe421]

Moved where?

[Boss Lady]

I have a small manufacturing company here in NC. I try to explain to my workers that they are not working for me, but they in fact are working for themselves. We are a team, I provide the work and the do it. I can't do it without them and they have nothing do without me. I have told them about the worker who wants their job and he is not their neighbor but lives several thousand miles away, and works for $1.60 in wages per day. He comes from Vietnam, China and several other countries. I plan on hanging a picture of one of them in the break room. With a description of their work ethic so they can see what they are up against. If I can't make any money then they will not have a place to work and earn a living for their families. I am a hold out, we manufacture with american materials and labor. My competition uses foriegn materials and labor. They are greedy which leaves room so I can still compete, albeit at a lower profit margin. If they were willing to make less profit, I would be forced to close. We are in an economic war of survival. Our country is in deep trouble. Manufacturing has provided the means for a large middle class, from the blue collar worker to the managment and engineering jobs, a plant closure affects everyone. We will have entire generations that will not regain their previous level of income. You cannot easily go from fork lift driver to high tech overnight. We cannot compete with the labor prices found overseas, their wages will come up some, ours will definitely continue to fall. Even the Mexicans were priced out of the market at $1.50 an hour. The unions will cause the final collapse of the car companies, unless they can recognize what will happen if they don't change their position.

[spartonboat1]

I gotta add a quick note about Toyota, Unions, work ethic.

Toyota has been adding capacity rapidly and under the radar of the press, has had 9.4 million recalls since 2004 or so. They just brought back a hot-shot exec from Europe to fix this issue and he is adding centers of excellence to try to rise back to the levels of low R's/100 of the past (R/100- bugs for every 100 units).

The union has seen the light at several plants and in Lansing MI they have one of the highest internal quality measures in the world. New 5M sq ft plant produces twice as many cars as the old 10M sq ft plant it replaces (4 x productive), plus is flex mfg. Fed by most highly automated logisitics site (its an automated warehouse!, but I digress) in all of Ryder Logistics at 1.5M sq ft.

South of Detroit in Dundee, MI is the most automated engine plant in the world- all lights out and no HS grads need apply- only Journeyman and college grads there, plus no work rules- you learn to do it all.

If GM (Ford's got other issues- product) can fix the Health Care issue, then Toyota will face an increasing old work force itself.


Finally, due to the artificially low Yen in the early days, Toyota was selling a $25,000 car for $18 thou...not a level playing field. GM with SAIC in China may be able to fight back. Me? I haven't been in the auto area for 20 years...far too severe in the plants back then.

Gotta run...my 2CW

[Boss Lady]

I gotta add a quick note about Toyota, Unions, work ethic.

Toyota has been adding capacity rapidly and under the radar of the press, has had 9.4 million recalls since 2004 or so. They just brought back a hot-shot exec from Europe to fix this issue and he is adding centers of excellence to try to rise back to the levels of low R's/100 of the past (R/100- bugs for every 100 units).

The union has seen the light at several plants and in Lansing MI they have one of the highest internal quality measures in the world. New 5M sq ft plant produces twice as many cars as the old 10M sq ft plant it replaces (4 x productive), plus is flex mfg. Fed by most highly automated logisitics site (its an automated warehouse!, but I digress) in all of Ryder Logistics at 1.5M sq ft.

South of Detroit in Dundee, MI is the most automated engine plant in the world- all lights out and no HS grads need apply- only Journeyman and college grads there, plus no work rules- you learn to do it all.

If GM (Ford's got other issues- product) can fix the Health Care issue (oh, Hilllaaaryyy- come help us), then Toyota will face an increasing old work force itself.


Finally, due to the artificially low Yen in the early days, Toyota was selling a $25,000 car for $18 thou...not a level playing field. GM with SAIC in China may be able to fight back. Me? I haven't been in the auto area for 20 years...far too severe in the plants back then.

Gotta run...my 2CW
Good to know info. I know nothing first hand about the unions. All I know is that we are all in this together and just like the founding fathers stated before the first shot was fired "gentlemen, we must all hang together, or surely we will all hang seperately"!

[Genesis]

The problem is, the unions don't see it that way.

They see it as "us and then us some more."

That worked before high speed communications between nations existed, making it possible to run logistics at a reasonable cost anywhere in the world. It simply wasn't possible to respond in a reasonable amount of time across national boundaries. As such there was a "natural" nationalism when it came to manufacturing.

That sort of problem no longer exists, and when the total cost, including shipping big things, is less overseas, then we lose bigtime. Don't underestimate by how much the "total cost of production" has to beat that in the US before transoceanic shipping (especially of things like cars!) makes sense - its a BIG number - and is a big part of why those companies are setting up factories HERE.

Unfortunately the only "fix" for these structural problems in the workforce is to repudiate what was promised, just like is going to be necessary with social security and medicare. There is no other way out of the box! Small steps will not do the job - big, bold ones are necessary.

I'm not in any way confident that there will be a solution short of a complete collapse of the US-based auto industry. And the quality issues, despite people's claims, are NOT fixed - I have an '02 Suburban that has steering shaft issues that keep coming back every 10,000 miles or so. Big deal? No, but its an expense now that its out of warranty that I shouldn't have to bear. And it doesn't hold alignment well either..... if/when it wears out, do you think this will factor into whether I'll buy another US-built truck? Yep.

Better than the 70s mess? Sure. Good enough? Maybe. But what it should be? No, and when you couple it with the cost issues you've got real trouble...the foreign guys have taken notice of the truck market too - you gotta wonder how long it will be before they tattoo "F150" in their sights as "the vehicle to kill". Then what?

[Walter P]

I guess I'm just plain dumb - I still buy American cars. We presently have 3 cars, an 02 Olds Bravada SUV (w. 100,000 mi) a new full size Caddy for Monica and a couple of years old Chevy Astro van as my "boat stuff vehicle".

The Bravada has served me well and I really do use it off road quite a bit at my construction sites, I'll drive it to death. Same with the Astro van, the Caddy is my least favorite car for many reasons, mainly I don't fit well. (I'm 6'6" 250 lbs) so I rarely ever use it or even ride in it. Point with all this is that Detroit is very capable of producing reliable pretty good transportation. I agree in part that labor costs absolutely contribute to the problem along with perks like Med. coverage, retirement packages etc. The reason that it's only a part of the problem is that like any large organization their is an inordinate amount of fat at all levels of management. Years ago our car companies were usually run by CAR guys, today it's by bean counters or marketing people. Todays management does not seem to understand that most consumers would probably pay a little more for better quality. The quest to save 6 cents on a window switch or a better grade of plastic for some interior components is doing in the American auto industry just as sure as the cost of labor. I am not defending the labor unions, far from it - the problem is that the excesses of the unions are more obvious than those of management (read - greed).

When foreign cars started hitting our shores in the beginning, their main claim to fame was low cost, cheap transportation. Detroit was oblivious to the threat. After so many examples of bad, "management" they still don't seem to get it. Foreign imports now cost as much and in most cases actually more than our domestic products. I believe that when our quality improves even more than it already has, we can re-capture our position. Americans have demonstrated over and over that when the chips are down, we can overcome whatever we need to. I do not believe that the chips have come down enough yet, but they will.

German cars are not cheap, neither are the best most successful Jap cars, but while we older guys used to refer to imported goods from Japan as imports from Junkland, German cars were really never cheap, but were always high quality - the Japanese learned quickly. We need to re-learn. Incidently, this mentality does not only apply to cars, but all products. Hatteras Yachts have been very successful because of their reputation for high quality. High quality costs $$$$, but we of all people know that.

If you can hang in there and hold on to your present Hatteras, I believe that the inheritant value will prevail.

Sorry for the long rant but I guess I needed to express my feelings - my cup is never half empty, it's half full.

Walt

[captddis]

Add me to the dumb list as well. I only buy American vehicles. Of the most recent vehicles I had a 91 Suburban diesel that I had 9 years and sold to my brother @ 125,000mi. It now has about 400,000 mi. The 2000 Silverado was traded last year@ 89,000 mi. the only repair was a fuel press regulator replaced for free. Still had the factory brakes as well. My current 06 Silverado has been flawless. I order them with all the bells and whistles, they are roomy and comfortable and get better mileage that their riceburner counterparts! When I figure my cost per year to own, it is less than my friends Honda! The only negative with the two Silverados was the steering shaft clunk that required greasing yearly as Karl mentioned. They say they have a fix for that now.
My wife has had domestic cars as well, We also had 3 Camrys over a 7 year period and had a trans problem with the 95 that showed up around 3000 mi, it took 3 trips to the dealer to fix. [ they said nothing was wrong] The other two were nothing special and had no where the comfort as the current Sable, which has been trouble free as well.
I always find it humourous that the biggest whiners about outsourcing are the same people who buy the cheapest stuff and buy foreign vehicles.
I am no fan of the unions, But it is equally disturbing to see executives getting 30, 40 million dollar salaries while their companies are going down the tubes. Then they have the nerve to tell the low paid worker who is making the product that they have to take cut in pay. How about a CEO taking a 1 million salary and bonuses based on performance?

[Maynard Rupp]

The Detroit area is my home and I have read all these comments. You are all correct about the union problem, quality and all that. Retirement of non-union folks is another problem the auto guys have. The company I retired from,(natural gas industry), sent me a letter telling me that all retiree benefits are cancelled. Yes, the only part of your non-contributory retirement package that is guaranteed is the $. :( I have an 80 year old friend that retired from Chrysler at 60. For 20 years he has enjoyed an incredible health care package and gets 2 new cars a year for $800/ month. This includes everything except gasoline, even insurance. This year they dropped his medical, but put $3800/year in an account to help him pay for what I dig in my pocket for. Most folks really don't believe what incredible legacy costs the US automakers have. Like most young people from Detroit, my kids have moved to Florida and are doing great. They moved for two reasons; to get away from the auto industry economy and because of the blight in Detroit. Blight, and the associated welfare are very serious problems in Detroit. Don't be surprised if you hear that Detroit is bankrupt. :mad: Think about all this when you plan on buying a Toyota because of its percieved superior reliability. :rolleyes:

[Boatsb]

Maynard I understand why the kids move south. I left Long Island because I could not afford to live there. Interesting enough I know of people in union jobs making 2-3 times what the job pays in Florida. And the poor guy in Florida has to actually work.

If we would start a new program of accountability it may actually change the economy.

[yachtsmanbill]

Well put Maynard !! As a 30 year IBEW member (ret) from CommonWealth Edison in Chicago my pension is my lifeline. I was a bad boy in my youth, and they saved me several times as well. Although my early package precludes me from major medical until I reach 55, it is then available (blue cross) at 50% of the group rate. That will cost me about$250/month. For now, I am on my SOs policy which is fair in comparison.
Here I was contemplating buying 2 Mitsubishi Heavy Diesels for the Hatt-- NOT !!

I still miss my 1968 Buick Electra 225. Love my 1963 Roamer, and cant wait to put my 1974 Hatteras back on line. ws

[jim rosenthal]

I usually stay out of these political debates, but in this case I have an anecdote which might have something to contribute.

I have an acquaintance named Paul Smith who owns a company that makes electric guitars, here in the Annapolis area. They are rather high-end items; quite a few famous musicians play PRS guitars, including Carlos Santana, who was the first of many to switch from Fender and Gibson to PRS. Carlos was their first and still their most visible endorser. Instrument endorsements are key in this business because which guitar one plays is not a matter of clear-cut superiority nearly as much as a matter of individual preference.

A few years back Paul, following the advice of savvy people in his company, decided to explore manufacturing PRS guitars in the Far East- a separate line of instruments built down to a price, endorsed by Carlos, and similar but not identical to the Maryland-built guitars. Two friends of mine who worked for Paul were sent over to Korea to look around and settle on a factory which could do the job for them.

They did not pick the least expensive one by any means. Working conditions were one of their criteria, including plant safety. They picked a plant that could make what they wanted, and that also had decent working conditions and reliability record. But the message was clear- if price was your only object, and you did not morally object to supporting sweatshop working conditions, you could get your product done even cheaper. If you could live with yourself for doing so.

Well, plenty of people can live with themselves. There are a variety of rationales that they employ, I suppose, none of which are acceptable to me. Chris, you are right that your employees' competition is the Asian worker who will build the same thing for less money. However, some of your employees' competition may indirectly be Americans who will buy anything as long as it's the cheapest goods out there, regardless of who made it and what kind of squalor they labor in. I thinkl working conditions are slowly getting better, but I try to buy things that are made in countries that have some kind of regulations about this, because they are not improving fast enough. And with regard to health care, I don't think that most Asian workers have any kind of health care at all. If Americans were willing to work the kind of hours, with no benefits, living in worker housing, etc etc, that overseas workers do, we would produce goods just as cheaply as Asians do.

Because, back in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, American workers did just that.

I also agree that the bloated packages that unions have negotiated will end up killing the industries they work in; I am pessimistic that they will see the light and realize that the era of cushy union deals made with a gun to the heads of management are long over.

With regard to the Democrats, don't forget that welfare reform was pushed through by both sides during a Democratic administration. It's possible that a hard-headed, clear-thinking Democratic administration can push health care insurance reform through, if they get support from everyone. Certainly everyone is sick of the current situation- I know, I work in it every day. Other than drug companies, who refuse to admit it, no one is very happy with the status quo.

[Boatsb]

Jim the question comes up of why did they need to build cheaper Guitars? If they were truly building only quality instruments the knockoffs would be unnecessary. Some of it comes from what I see here and elsewhere.

The best example is people spending untold hours searching for better pricing on line as long as they save a few bucks. No support for the ones in business in the area offering service like sams (our host). Why are some people so driven on price only? Why do companies prey on this ? All good questions.

I know the other option is now the Worst Marine or other chains controling the market but this is because we as a group do not support the local value added shops and marinas. That and there is less of them around each year to support.

I hear so much good about Slanes, Sams and others and that people are doing major work there then I see boaters only looking to save a buck and use golf cart batteries or automotive componants to save money and not take into account the lower quality products or the safety issues that may arrise.

Just my $.02 but will anyone actually change ?

[Genesis]

There's no problem with shopping for the best value.

That's what we're all doing.

Those who whine about consumers who shop only based on price are complaining because they aren't offering a value proposition.

The local chandlers are a great example. We have a couple here. They're dying. Why? Not because you can order cheaper from defender (you can) - but because they're arrogant, snooty, AND not somewhat more expensive - but FAR more expensive! You don't get to insult me AND take more of my money. Sorry, that's not a good bargain no matter how its sliced.

Complaining about executive pay is a non-starter. Take the CEO's entire cash salary (ignore options as that money is paid by the public equities market when exercised, not the company) and distribute it among the workers. Its pennies, and totally irrelevant ($100 million a year means nothing to a company that is turning $50 billion in sales annually)

The simple fact of the matter is that sector concentration makes you rich when things go your way, and makes you broke when they do not. Add organized labor into the mix with their singular goal of maximizing the "blue collar" income - no matter the long-term cost to the industries they're bargaining with - and you've got something that will eventually blow up.

Ask Pittsburgh; Detroit failed to learn from them, and the counterpoint (Chicago), which had a huge base of steel and heavy industry, but which also diversified into technology, finance and services. When steel went in the toilet Chicago didn't fall apart - but Pittsburgh, with an overreliance in one sector controlled by organized labor, did.

Even when the economy as a whole is in the toilet so long as you're willing to get out of bed in the morning you'll never starve in the Windy City.....

[Boatsb]

I agree with shopping for value but thats not what I see being the retail/ resale sector.

I have people coming to demo items then go on line for a better deal after coming into my shop. (not the boating side but high end professional video) They will piss on me if they could save 10 bucks and take the chance without support.

The chandlery has no business getting snooty and pricing too high but its their response to the big guys and the market conditions. The problem is too many manufacturers sell volume for discount causing the whores to lower their prices to meet the volume demand. It how they respond to the the price shoppers. The circle continues.

[SKYCHENEY]

Back to the comments about the new GM Lansing facility. I live just down the road from that plant and I know a guy who's son works there. His job is to fix the problems with the cars coming out of there. He has been working OT just trying to get the cars to run. They assemble them and there are so many sensors and junk on them that they can't even start most of them to drive them off of the line. So, he and some other guys are the in charge of tracking down these problems.

They may claim to have the best quality once they roll out the door, but what I heard is far from that while they are still on the factory floor. Is this true? I have no way of knowing for sure, but I wouldn't doubt it, really.

[GaryNW]

These threads may divert from boats (let alone Hatts) but they become irresistable somehow. My .02:
The union problem is self-correcting. I just heard the # is now down to 12% of the workforce and has been rapidly and steadily declining for decades.

Off-loading and offshoring: Ain't going away and probably shouldn't. I've been retired for almost 4 years and went early at 56. Got the pension, 401K and my full med plan for $10/month. Aerospace engineering. Guess what- there are not enough engineers in the USA to handle what Boeing alone has on their table. And half of the engineering students in the US are foreign. A very good friend is a senior engineering manager on 777. At a given time, half of his engineers don't speak english and don't live here. They do daily video conferences with Moscow and several Asian companies, everyone smiles and by the next day, they all are up to speed on what was said in the last conference! The dems and republicans both agree on the importance of education.

Capitalism is so powerfull, even the strongest advocates have always underestimated it. We keep reinventing and people keep buying totally unnecesary stuff (video consuls & games). Just when you think its over, something new comes along. Years ago the Olympic peninsula in Wa was in ruins do to loss of logging jobs (spotted owls and other issues). Now Westport yachts have over 700 employees at three yards building megayachts. At it's peak, Uniflite was around 500 jobs (for comparison).

Capitalism won the cold war-not missiles and soldiers. Yeltsin visited a typical supermarket in Tx on a visit (probably to Bush 1). He was floored by what he saw and knew that it was over. Fifty types of soap, ten brands of milk, tons of comfort foods- and probably hundreds of items that he could not even identify! He knew that building more subs would accomplish nothing.

Offloading? I'll bet SC is happy to have offloaded Seattle jobs! Enuf for now,

Gary

[jim rosenthal]

I don't have all the answers on this, obviously, but I can answer the question about why PRS chose to build less expensive guitars; at the time they made that decision, they did not offer anything that cost less than about fifteen hundred dollars at the dealer. The market for new guitars has been stable for several years- while it may not be shrinking, it isn't getting any bigger, either. So any new sales for PRS would have to have been at the expense of all the other companies in the market, particularly the big two- Fender, and Gibson. PRS did not have an entry-level instrument, and they needed one.

As with boats, most people start with a beginner electric guitar and work their way up. They do not start with a fifteen hundred dollar instrument which is the lowest cost on a ladder of professional tools. They start with a Yamaha, Fender or Gibson, etc. Cheap guitars are so good now that any professional could take one to a gig and sound just fine on it. A few years ago I bought my nephew a starter guitar- a Yamaha. I played it (and several similar ones) in the store and was astonished at how good it was- a far cry from my youth, when cheap guitars sounded cheap, and would not play in tune. I could have taken the Yamaha, had it set up, and played any pro blues or R&B gig with that guitar. It wouldn't have sounded like one of my vintage guitars, but it would have done the job fine.

PRS needed, in their judgment, to try to develop a loyalty to their brand of instrument in new players from the beginning- reasoning (correctly I think) that it is a lot easier to get someone to buy a more expensive PRS if they already have one than to get them to switch from a Fender or Gibson or whatever they are currently playing. Not only that, PRS had very strong name and brand visibility and surveys showed that customers would buy a cheaper PRS guitar if it resembled the domestic models and played in a similar way. The fact that the offshore guitars were also endorsed by Carlos Santana was a very shrewd piece of marketing- Santana has shown a remarkable ability to reinvent himself as a pop star by alliances and recording with current highly visible artists (and while himself playing the same old licks that I can't bear to listen to anymore, frankly).

There isn't any question that if there had been the chance to build a less expensive guitar in the USA, PRS would have done it. There was not, and so they took the intelligent choice- they went where they had to to get the job done. The wisdom of that choice has been evident over the several years that the product has been on the market.

Sorry for the lengthy digression. There is some wheat in all this chaff, though; companies will generally do what they need to as a matter of economic necessity. It's up to the customer to decide where they will spend their money. When possible, I would much rather spend it domestically, if there is any way I can. I don't always have that choice, though.

[Boatsb]

I guess they wanted a larger piece of the guitar market and I admit there are so many alternatives that even the old stand bys are made out of the country. the last Guitar I bought was a gibson explorer and made in the USA for sure. My Paul was made here too. I have played the mexican strats and the other imports but I never had one play just right off the shelf. Close but not right.

I think you are right though. If you have a good foriegn guitar set up right it should play better but I miss the tones of the aged wood and the sustain of the explorer ( more than the Paul) along with that neck. That fat beautiful neck but I digress.

My point is and has been that quality can not be made less costly and less costly items are not of the highest quality. That being said remember greed makes some of the items made here overpriced for their quality.

It's hard to quantify but I usually have a fair price for something in mind. If it's avaiilable locally at a place I like the service at, it's done. No need to shop as I have more important things to do. If its way out of line I do some research and see if my expectations are wrong or am I being taken advantage of. The latter is unacceptable.

FWIW I have never gotten a bargain at WM, Wally Mart or many of the mega discounters but I have found some nice deals at BASS, Bethel marine Electronics', Florida Detroit and Automachine ( an engine shop) along with some nice people who went out of their way to help. Price/service=good deal

Would you get lasic surgery from the guy who promises to beat everyone elses price? What about ACME Discount surgicenter? I hear they are bringing in labor from China. Don't even haggle with the guy who checks your prostrate.

I guess i need another beer.

Thanks all for letting me vent. That was cheaper than the blood pressure meds.

[Boss Lady]

One thing is certain, business "will" change with the market place, the question is will the unions change. I think they already are, but only for the worse, I can say that since I just spent a week unsuccessfully trying to justify why one of my product engineers should remain as an exempt employee. Under a new law, traditionally exempt employment categories are being challenged. I mean it is disgusting when a highly skilled, experienced, college degreed engineer will now have to punch a friggin time clock because he no longer is considered to have exempt status, even though he helps formulate corporate decisions. This is how the unions are creating whole new categories from which to recruit since manufacturing has left the country and we are entering into a service oriented economy they have figure out who they can still recruit. So now they have gotten the government to reclassify wholesale categories of middle management, engineering and Information Technology.

[Boatsb]

Everything will change. We can steer some of it but most is out of our control. I think I need a union job. Less work more pay. Sounds good to me.

[SKYCHENEY]

Come work for me. We have a union shop, Teamsters. I have several overpaid positions that you would be more than qualified to do. We had several other businesses that all employed Teamsters too. Guess why we only have one now.

[yachtsmanbill]

Hey Sky-- I need a part time job with bennies--Paid lunch? Double time? Vacation? 401? I'm IN !! :p ws

[Walter P]

Many years ago I think some unions were actually needed to offset abuses of the labor forces. The problem is that our pendulums sometimes swing with too much vigor.

About 15 years ago I was the chairman of the US Coast Guard Aux NY Boat Show booth. My responsibilities included making sure that the booth was well staffed and all of our equipment was operating properly. On the morning of the opening day, myself and a couple of other auxiliarists were setting up the stuff in our booth including a VCR and TV. While running an extension cord to the VCR I was confronted by a representative of the Javits Center union (I don't have a clue which one) and informed in no uncertain terms that I was forbidded to plug my own TV & VCR to the plug in the floor, IT WAS A UNION JOB. I thought he was kidding but he informed me that he was serious. I explained that we were civilian volunteers helping the CG with some public affairs work. Made no difference to him.. Short of calling him a commie pinko and risking an embarasing incident while I was in a full dress CG uniform, I promised him that it wouldn't happen again. I later learned that incidents like that are what caused many companies to stop participating in the NY boat show. Hatteras Yachts was one of them. Seems quite a pity especially since Will Slane got his first really big boost at the NY boat show in the early 60's. Sadly the NY show has become a joke in the boat show circuit. Union problems are not the only reason of course but its right up there with all the others.

Anyone familiar with the term "Prevailing Wage" ? Well it's a well used term on most public bids for various public works projects. What it means is that if your regular work force performs any service on a public works project the labor cost is at least double and sometimes tripple the normal rates so that one of your laborers normally earns $22 per hr, on govt jobs you must pay the same employee $60 per hr. Of course the contractor knows the rules when he bids the job and bids accordingly but guess who's really paying the bill. The labor unions have been so successful over the years that our esteemed political leaders have pandered to them to garner votes by creating the prevailing wage regulation.

Let's not forget that Rome was not conquered from without, it died from it's own excesses.

Walt

[Genesis]

I caused a wildcat walkout in NYC a number of years ago over exactly the same issue. I refused to wait for a "union electrician" to plug in my piece of test equipment at a jobsite while doing contract work for a major (Fortune 50) company there.

Next thing I knew, close to 50 union construction workers in the same building walked off the job. When confronted with what "I had done" by the people I was doing the work for I informed them that they were paying me to work, not sit on my hands, and that if they had labor issues like this they needed to address them or find a contractor that didn't mind being paid to play with himself.

I finished out the contract but to this day will not take work in NYC, nor would I exhibit or attend when the internet-related shows came to town. That sound NYC has repeatedly heard from me due to this sort of nonsense is my wallet snapping shut.

[labrador]

Karl, sound like my father in Chicago many years ago. We had a trade show at Mcormick ctr and shipped in a self contained booth in which you would open the booth on hinges and it would spread open to fill the booth area. The guys in our shop put hasps on the opening part held by screws. You would unscrew the closures and slide the booth open. My father got out his screwdriver and started to unscrew the closure. Someone blew a whistle and over the loudspeaker came "shop steward go to booth 619". He got there and said we need a carpenter and a helper for 1 hr. Mind you the entire place shut down as no one was working because my father was not with the union. So the carpenter and his helper came and in two minutes the both was open and they started to walk away. My father said "where do you think you're going". They said they were done and going to anoyher booth. My farther said "I'm paying for you for an hour and you're not leaving until that hour is up". So they sat for the rest of the hour!

[Boatsb]

First and last yeard I did the NY boat show at Javitz we brought a self contained TV VCR combo. I plugged it in and it was unplugged until the union electricion was able to get there and do it for me. ($350.00) I was told they needed to run the power to my booth and hook it up. He came in plugged it in and asked me to sign his work order and after told me to not wait for him to remove it after the show as he would be busy and was already paid to do it on the workorder.

Talk about abusive charges. We criticize their practices but we still go and give them our hard earned money. I vote with my money. I will not go to that show as a vendor or even an attendee. I try my best to buy american but can't buy union made products at inflated prices if US made non union items are of similar quality and priced fairly.

If we all put off buying major items from union shops until the prices were fair or the quality was right we may get somewhere but too many people take the easy way.

[Mike53C]

From boat prices sinking to American versus Foreign cars to union,...er...issues.
I love this forum.
Union issues, I know.
I used to work for a US company down here in Venezuela, Burroughs it was then called, based in Detroit. The World Headquarters were there. Now it is called Unisys. On the early days of on line terminals, it must have been in the 60's, the venezuelan branch of the company sent me to Detroit to have training on the new terminals. They sent me along with another Field Engineer as we were pompously called, to install terminals and gain hands on "street" experience.
One day we were at some downtown bank, and to speed things up my buddy took one level and I took the other with the idea that if we finished the job early, we would have time for a couple of Bud's before calling it a day.
Well after I installed the software and tested the terminal, a TC500 it was called, the only thing left was to plug the cable going to the telephone wall socket. And plug I did. Just at this moment a guy showed his head at the door and kept staring at me.

You are with the phone company?...he asked.

No, I am with Burroughs. He left without uttering a word.

Five minutes later my friend comes storming thru the same door...
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE??????????
Me?...I don't know what do you mean...
He looks at the machine..
WHO CONNECTED THE CABLE?????
Me.....
AW GAWD...If they find out that I left you alone and you don't even work here I am doomed...
He really was scared...er...pupuless....

Well, Burroughs Headquarters had received a call from the phone company union saying they were going on strike if Burroughs personel kept taking their jobs.
So, while at Detroit I really got hands on experience on how real world worked.
On the other hand I had the chance to visit the Dearborn Museum. Awsome.

[MikeP]

My family on my mother's side were all steel workers in the Pittsburgh area (back when there WAS a steel industry in PB). The interesting part was some of them were labor and some of them were management.

As a kid, visiting in the summer, I had the opportunity to witness some really titanic family arguments re labor/management. I grew up with the impression that both sides were crazy!

However, one telling comment came from my Uncle Frank, a foreman at USS. We were talking about it one day - I was in my early 20's by then and he said that despite his dislike of unions, he had to admit that his comfortable salary resulted from the unions. If they had not bargained for increased salary, his "management" salary would not have increased. USS had to increase his salary proportionally. In "mixed" company he would never admit that, saying that his salary was raised because management determined that his salary should be raised and that it had nothing to do with the union raise.

Many years later, I was the benificiary of the same types of union-influenced raises in the US Gov (FAA Air Traffic Control). Again, the FAA increased the salary of management to keep air traffic managers higher paid than controllers. So, although I totally disagreed with the union on nearly everything, the fact that I could retire when I did with an adequate pension is due to the union. I would really be a hypocrite not to acknowledge that fact even though I wanted them disbanded the entire time!

I think the point made re the pendulum is the right one. We tend to swing dramatically, never slowing in the middle where "common sense" resides.

However, I will categorically state that anyone should be able to plug their item into a wall outlet anytime they want to do so!!

[Genesis]

Ok, here's my McCormick story.

My company was based in Chicago. Downtown, in 2 Prudential. "The Spike" as I called it, to be distinguished from "The Slab" (1 Pru).

Anyway, McCormick had Spring Comdex every other year. We exhibited there regularly, and fought with the union monkeys about as regularly.

The last show we did there before I sold the company we had a truckload of collateral materials (paper handouts, premium giveaways like pens, coffee mugs, etc) that were in the loading area, along with our driver. The driver had been there since 10:00 AM, sitting.

Well, 4:00 came around. The union guys started to disperse, without unloading our stuff. The show opened in the morning.

I grabbed our staff and headed for the dock. The remaining union guys asked what we were doing. I told them - "we're unloading our stuff". They said "no you're not." I said "yes we are, and if you attempt to physically prevent us from doing so I will file assault charges (as I withdrew my cellphone from my pocket and flipped it open, prepared to call 911 if necessary.) We have hand trucks in our vehicle and are going to use them."

We did; the next morning we had McCormick management over trying to give me a hard time. I pointed out that I was more than willing to pay their people to work, but they didn't seem to want to be paid to work, they wanted to screw off and then go home when it suited them, and we had work to get done. We'd been waiting all day and I'd been paying my employee to sit on his ass while their union boys hung out on the dock and smoked their cigarettes. If they wanted us to have their goons do the job, they could show up and actually do it, and I was fine with paying for that. Absent them doing their job we were going to do it for them and they were going to lose out, since they obviously didn't want to do the work - whether they liked it or not.

[Trojan]

I worked on both sides the fence. I believe in unions, BUT I dislike the fact that they protect the lazy slacker and he received the same or greater pay than me. The boss would give me his work because I would get it done and I was getting a lesser pay than the slacker because he had a longer service time. I left the union because I wanted to get paid for what I know and what I did. Not for how many years I had worked at the job. When I traveled for a company I also ran into unions and my job work. I got away with it by an agreement that stated. As long as the equipment belonged to my company I could work on it without union intervention. Once it was turned over to the company. I had to get permission from the union and needed a union person there. The only complaint I have is, the unions retirement is protected mine is not.

BILL

[Paul45c]

Unions may have started with noble aims that no one can argue, really, but what they've morphed into is just not fit for America, full stop. Compulsory unionism to even work in some markets/specialties, union bosses being exempt from prosecution for violence they directly incite, intimidation, and all the other on-the-workplace nonsense and lack of productivity others have cited...you can keep it. It's hard to imagine we're not some banana republic putting up with that kind of crap.

Now how do I REALLY feel about unions?! :D

[Boss Lady]

The really scary part about unions is can anyone tell me what type of organization they are (corporation or what) and under what legal entity the are chartered by and who actually owns them? I have not been able to find out anything on them. I got started trying to figure this out when a friend's employer was being assaulted by the communications workers of america and was trying to figure out who actually controls these guys. It is a big black hole. Can anyone shed some light on this?

[Tom Ipock]

Man, This Thread Took A Turn ! ! !
Tom

[SKYCHENEY]

One of the businesses we had employed Teamsters and we paid into the Teamsters pension fund. We paid the rates that they dictated for 31 years. At the time we sold the business, they said we owed more to the pension, a withdrawal liability. Apparently the union bosses had squandered all of the funds and there was not enough there to pay out to the retirees. We shared in this unfunded liability because as the contract was written, every employer was also a trustee of the pension fund. We had no say in how it was run or what they invested in, but we were left holding the bag in the end. What a scam. I'll take a 401K anyday as opposed to letting some union boss play with my pension money.

[spartonboat1]

Man, This Thread Took A Turn ! ! !
Tom
OK, gloves dropped...I realize the unions can be their own worst enemy...but before I went back to "collage, or college, while I screwed cars together at night...why do people refer to graduating as 'getting out'"...anyway I am a past member of the UAW, two different sites, the Seaman's International Union (SIA- Detroit used to have the SIA and Chicago the National Maritime (NMU), and finally the United Papermakers and Paperworkers (UPPW).

There is one prime reason I returned to college...many jobs working for insane management at major corps. My assumption was "if they can be a manager, gee, I can be a manager".

E.g., a Fortune 30 company had management at the site where we were UPPW was the most totally fouled up organization I have ever seen, and I say that with 40 years of mgmt behind me. I loved returning to the Operations Research college classes straining gnats...while the mfg. plant with 20M (million) unit capacity per month was down 30% of the time and ran scrap 50%, with a total production of under 10M units per month. Zero Prev Maint. So I guess OpsRes could compute that lost production; can you say no profit margin?

I was dangerous with my engineering training so I knew how to do the setups- very highly complex systems... but we ran record production...result..."Gen Foreman sez, 'You're sitting...you can't sit, you need to be up an moving'. I replied we are making record production (set a record that night) and so with the two lines 100% up, I am without a need to work." Not a good answer...a-- chewed, off I went and rebuilt every last bad "head" (for turning parts) in the place. Union freaked out the next day and eventually new work rules were created. Did I blame the union? No!

There's not enough space here to tell all the crazy stories that happened in that place. Retired fireman sez to Plant Engineer in fire training class "you're doing that all wrong!"..No he's told...it's ok. Four weeks later the entire warehouse is ablaze (8 hours) and threatened the plant. (I observed them start the fire...did just what he advised against). Insanely, I was on the roof with a fire hose...could have fallen in...oh, well. Every pumper in town was at that blaze...all nice flammable paper. P.s., the union got the blame when they finally shut down.

Who steers the ship? The union? Not really...ask a great lakes wheelsman who sets the course. Why did the 700' ship I was on go aground dead on to the beach at Drummond Island (N. Lk Huron) in 1966, missing the harbor by 1/2 mile at 4am? It was the 1st and 2nd mates down in the bow screaming at each other to assess the damage. BTW, we were light, so pumped out and floated off. :p Who decided to stay out when the Morrell, Cedarville, Bradley, and Fitzgerald went down. No one at the union hall.

So yup, Unions esp. in big city have to accept some of the blame...I assure you I have seen wild and crazy union behavior. But mgmt I have seen in some places were their own worst enemy...so the old country western song "I've always been crazy cuz it kept me from going insane" is apt for some shops I have seen. :rolleyes: It applies to the Asian run shops here too. I was in a vendor shop to Honda and I can read an Xbar-n-R chart...lots of bad parts going out. Manager admitted been dispatching sorting crews.

I could on, but would be even more boring.

But this is why they split these threads off the tech chat thread. :D

[Boss Lady]

Watched the news tonight and fox did a piece on the Ford people who will be losing their jobs. Looks like they will all be getting 12 months of severence pay. They were talking about the on-site day care facility. I was stunned. Did Ford have to provide maids and yardmen too! No wonder the list price of my Duelly was $53,000! I don't begrudge anyone making a living, but I think that holding a company hostage like this is rediculous. We have the largest Goodyear tire plant near where I live, they just ended their 3 month long strike. They must pay pretty good because a lot of them have beach houses, and boats at the coast in addition to their local residence. Not bad for manual labor jobs making tires. It is hard work for sure and they are the most productive plant goodyear has but foreign prices are starting to hurt the company. Everyone will lose eventually and there is no way the workers can survive a pay cut that will put Goodyear on a level playing field with the off shore competition. So I predict that Goodyear will close the plant in the near future. They asked for some modest pay concessions for new hires (lower starting salary) only, and some benefits concessions. To help make the company more competitive. The union walked out. Like I said before, the company will do what it has to do to survive. If they cannot provide a profit for the stock holders the next walk out will be Goodyear's. If it were me, I would rather keep 90% of what I have now then 100% of nothing in the future. So when you hear of the Goodyear Plant in Fayetteville, NC closing you will know why. The union declared victory. This is exactly the problem, you can win all the battles and still lose the war. What will the unions due for these people when the plant closes? The surviving companies in America are in a life and death struggle for their existence, and so is the worker. So there needs to be a partnership or there will be nothing for either party.

[spartonboat1]

Watched the news tonight and fox did a piece on the Ford people who will be losing their jobs. Looks like they will all be getting 12 months of severence pay. They were talking about the on-site day care facility. I was stunned. Did Ford have to provide maids and yardmen too! No wonder the list price of my Duelly was $53,000! I don't begrudge anyone making a living, but I think that holding a company hostage like this is rediculous. We have the largest Goodyear tire plant near where I live, they just ended their 3 month long strike. They must pay pretty good because a lot of them have beach houses, and boats at the coast in addition to their local residence. Not bad for manual labor jobs making tires. It is hard work for sure and they are the most productive plant goodyear has but foreign prices are starting to hurt the company. Everyone will lose eventually and there is no way the workers can survive a pay cut that will put Goodyear on a level playing field with the off shore competition. So I predict that Goodyear will close the plant in the near future. They asked for some modest pay concessions for new hires (lower starting salary) only, and some benefits concessions. To help make the company more competitive. The union walked out. Like I said before, the company will do what it has to do to survive. If they cannot provide a profit for the stock holders the next walk out will be Goodyear's. If it were me, I would rather keep 90% of what I have now then 100% of nothing in the future. So when you hear of the Goodyear Plant in Fayetteville, NC closing you will know why. The union declared victory. This is exactly the problem, you can win all the battles and still lose the war. What will the unions due for these people when the plant closes? The surviving companies in America are in a life and death struggle for their existence, and so is the worker. So there needs to be a partnership or there will be nothing for either party.
Both parties need to learn to put the "talk" back into their "talks" and include "listen" real fast...

[Walter P]

I suppose since I remember WW2 very well I guess it qualifies me as an official "old coot". As a coot, I've been around the block a few times and one thing I have learned in business is that a good contract can NOT have a winner and a loser, hence the term win-win. I believe we have a common interest in our country and our well being. Hell we own great American boats made in the great state of No. Carolina using components made by Union and Non Union shops. The final product came out pretty good.

Our problem as well documented over the last 10 pages of posts is the excesses by both sides. Karl, I agree that 100 million is a relatively small percentage of 50 billion, but in my opinion no one is worth that kind of money. The truth of the matter is that your life style will pretty much be the same with 100 mil yr or 10% of it. Check out the compensation packages of the CEOs of most Japanese companies.

On the other side of the argument is the excess of power by labor as also illustrated quite well over 10 pages of posts. The jerks on both sides as usual spoil it for the rest. For all of our sakes, let's pray that reason prevails.

Walt....

[SKYCHENEY]

In a free competitive market, you will see salaries rise as the employers try to steal the rising stars from their competition. This happens not only in the corporate world, but also in sports. You might ask what athelete is worth $50 million? But in reality, he is worth that to the people who hired him or they would not have made the offer. The same goes for CEO's. The board would not hire a guy if they didn't feel he was worth it. Have some of these boards made mistakes? Yes. Some have pinned all of their hopes of higher earnings on a name at the top only to find the the problem was much larger.

So, I agree that some of the CEO's are probably overpaid and so are many other professionals, athletes, coaches, etc. And if these guys don't perform, they get fired. Only the truly outstanding individuals in their fields remain in these positions for long. It has to be tough, though, when you have a great leader running your organization and he keeps getting solicited to jump ship for more money. What do you do? You either let him go, or you give him a raise. That's how this happens.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's easy to criticize these exorbitant numbers, but it's also very hard to avoid when you have competiton.

[Genesis]

Why are they "exhorbitant"?

Remember the brouhaha about XOM's chairman who got something like $400 million over 10 years? He was lambasted as being "rediculously" overpaid.

But was he? He doubled the net value of the company - a net increase of something like $100 billion dollars.

So he got what - less than 1/2 of 1% of the net value increase to shareholders?

You think 1/2 of 1% of what he brought home to everyone else is an unreasonable amount of money? I personally think its chicken scratch! Remember - that XOM is probably in your 401k account, and its more than doubled in value.

Absolute numbers usually look artificially big. You have to look at them in context. Now are some CEOs making big bucks while their firms make nothing (or actually go DOWN in value)? Yes, but they don't do it for very long - those folks tend to hear "you're FIRED!"..... as well they should.

[GaryNW]

The facts show that CEO pay has increased say 20 times more than "workers". I have a few problems with this, as does most of society.

1). Are these guys that much better than the CEO's of 20 yrs ago? No way! The "we are betting the company on this (product or investment)" has always been there. The decisions are actually easier nowdays. So much data available, so many computer programs, so many guns for hire and everyones dog has an MBA! The big decisions are not made solely by the CEO; the board signs-off, so the nightwatchman could easily float the idea.

2). The first thing any union will bring up at contact time is "how can you say there is no money when stupid just got a 100 milion dollar bonus?"

3) "You're fired" coupled with a 200 million dollar severance package makes no sense to us normal mortals. Let's say a guy is hired to fix my roof and in the process he burns down my house. Do I say "that was awesome, here's an extra $50,000?"

Gary

[SKYCHENEY]

Let's say a guy is hired to fix my roof and in the process he burns down my house. Do I say "that was awesome, here's an extra $50,000?"

Gary

No, the $50,000 is to make the guy go away before he burns down your barn too. ;)

[Paul45c]

The really scary part about unions is can anyone tell me what type of organization they are (corporation or what) and under what legal entity the are chartered by and who actually owns them? I have not been able to find out anything on them. I got started trying to figure this out when a friend's employer was being assaulted by the communications workers of america and was trying to figure out who actually controls these guys. It is a big black hole. Can anyone shed some light on this?One way or another, they almost all have strings connected to the AFL-CIO; there are exceptions, but that's the black hole at the heart.

A good resource if you want to know more is the National Right to Work Committee. That's the outfit that AFL-CIO duels with every year, and does everything they can to put a straitjacket on.

[Genesis]

The facts show that CEO pay has increased say 20 times more than "workers". I have a few problems with this, as does most of society.

1). Are these guys that much better than the CEO's of 20 yrs ago? No way! The "we are betting the company on this (product or investment)" has always been there. The decisions are actually easier nowdays. So much data available, so many computer programs, so many guns for hire and everyones dog has an MBA! The big decisions are not made solely by the CEO; the board signs-off, so the nightwatchman could easily float the idea.

2). The first thing any union will bring up at contact time is "how can you say there is no money when stupid just got a 100 milion dollar bonus?"

3) "You're fired" coupled with a 200 million dollar severance package makes no sense to us normal mortals. Let's say a guy is hired to fix my roof and in the process he burns down my house. Do I say "that was awesome, here's an extra $50,000?"

Gary

You say you have a few problems with it, but the fact remains that you likely own - at least in part - those companies.

Got a 401k? You own some of them. IRA? Same. And on and on and on.

The shareholders are the ones who elect directors who make these decisions guys. You don't like the decisions, then organize a group of shareholders and replace the board members that are making the decisions you don't like.

These companies are publically owned. There is no "cabal" involved in executive pay - it is, in fact, decided by people who you voted for.

[spartonboat1]

Compensation Story...don't read unless your nearing retirement age.

Henry Ford in the early days was, as they say, totally vertically integrated. He had huge electrical generating stations, in Detroit near the River Rouge plant, one of the largest, if not the largest mfg. facilities ever in the world.

At any rate, generators wouldn't function well...inadequate output.

GE sent in their resident EE expert named Steinmetz, if I remember correctly. (I'll go double check). He requests a cot, table, chair, paper, a slide rule.

After three days of analysis, he requests a ladder, string, chalk, and tape measure. Up the ladder he goes, measures, makes two marks, says remove this section, reassemble and test it out.

Ford does as requested, works great, happy FOMOCO. :o

Bill comes from GE. Page One (remember this is in the 1920's): 3 days @ 8 hours/day x $20/hour= $480. Page Two: "Knowing where to make the chalk marks", bill= $25,000. :D

My cute...after the sturm and drang...

[Walter P]

Really great posts guys. I especially enjoyed Sky's comment about the barn thing. It's really easy to see either side of this topic as having merit. Oh well as the old saying goes.... Our system is terrible, but all the others are worse. Great mental exercise - helps ward off "old timers disease"

Walt

[(Nobody You Know)]

You say you have a few problems with it, but the fact remains that you likely own - at least in part - those companies.

Got a 401k? You own some of them. IRA? Same. And on and on and on.

The shareholders are the ones who elect directors who make these decisions guys. You don't like the decisions, then organize a group of shareholders and replace the board members that are making the decisions you don't like.

These companies are publically owned. There is no "cabal" involved in executive pay - it is, in fact, decided by people who you voted for.

And in some instances the Directors appoint the Shareholders, who are grateful and "obligated" to same. And all including lowely stockholders demand profitability.

Don't forget to add petroleum to that 401K fund(s). All you readers of this thread who own any mutual funds more than likely have energy stocks in a petro producer - and you had the audacity to complain while fuel prices go up with the profitability of your investments!

Whether we want to admit it or not many of the larger corporations CEOs are nothing short of geniuses.

[eclipsarkanna]

Mike:

I have been sitting on the buyer sidelines waiting for the last 14 months to see a bottom in the used Hatt pricing and they continue to decline so fast I can't even keep up tracking the declines in the few Hatts that I have been following down. My question is: in such a rapidly declining market and with limited funds for my retirement would it be unreasonable to put an offer to a broker on a Hatt (I don't want to be more specific so as to offend any Hatt owner) at 50% of asking - it was originally listed for mid $500s, now asking in the mid-$300s and which has been sitting unsold for 4 months even at the mid-$300s. 14 months ago I am sure the broker would have screamed "pirate" but now it is listed at 50% of its original asking and still sits for months unsold. Maybe 6 months from now an offer at $175,000 cash for a boat that needs a new bottom, engine rebuilds, new electronics, in need of interior upgrading not to mention the hidden usual problems of a 28-year old Yacht..

Any thoughts would be welcome as I don't want to put in an offensive offer but at the same time don't want to be stupid with my lifetime earnings.

[Genesis]

There's no such thing as an "insulting" offer. Besides, do you care if you insult? Once the transaction is over, its over.

You'd be surprised what happens. You might put in that offer, receive a "no", and six months later get a call back from the broker asking if your offer is still good. I know people that have had that happen...... sometimes they're still in the market, sometimes not....

[Boss Lady]

Hey, its' your money. I make offers based upon what something is worth to me. If the owner thinks that his item is more valuable he gets to keep it, if he thinks my offer is attractive then I become the new owner. Like Karl said, do you really care what anyone else thinks? I would tell the broker to pack sand if he made any comments. I have done it and there is a 54 Bertram owner that will probably be pissed off when he finds out that they have finally brought the boat down to where my offer was 6 months ago, and he could have sold it then, but the broker refused to pass on my original offer. The broker just sent me an email to see if I was interested at the new price. I have since found someone who knows the owner and he will be told about this situation. They were asking $550K, I offered $450K less survey items. Not very insulting and the owner didn't even get the chance to make a counter offer. New asking price is $450K, I think I will offer $250K and see if they are desperate yet! LOL

[jim rosenthal]

I have been researching the market in used Porsches (having sold the Ferrari Mondial that has been my unfaithful companion for the past seven years), and it is amazing what the asking prices are. I would give a lot to know what these cars are selling for. The asking prices are all over the place. Like you say, an offer is an offer; it's either high enough or not enough. Generally there's always another one, they're like streetcars, unless you're talking about something really unique. And in my price range in cars, nothing is a one-off. Although I might get to a "one-left", one of these days...

You can ask anything you want. It's when funds start to change hands that the BS stops and you find out what something is really worth. I suppose the bad news is that our boats may be worth less than they were. The good news is that they will be around for a long time for us to enjoy boating on. Just think; if Hatteras yachts are dropping in value, with their reputation, what could be happening to certain other brands whose rep is not nearly as good. Uh oh. (giant sucking sound)

[garyd]

Interesting thoughts on prices falling. This will actuallly help the industry pull more boaters into it. Yes fuel is up, slip rental fees are up, insurance up, but prices down.

So if you can save 150k on the purchase price you will have money left over for the fuel, slip, and insurance. Course we are Americans we max out our initial purchase ALL THE TIME. :eek:

Buy a new/used HAtt and start another project :D garyd

[Passages]

Interesting thoughts on prices falling. This will actuallly help the industry pull more boaters into it. Yes fuel is up, slip rental fees are up, insurance up, but prices down.

This could have the opposite effect as more "marginal" boaters - folks with limited interest or financial resources - enter the market. They can afford the purchase but can't afford the upkeep. Now 2 years goes by and they have to dump - further depressing prices.

Hope I'm wrong on this one...

[hattitude]

I just got a first hand lesson on the depreciation on our vintage Hatt's.

I am not selling, and I owe far less than these numbers, so they are just numbers, but........

I had a survay in 2002 for a refinance. My 1980 46C had a market value of $275,000. and replacement of $800,000.

I just completed a survey for insurance and now the market value was $200,000. and the replacement was 1,500,000.

On the bright side, since I'm keeping the boat, the replacement value will help me justify the cost of a repower...

[MikeP]

Jim,

I sold my 1999 Porsche 911 with 55,000 miles for $29,500 a couple of months ago. I listed it on a Friday in the paper for 30k and a guy called/looked/bought it the next day. I paid 64k for it new in late 98. A friend said I could have sold it for 33k but I wasn't interested in a long-drawn out for-sale period.

[ThirdHatt]

Mike, you got good and fair money for your 996. Recently I was offered a 1999 996 that was truly perfect, one owner, no paintwork, tons of records, etc. The wholesale money was $27,000 and I would have had to give $27,500 to get it bought. I passed only because when I consulted my fellow Porsche experts we all agreed that $30k pretty much killed the car on the retail market, unless it sat in Panorama and/or Excellence for many months waiting for a guy looking for that exact car to pay a few grand more. If I had to spend any money on the car it would have eaten up any chance at some profit. Assuming your 55k mile car was just as nice (surely it was knowing how you keep your boat) I think you got good money back on your Porsche. How many other marques can you buy a car and get nearly 50% of your money back after 8 yrs? GOOD LUCK!

Example: Everyone likes to brag about how well Lexus cars hold their value. I just took a 1998 Lexus LS400 in on trade, one family owned Black/Tan leather, no paint work, garage kept since new, soft supple leather with no scratches or stains with right at 80k miles. The car is near perfect and drives that way. It feels and drives good as new and yet it is only worth about $11,500-$12k. How's that for a $55k car after 9 yrs? 20% return of original investment and that is about as good as it gets in Luxury car terms. They should have bought a Porsche!!! ;)

[Trojan]

Very interesting. Two things. I spent my entire life in the auto industry. I HAD good health insurance paid by the company. I'm retired now on a fixed income. Each year my insurance coverage goes down and the cost to me increases. This past year the premium tripled and the coverage was cut in half. I have health problems a bad heart and so does my wife. I also have 6 kids at home. Next year I don't know if I will even be able to afford to have health insurance. My wife's meds are $800. per month. If it wasn't that the boat was paid for I would have it for sale. I have 4 family members that work for Chrysler. Union or no union they work there butts off every day. There is NO free ride any more. Exion just posted a 400 billion dollar profit last Friday. Don't blame the auto unions for the fat cats. Hillery wanted to start a health care program after month of work she found out we already have one. Medicare. And she wants to be president. 5 countries that we are helping all want to kill us. Why are we there?


If so many boats were lost to the hurricanes why aren't they helping to raise the price of medium size boats? Like it does small air craft.


BILL

[Genesis]

One question to bring 'ya back down to earth Bill - what were Exxon's sales, and what was their profit as a percentage of sales?

[kemosabe421]

"Exion just posted a 400 billion dollar profit last Friday. Don't blame the auto unions for the fat cats."

Re: Exxon's obscene profits.

The federal government makes more on a gallon of gas than Exxon. The federal government invested absolutely nothing to make that money.

Now....who are the fat cats?

[Trojan]

Some things ya just can't argue about. :D


BILL

[garyd]

"This could have the opposite effect as more "marginal" boaters".

Passages I've been intimitly involved in the boating industry. Falling prices for the craft will bring people in. Once they are in they are hooked.

Ever go to the round de rounds on a Saturday night most of those guys can't afford that sport but there they are. Yep there are many people in boating that can't afford it at the time they get in but sometimes it turns them into either productive workers or entrprenuers. Or dead broke :p

C'mon in everybody the waters fine.

Besides my dad was a golfer we are not that close. I'm a boater and take my 10 year old son fishing a lot. We are very close, as it sounds like you are with yours. Boating is one of the best hobbies on the planet. Flying is fun too except you just can't throw anchor and fish at a moments notice.

If you boat for thirty years and own a Hatteras you can pass that on to your son. If you golf for 30 yrears he gets an old set of very used golf clubs, big deal.

Boating with ones family fishing, cruising. etc etc etc is simply the best!

Have fun using your boats :) garyd`

[NAN-PO 41]

The fair weather boaters may dump their boats but us addicts will only bail out as a last resort. The way we use the boat may change some but there is no better sport to do with the whole family. We have been blessed with two grandsons ages 2 & 3 1/2 and they already refer to the 11' Whaler as their boat. ( The Hatt is Nana's boat ) Great fun whether cruising along in the Hatt or putting about an anchorage with the boys in "Their Boat"
Fred

[thoward]

Hillery wanted to start a health care program after month of work she found out we already have one. Medicare. And she wants to be president.

Being in health care, Medicare/Medicaid are not the answer! She worked on the healthcare issue many years ago and I am glad to see it come back up.

[Passages]

A national health care system makes sense from the perspective of global competitiveness. $1500 of every US auto sold goes to fund employee & retiree health care. That's a burden Toyota does not have to deal with.

[Genesis]

A national health care system makes sense from the perspective of global competitiveness. $1500 of every US auto sold goes to fund employee & retiree health care. That's a burden Toyota does not have to deal with.
No it doesn't.

$1500 of every auto goes to that now. Nationalize it and it will be $2500 due to government inefficiency, and hurt not only the auto industry but also every other industry as well.

[Passages]

Nationalize it and it will be $2500 due to government inefficiency, .
I don't disagree, however the financial burden would shift from companies to taxpayers. No doubt taxes would increase which would depress American purchasing power - but it's a global market. The reduction in US sales would be offset - or enhanced - by an increase in overseas demand.

US automakers are getting beat up pretty bad. We need to change something in the formula to revive the industry.

[Genesis]

I don't disagree, however the financial burden would shift from companies to taxpayers. No doubt taxes would increase which would depress American purchasing power - but it's a global market. The reduction in US sales would be offset - or enhanced - by an increase in overseas demand.

US automakers are getting beat up pretty bad. We need to change something in the formula to revive the industry.
There is no such thing as a "burden on companies". All taxes and all costs are paid by people - not corporations.

You cannot tax a company. As soon as you attempt it the tax shows up in the price of their products and services, or it comes out of their employee's pockets.

If you widen the base upon which the levy is placed you damage industries that currently are not being damaged in this fashion. That hurts more than it helps because of the inherent inefficiency of government.

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

The only fix for the auto industry health care issue is for the companies to reneg on the promise they made.

The only way out of the health-care box generally (for our entire nation) is for us to have an honest discussion and debate among our citizenry about the issue and reach conclusions about what our responsibility to our citizens is - and where it ends.

As an example - if you're 100lbs overweight, does society owe you medical care for those diseases/conditions brought about as a reasonably-forseeable consequence of your decision to stuff your pie hole?

If you smoke and get lung cancer, does society owe you the cost of your chemo?

More to the point - do we owe you the last year of your life? See, 90% of all the medical spending you will do happens in the last year of your life. So we could entirely solve our health-care crisis problem by simply refusing to pay for that - it would mean that only the wealthy (and those wealthy who CHOOSE to spend their wealth for that extra year) would get it. Is that acceptable?

We can continue to develop technology that extends life, but we cannot provide it to everyone as a societal mandate. That is simply and flatly impossible.

This is a debate that has not yet occurred in this country, and yet it must occur in order to make sound public policy decisions.

GM's problems are a foreshadow of what is to come for the rest of us if we DON'T deal with this.

[Passages]

Now we're getting into medical ethics.

As a free and compassionate country based on Christian values, I don't think we will ever have the grit needed to make the decision on who does NOT have the "right" to life prolonging medical treatment. Not until the country is bursting at the seams and flat broke.

This thread has lost it's way and should be closed.

[(Nobody You Know)]

I don't disagree, however the financial burden would shift from companies to taxpayers. No doubt taxes would increase which would depress American purchasing power - but it's a global market. The reduction in US sales would be offset - or enhanced - by an increase in overseas demand.

US automakers are getting beat up pretty bad. We need to change something in the formula to revive the industry.

It would help BTW if Ford did not have to pay full annulal salaries to union memers after a plant closing.

You increase taxes and you will make American goods more costly in a global market (and hence, slow down production) And beleive it or not, reductions in taxes have resulted in increases in the national coffers.

Would you like to see health care more affordable like it was 20 years ago? George Bush, Sr. said it best in 1992: "If you want more affordable health care you have to take the lawyers out of the health care industry". Gingrich attempted "Tort Reform". The rest is history :(

This is why your health provider charges a lot more now to cover rising liability insurances, and performs batteries of tests (many of which are not needed because his instincts usually can tell him what is wrong a patient) because he MUST cover his butt in court!

Let me say this about national health care. I am have family in Canada, England, and the good Ole' USA (where a close family member is an M.D). "We" witness daily the near torment that our foreign loved ones go through having to live with a system that is less responsible than, say, a boat yard. YOU REALLY DON'T WANT NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.

Regarding the medicare treatment in this country all of your hospitals that cater to indigent (uninsured) expectant mothers run a "baby mill" beyond your wildest immaginations. We see unmarried teenage mothers by the tenfold. We see all kind of complications due to health "neglect" together with premature delivery. IMHO around 80% of the premies are due to prenatal neglect and self abuse. There are NICU nurses and Dr's that are on a first name bases with some moms who drop a baby each year. A premie can easily cost a county hospital $100,000 in just a few weeks. The point I wish to make is that this is just (one) tip of a big ugly iceburg of which YOU AND I are paying for! And you government ain't doing much to correct it either.

Have a nice boating day :)

[Genesis]

Now we're getting into medical ethics. Nope.

This has nothing to do with ethics. It has to do with whether or not you have a right to steal funds from someone else in order to pay for treatment you cannot afford, and if that right exists in some form, where it begins and ends.

Believing that this is about medical ethics will be how we end up in the quagmire in general. It is how GM and Ford wound up there.

As a free and compassionate country based on Christian values, I don't think we will ever have the grit needed to make the decision on who does NOT have the "right" to life prolonging medical treatment. Not until the country is bursting at the seams and flat broke.

There is no right to medical treatment. There is also no right to food or shelter. None of these can be found in our Constitution, and with good reason (I suspect you'd be the first to argue against said right if a homeless person were to break down your door and help himself to some food and shelter!)

What does exist in our Constitution is your right to attempt to earn the wealth necessary to pay for all three of the above. However, that right does not extend to a guarantee of your success.

Compassion does not reach to the level of theft. By definition compassion must be expressed as a voluntary forfeiture of wealth. As soon as the voluntary component disappears compassion is no longer part of the equation.

The founders were well aware (and wrote extensively about) the fact that as soon as the people find a way to vote themselves the ability to fund their life while sending the bill to society as general, representative government is doomed. The lack of these alleged rights in the Constitution was not an oversight - it was a deliberate attempt to prevent that problem from arising. Up until the 17th Amendment we did a reasonably good job of guarding those foundational principles. We've done a FAR less acceptable job over the last 50 years.

The 900lb Gorilla that nobody wants to talk about is found in Medicare and Medicaid. That Gorilla is the national, "all industries" version of what happened to Ford and General Motors in terms of international competitiveness.

Right now the Gorilla is standing in our living room and has been for the last couple of decades.

In the years to come he is going to start smashing things, unless we find a way to chop him down to size before he gets rather, uh, "animated".....

BTW, this problem cannot be solved with tax increases, regardless of how high you are willing to raise them. Within 30 years these entitlement programs will consume the entire federal budget. Bernacke (and Greenspan before him) along with the CBO have been saying this for quite some time.

Problem is, nobody wants to have an honest discussion in public with the American People about the issue, because as soon as you raise it you evoke exactly the sort of visceral reaction that was just displayed.

Yet without dealing with this we won't have to worry about boating down the road, or, for that matter, any other sort of economic activity that is characteristic of our "first nation" status in the world today.

As for this thread outliving its usefulness, I disagree (although if consensus is that it has, then so be it.) Understanding and debating the underlying economic issues facing us as a nation is inherently part of owning an expensive, non-essential toy that consumes resources at a voracious rate. Certainly, the ownership of any large boat, even a high quality one such as a Hatteras, falls into that category.

[thoward]

You are right, it has nothing to do with ethics. It has to do with the security of the nation. Saddly there are some bugs out there that people can spread causing a major health issue for the entire US including the workforce. The other issue is we end up paying much more for injuries that could have been treated before they turn disabling. You really need to look where the money goes because it is not the health care workers. The attorneys are not a big issue either, they file fewer malpractice suits now than 10 years ago. We as a nation consume 90% of the drugs made yet has only 4.6% of the world population. The U. S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the 2000 report found. There are problems and it is internal and we need to spend the money to fix it!

[SKYCHENEY]

This forum has solved so many problems and is full of so much information from some of the brightest minds of all time. I mean think of it, we were all smart enough to buy a Hatteras. So, I would not be surprised if this forum actually solves not only the health care crisis, and the energy crisis, but also all of the other world ills. Imagine, peace on earth -- a Hatteras utopia.

But seriously, I don't believe this has turned too far off topic. The state of our economy does have a big influence on our ability to continue to own and maintain our boats. If we want to continue this lifestyle, some minds are going to have to be changed. The problem is, too many of the voting public actually believe that the main purpose of government is to provide. Next thing you know they'll all feel that owning a Hatteras is another right. Where will it end.

I don't know the answers and I know that my voice alone will not change anything. So, my advice is to enjoy our boating lifestyle while it lasts. Get out there with your family and friends and have a great time.

[GaryNW]

I tried to resist...Now my .02,
Talk of "entitlements" is usually code language for "screw the poor, they have too much already". It's primarily a right-wing canard. Fact is, the rich benefit from "entitlements" more than the poor on a per-capita basis. Why do we spend a fortune on providing secret service protection to ex presidents and their families? Aside from the fact that they have the means to hire security, of what value are they to taxpayers? Let them be mugged and shot like everyone else. Now, Hatt owners are normally thought of as upper middle class, but you know the microsoft millionaires don't want your trash boats anchored within their views on Lake Washington. So they bought some laws. They are "entitled" to keeping the little people out of sight. Examples are endless-

I'm not at SS or Medicare yet, but these programs are certainly important to my family. My dad left my mom set up with a small CG pension and a paid for condo. With this and a sister who is able to live with her, she should be able to stay put till the end (she's 89). There is just enough, and SS and medicare are sure necessary to make it work. Millions of families just like mine.

Gary

[thoward]

The problem with medicare and such is as we speak they are cutting funding and the population using the service is increasing. When the glut of the Baby boomers hit 65 there will not be enough Gen X to support them under the current system. There will need to be a major shift in thinking during the next 10 years......

[Genesis]

They are not cutting funding. That's another canard that is simply false, and trotted out whenever certain politicians don't like the rate of GROWTH slowing down.

However, you are right on the other side. And whether you like it or not, or expect it or not, there will not be Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid as we know it within the next 20 to 30 years. It is a fiscal impossibility.

I am 20ish years away from "qualifying" for SS, and I have zero expectation that I will ever see any of that which I am "entitled" to.

The entire system is a scam and a fraud. We all get a statement every year of our "expected benefits" and yet there have been lawsuits about whether you're entitled to payment for your tax remittances.

One famous case went all the way to the USSC, which ruled FICA is in fact just a tax; you have absolutely no right, under the law, to the first dime of your alleged promised benefits. (Fleming .v. Nestor, 1960)

Those who have failed to plan for their own retirement and medical care are in for an ugly surprise. That would be bad enough for us, but our children and grandchildren are the ones who will REALLY take it in the shorts if we don't stop demanding that which is impossible to provide.

You simply can't make $1 buy $2 worth of services. It cannot be done.

But you can bet that a lot of people will try to make it happen. The results are likely to be quite ugly; if you're younger than 60 or so you probably want to think about planning for when these chickens come home to roost.....

[Maynard Rupp]

They are not cutting funding. That's another canard that is simply false, and trotted out whenever certain politicians don't like the rate of GROWTH slowing down.

However, you are right on the other side. And whether you like it or not, or expect it or not, there will not be Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid as we know it within the next 20 to 30 years. It is a fiscal impossibility.

I am 20ish years away from "qualifying" for SS, and I have zero expectation that I will ever see any of that which I am "entitled" to.

The entire system is a scam and a fraud. We all get a statement every year of our "expected benefits" and yet there have been lawsuits about whether you're entitled to payment for your tax remittances.

One famous case went all the way to the USSC, which ruled FICA is in fact just a tax; you have absolutely no right, under the law, to the first dime of your alleged promised benefits. (Fleming .v. Nestor, 1960)

Those who have failed to plan for their own retirement and medical care are in for an ugly surprise. That would be bad enough for us, but our children and grandchildren are the ones who will REALLY take it in the shorts if we don't stop demanding that which is impossible to provide.

You simply can't make $1 buy $2 worth of services. It cannot be done.

But you can bet that a lot of people will try to make it happen. The results are likely to be quite ugly; if you're younger than 60 or so you probably want to think about planning for when these chickens come home to roost.....
I see that also, Karl...If you don't it is only because your eyes aren't open. Am I ever glad that I am 66. I have been living in what probably were the best times for America. I hope I am wrong, but I see us going down some bad paths.

[(Nobody You Know)]

I see that also, Karl...If you don't it is only because your eyes aren't open. Am I ever glad that I am 66. I have been living in what probably were the best times for America. I hope I am wrong, but I see us going down some bad paths.

I'm afraid you're right Maynard. It's been 70+ years since The Great Depression (not some little 2 year recession like we have every few years). I believe we've seen the best of times. My fear is that in spite of all frugalence, saving and prudence I may wind up flat broke due to a defunt government system that was bank rupted by bad politics.

Karl is right in asserting that no where in the Constitution is the gov. required to provide the citizenry with health care. And the founding fathers did install safe guards to prevent the "system" from getting way out of hand like it is today. He forgot to mention that the word "democracy" is also not mentioned anywhere in the constitution. FYI this is (was) a republic and not a democracy. A republic where elected officials themselves elect (appoint) a President, not the citizenry (the electoral college, remember?)

The point of all is this is the prevention of "mob rule". Which unfortunately has not been very well prevented. Hence, we have evolved into a system where the VOTE RULES and individual politicians readily modify their platform to conform to the voter's wishes (poleing) rather than adhere to any steadfast moral beliefs (which most have none - Dems. and Reps. alike).

Therefore we now have a government that is all too willing to take away some of your wealth (at gun point) to fund someone else's medical benefits and livelyhood (don't believe it? Just refuse to pay your taxes for several years see if they eventually don't take you in with guns).

Probably the most glaring proof of Gov. runaway control over our lives is the voted down referendum of allowing the Social Security option of individual private investment. Certain elements of your government did not think that you are wise enogh to make good investment choices so the refused to allow you the option. Is this a riot?

Forget about the couple of years the county around Galveston, TX passed that referendum in the 80's and those few citizens who had the option beat the ever living sochs of the SS plan in terms of capital growth. One more freedom taken away.

I have a very, very cynical view of our government. We (the "Admiral" and I) constantly seek new and legal avenues to minimize the impact our government has on our finances. I truley believe that the old 20/80 rule survives (regardless of the ruling system, 20% of the population figure out how to garner 80% of the wealth).

Like a lot of readers to this Forum, I believe, we live well within our means. But that in itself is no guaruntee. I'm sorry that I am not able to put one of my "happy" spins on this thread. I guess it's one of things in life where you have to get on philosopy or religon. :(

That reminds me, I need to throw another piece of cardboard under Christine (my '99 Cadillac). Leaks a little oil you know.

[thoward]

Karl, they are cutting payments to physicians...... An 11th-hour intervention by Congress averted a scheduled 5 percent across-the-board reduction in reimbursement for physicians and other health care professionals participating in the Medicare program in 2007. However, many physicians, including psychiatrists, will still see a decline in their 2007 reimbursement because of other government adjustments to the fee schedule. Physicians may face a 10 percent cut in Medicare reimbursements in 2008, the Congressional Budget warns, thanks in part to Congress' December action to defer a scheduled 5 percent cut.

[SKYCHENEY]

In a republic, those governing are supposed to be those who are worthy of governing. It was thought that the average voter was not smart enough to make such decisions and that the representatives would be those with more education and intelect. This was basically the English "Barron" system. But, just look at who represents us now. Most have no schooling in history or economics and many cannot even speak proper English. I'm not sure that better representatives would not be elected if they ran, but most of those who are worthy do not want the job.

[(Nobody You Know)]

I'm not sure that better representatives would not be elected if they ran, but most of those who are worthy do not want the job.

Sadly, I'm not sure that they would stand much of a chance of getting elected if they did run.

[Genesis]

Karl, they are cutting payments to physicians...... An 11th-hour intervention by Congress averted a scheduled 5 percent across-the-board reduction in reimbursement for physicians and other health care professionals participating in the Medicare program in 2007. However, many physicians, including psychiatrists, will still see a decline in their 2007 reimbursement because of other government adjustments to the fee schedule. Physicians may face a 10 percent cut in Medicare reimbursements in 2008, the Congressional Budget warns, thanks in part to Congress' December action to defer a scheduled 5 percent cut.
Its not that simple, and like most things political, the spin is out in force on this one.

The "monetary conversion factor" has in fact been scheduled for changes. However, that is one of eight numbers (for a given practice, locality and procedure) that goes into the Medicare reimbursement for a given procedure. The others adjust for cost of medical practice in a given area and a whole host of other factors.

Second, the Medicare "intervention" you speak of preceded the Bush Budget that was just released.

Medicare's total expenditures in the new fiscal year budget in fact are scheduled to increase - just not as fast as they would have otherwise.

Fact remains, Medicare cannot be sustained at its projected rates of growth. It is not possible. You simply can't take more than 100% of something, whether you'd like to or not. That one portion of Medicare is adjusted down does not mean that Medicare is "cut" in the new budget.

The total dollar amount budgeted is in fact scheduled to go up.

Medicare was and is a Ponzi scheme, just as is Social Security. Neither is solvent and neither can actually deliver on its promises. It is not mathematically possible to do so. The sooner we scrap BOTH the better; yes, it will suck when it happens, but it will suck LESS to do it now than 10 years from now, and if we want 20 years, its gonna be REAL bad.

[Boss Lady]

Unfortuneatly, we do not have any leadership in Washington. Just like the commercial fishermen who will not stop over-fishing until there is nothing left to catch, no one will stop sucking money from the public trough until they bust the system. We are almost at the 49% of the population that recieves some form of government subsidy, so now it is political suicide for any politician who wants to cut off the government checks. When we go over the 50% mark we are just as doomed as the Roman empire. All democracies have failed once the masses figured out that they can elect officials that will grant them largess from the public treasury. We are not far from that now. When it gets real bad, maybe some patriots will step forward to save the "Republic". Damn Democracy, and long live the Republic!

[eclipsarkanna]

Chris:

I took your advice to heart (and several other kind people who answered my open question about submitting an insulting offer). 2 days ago I put an all cash offer totally unconditional (not even a survey condition - I was willing to take the risk) to MY broker who was supposed to submit it. It was 50% under asking (and this on a Hatt that has been listed and unsold for over 16 months as the price continues to tank on the boat). MY own broker wouldn't even submit it to the Vendor's broker!! So I guess we know that a 50% cash unconditional offer off asking is "offensive" in broker circles. I will not use that broker any more and I hope that some day the Vendor finds out because he would have been lucky to get my very substantial offer.

Thanks for everyone's input. I plan on submitting more "offensive" offers only from now on I will do it directly to the Vendor's broker and without engaging my own broker!

[Boss Lady]

I guess he would rather have 100% of nothing instead of 6% of something. I would contact the listing broker directly. I would also ask where the boat is and call there and ask who owns the boat. You can also find out through the USCG documented owner listing who owns the boat and contact the owner if the brokers will not pass on your offer.

[Capt K]

Chris:

I took your advice to heart (and several other kind people who answered my open question about submitting an insulting offer). 2 days ago I put an all cash offer totally unconditional (not even a survey condition - I was willing to take the risk) to MY broker who was supposed to submit it. It was 50% under asking (and this on a Hatt that has been listed and unsold for over 16 months as the price continues to tank on the boat). MY own broker wouldn't even submit it to the Vendor's broker!! So I guess we know that a 50% cash unconditional offer off asking is "offensive" in broker circles. I will not use that broker any more and I hope that some day the Vendor finds out because he would have been lucky to get my very substantial offer.

Thanks for everyone's input. I plan on submitting more "offensive" offers only from now on I will do it directly to the Vendor's broker and without engaging my own broker!



When shopping for a used boat, I usually do not use a broker. I shop the market myself and contact the listing broker. I feel he is usually happy to get the full commission. If I used a broker on my end, there is no advantage, IMHO, due to the fact that he/she probably does not know the boat any better than the listing broker. I agree that dealing directly with the one broker allows you to make any offers you want to. Of course, he may not want to present it to the owners, but you can easily find them if you have already found the boat, most of the time.

K

[Genesis]

In Florida a broker is legally obligated to present all offers.

If he refuses, report him. Florida Yacht Brokers are licensed. This is not true in all states, but it is here!