Engine Issues

[Jackman]

Okay....we took my 32ft 1985 FB out for the first run of the season. Round trip only about 50nm. 2nm from the inlet, on the way back, we heard a manging noise that seems to be a lifting rod on the port engine. We haven't opened her up yet to take a look inside but will next weekend. The engines are original model 350 454 Crusader gas eating machines!

Now the issue...one you've heard a million times over...if I have more damage than can be repaired without pulling the engine I am considering a repower. If I go gas which engines would you guys suggest and if I go diesel which would you suggest. I would like to stay Crusader if I go gas and if diesel I'm considering the Yanmar....probably something from the six cylinder line. My problem is that there are too many model numbers in Yanmar and I'm not sure what the optimum horsepower would be.

[jim rosenthal]

I don't know where you are, but you should consider asking Tony Athens at Seaboard Marine aobut this if you are out West, and maybe even if you aren't. He is very up on these and sells both Yanmar and Cummins, which would be my top choices. The boat would run very well with 350hp per side or so. Witht he cost of gasoline as it is, and not coming down any time soon, I would go with diesels if you like the boat a lot and plan to keep it.

[Genesis]

A diesel conversion will run you upwards of $50,000. Remember, you must replace the genset (if you have one), too, because you cannot mix gas and diesel powered engines in the same engine room - that's against the ABYC and USCG rules, unless EVERYTHING in the engine room is ignition protected (diesels are usually NOT!)

You need to burn a LOT of gas to make that back.

It WILL increase the value of the boat, but not by the amount you invest - not even close.

You can buy TEN new, in-crate gas engines for what it will cost you to repower.

Repowering with diesels will vastly extend your range, improve performance, lower your fuel burn and the fuel is much less expensive. On the contrary side maintenance is far more involved and expensive with diesels (if you farm it out), and the consequences of neglecting it are WAY more expensive.

If you want to repower, don't do it on economics. Do it because you want to own the boat for 10 or more years AND you want the other advantages of diesel power.

[Jackman]

I plan on keeping the boat for quite some time. I don't think, unless I win the lottery or have a rich uncle pass, that I'll be able to step up to what some of you guys have. That's a reality to me and I'm very happy with the boat I have. My problem is somewhat related to what Genesis said...."You can buy TEN new, in-crate gas engines for what it will cost you to repower." I know the good things and the bad things about both. My father and I have done absolutely everything on this boat since we have had it. All cosmetics, mechanicals, new installations....The only time its ever been to the marina is when it was delivered. We do it all. We just happened to get to the point where I'm not entirely sure that the engines will be around much longer and need to think about repowering.

Do I go with a more high HP gas engine with fuel injection or do I stay with the carbs, something I can easily work on while offshore? Do I step up to the plate an put in some diesels?

I need a minimum of 350HP but don't know what the max is that I can fit in the boat. I want it to remain comfortable to work on since I do all the work myself....so I don't want an engine that "just fits" into the engine compartments and leaves no room to move around. I don't have a genset so thats not an issue at this point in time. I can live without it for awhile.

Well...when I bought the boat I got it for 47k. I knocked the guy down pretty good based on what I saw. Boats in similar condition and years are being advertised for about 75 to 80k....with 100hrs on their motors. At the moment the boat is significantly better than when I bought it! The diesel powered boats are going for much more than that. So I figure diesel is a viable option. I will be thinking quite a bit about this over the next couple of weeks. Keep chimin in....its appreciated!

[mikep996]

When you say, "a manging [banging?] noise that seems to be a lifting rod on the port engine," is it a heavy knocking sound that can be felt if you touch the engine while it's running? A metallic tapping sound? A clattering metallic sound?

When you refer to a "lifting rod" are you speaking of the pushrod that actuates the rocker arm in the valve train? If the noise you are referring to IS valve train related (metallic tapping) the solution is quite possibly just replacing the hydraulic lifters which is fairly cheap and not very difficult (if you do it yourself - nothing on a boat is cheap if you have the typical incompetent boat "mechanic" do it.)

One thing to check, if you haven't already is the oil quantity and pressure. Low oil level and/or low pressure will cause Hydraulic lifters to bleed down and become noisy. So the first thing I'd do is change the oil/filter.

If it's a heavy "thumping" noise that can be felt if you place a hand on the engine while it's running, you are likely looking at main bearing problems. This will require the engine to be pulled and a complete overhaul should be done. It is possible to replace mains without overhauling the engine (and maybe without actually removing it from the boat - depending on clearance underneath the engine) but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Jackman]

I did mean "banging noise" ..was a typo. Anyhow....I'd describe the noise as a metallic noise like the one you hear when a high pressure liquid pump makes when it gets airbound from having air trapped in the area of the cylinders, which is why I thougt it may be a push rod because. When you bring up the rpms it then sounds like the 3cylinder kubota diesel that was in my tractor. We are going to take it apart in the next week to check things out. I will be changing the oil and checking for metal. If its a push rod I should be able to tell pretty quickly as soon as the valve covers are off.

The oil level looked fine, by the way, and it was changed when I winterized it.


I will see if the engine is repairable but I am looking at my options meanwhile. I'm loking at the age of the power plants. They are vintage FWC 1985 crusader model 350 454's with 2300 hours on them at the moment. Its probably time for them to see "crusader heaven" if you know what I mean. If I can nurse them for this season I will so I won't loose a season.

Thanks for the advice...I will take it with me to the boat next weekend.

[mike]

The noise the you describe may be a rod bearing. Valve train noise is at half the rpm of the normal engine noise because the cam shaft and lifters are spinning at half the the engine speed by design. If it's so loud that you describe it as a diesel sound you most likely have a bad rod bearing. Main bearing noises are more of a growling sound when put under severe load. In order too validate if it is a bearing failure attach a mechanical oil pressure guage right at the oil port at the back of the engine. If you see an erratic reading such that the needle is radically moving as the engine is at a fast idle, you then can conclude you have a bad rod bearing, especially if the noise increases with rpm. 454's are very sensitive to oil loss to the pump such as you would get in a boat. Mike 53MY "Finally"

[adaily3224]

Mike,
I can't advise you to go with gas or diesel but I will say that 2,300 hrs in salt water is a very long life for your present engines. I also wouldn't attempt to tell you what is wrong, it could be many or a variety of things. At any rate my only advise is if you choose gas go with the latest technology fuel injected engines you can afford to buy. They are safer, more reliable, and more economical. They are tougher to do the "do it yourself" diagnostics but have a port for a professional tech to plug his lap top into to find out what went wrong. You have a great boat there, might as well spend the money to make it safe and sound. There's nothing in it's class to compare. Just my thoughts Tony D

[Genesis]

I don't know about the "go maximum electronic" stuff....

Electronics and salt water don't mix all that well. And being offshore without engines as a result of a "brain box" dying is not my idea of a good time.

With that said, you are stuck with this to some extent with most current engines, whether gas or diesel, and of course gas engines rely on power to run in any event, even if they're old-style "points and condensor" motors.

I really LIKE my old Jimmys. They're loud, burn more fuel, and are nowhere near as "refined" as newer diesels. BUT, having suffered an electrical failure 60 nautical miles offshore, and having gotten home without fanfare or incident when it happened......

This much I know for certain - at best in that scenario with "newfangled electronic engines" I would have been coming in on one, and I would definitely not have enjoyed the "extra time" that required. Worst case, BOTH would have shut down and I would have been screwed.

Ever contemplated calling for a tow 60nm offshore? Assuming you can rig something to get radio power (we could have managed that without too much trouble), that would have resulted in a very interesting bill - towing "insurance" or no (and yes, I have it), they won't necessarily come get you that far out.

I have no problem with electronic ignition, as it rarely fails, and if one does, and the other won't start, you can play "swap components" to get one working motor.

However, fully-electronic engines are another matter, and IMHO require careful consideration of where you're boating, what spares you can carry (and afford) with you, where the critical failures are, and how YOU can diagnose enough out there to get home if something goes wrong.

[NANPO 41]

Genesis is exactly right (IMHO of course ). Electronics are a modern miracle. Unfortunately they don't like dampness (Boats do float on the water) and they are not user friendly to repair. There is a lot to be said for the big, old, heavy Detroits. They all but run on beer and potato chips and almost always can you scavange parts off one side if necessary to make the other run.
That being said it is a difficult choice whether or not to spend the large amount of extra cash new diesels would require. One thing to keep in mind is that the new generation of diesels are as high tech and electronics dependent as the new gas engines are. One other point is that high horsepower, lightweight diesels don,t live as long as the old naturals did.
ALL IN ALL----- TOUGH CHOICE

[Jackman]

I fully agree on the electronics argument. There have been a few times when my boat had issues offshore and I was able to fix it because of being carbed and no electronics to deal with. Well....where does that leave me then? A set of new, not rebuilt, crusaders not less than 454? What choices do I have in diesel with minimal electronics?

[Tyco]

At 32', you really don't NEED diesels.

My vote would be to look into the new Crusader 496 gas engines at 385hp. Heard some good reports on the design and it would be far cheaper that converting. The bolt configuration should be similar so the swap involves minimal pain.

Good Luck.

[Jackman]

If I decided to go with something like the 496 do they offer it without fuel injection? I'm probably set on carbs if I go gas because I can fix the issues that arrise with a carb. Less electronics, less unfixable problems. Would the 496 be able to use the same cooling system "plumbing"? I'm sure I'd have to buy manifolds and risers but what about the diameter of the cooling system? Will the current 4in suffice?

[Jackman]

One more thing....I'm thinking about staying away from high output engines since I think they tend to "live" less than engines that aren't stressed. The 496 is HO isn't it? Is it the same block as the 454 just bored larger? If so, what about the "more metal longer life" rule of thumb when it comes to choosing an engine?

[Genesis]

.... is indeed a good rule of thumb.

If you're happy with the performance of the boat as it stands, I'd replace what you have. Much less pain than screwing around with a conversion.

The pain comes if you're NOT happy with what you have now in terms of performance....

[mikep996]

The 385HP version of the 496 is not an HO engine and should be expected to have a good service life based on HP/CID ratio. My information, which may not be totally up-to-date, is that it is available only with EFI.

I would seriously consider rebuilding your present 454 engines. A GOOD engine rebuilder can produce an engine that is better in every respect than a new "factory" engine. Of course, finding a GOOD rebuilder, as opposed to a jakeleg boat "mechanic" might take a bit of research. But the result will be a more powerful and efficient engine because all the internal specs and clearances will be at optimum instead of the slop of factory plus/minus specs.

Here's a personal example: Brand new 454 CID engine produced 408HP on the dyno; engine was disassembled and rebuilt to optimum clearances - 510HP on same dyno! No aftermarket parts or modifications. The primary "changes" consisted of ensuring correct piston ring gap, bearing clearances, true cylinder bores, a proper valve job on the cylinder heads, and degreeing in the camshaft. Compression in the original engine varied nearly 20 PSI from High to low cylinder which is well within "specs." Rebuilt engine compression variation was within one increment on the compression gauge which is calibrated in 2PSI increments!

Don't be afraid of rebuilt engines; but do be afraid of marina mechanics!

[Jackman]

Mike,

I'm told by the Crusader distributor that LH and RH motors are not made anymore in their motors and that in order to use the new crusader engines that I'd have to buy new trannies as well. Any input on that? I'd have to get rid of my Borg Warner trannies and get Hurth gears.

[jim rosenthal]

If you have fresh-water cooled motors it does make sense to rebiuld them as LH/RH pairs are not offered now. You may have a problem finding RH replacement parts like cams ignition starters etc. An engine built by a good machine shop will always be better than a crate motor, no question. You may find that it is not any cheaper. The rebuilds should be done by a machine shop, not the marina mechanics who do the engines in their shop. Good luck.

[mikep996]

I personally prefer rebuilt engines anyway. But I had forgotten we were talking about LH/RH engines which, as was pointed out, are not even available in current offerings. Therefore, I strongly recommend you have the present engines rebuilt and not have to deal with new tranny issues. The old trannys can be rebuilt as well but if they have been well-cared for, they probably don't really need it. I'd decide this issue based on how they are performing, whether there are any leaks, and whether the fluid is nice and red (as opposed to brown with a burnt odor). However, despite their condition, it would be hard to argue against a recommendation to rebuild the trannys at the same time.

[Tyco]

to rebuilding your 454's. If your current tranny's are good, best to stick with them and not go messing with rotational modifications.

[Genesis]

... a PROPER rebuild always beats a crate motor.

The problem is GETTING a proper rebuild.

You are NOT going to get one from a marina. You need to pull those motors and find someone who will do it correctly, guarantee their work, and has the reputation and backing to stand behind it.

[mikep996]

Agree w/ Genesis

Find a machine shop that specializes in building competiton motors. They will have the expertise and the equipment necessary to ensure everything is at optimum spec when completed. For example...They will ensure that the cylinder bores will actually be ROUND when the engine is assembled! It may come as a surprise but factory motors' bores will be round only until the cylinder heads are installed. Unfortunately, you need those darned heads for the engine to run! But how, you ask, can the piston rings seal if the bores aren't round? Well... they can't! At least, not as well as they should.

When shipping is factored in, I would expect a rebuild of this sort to cost less than a crate (factory-new) motor. But it would probably vary considerably in different parts of the country. If you can do some of the accessory assembly yourself - starter, alternator, manifolds, etc., it would probably be a good bit cheaper. It shouldn't be hard to get a price quote from a machine shop.


Good Luck whatever you decide.

[Jackman]

Okay....I don't know what a rebuild costs but I will look into it. Meanwhile, I got info from a crusader dealer on the following:

New 8.1L MPI 496 Crusader with new hurth gears...the engine is ready to put in..totally assembled with all cooling lines alternators ect and manifolds and risers...the price per motor is 12,712 per engine. He claims a minimum of 20% increase in fuel economy and an increase in HP of about 55HP per side. Comes with a 3yr warrenty ect. The engine is said to mount right in the same configuration as my old 454's.

This is fuel injected as stated. I'm told, along with the fact that there are no longer LH and RH motors that Crusader also does not sell the 454 as carbed anymore, which is why he priced me on a 496. That means both new carbs I have can't be used as well as everything else associated with only the 454. So....it looks like I have two options thanks to all of your help....1) Rebuild the current engines and trannys or 2)bite the bullet and put in some new crusaders and reconfigure the boat to be a non-LH and RH boat. I guess I'll concentrate on trying to "patch up" my problems for the season by seeing if I can replace the top end parts to solve my immediate problem. If that doesn't work my boating season might be in jeopardy...We'll see probably this friday.

Gosh, I'd love to put a set of new Yanmars with tons of power but after talking with you guys and hearing that I really don't need it because of the size of my boat and then realizing that I'll be "sugar daddy" for my admiral for the next four years because she's going to University of Penn for Vet school in August...(she'll be bringing in no dough)..I better play it smart. I'll live vicariously through the other guys at my marina when I hear their diesels fire up and hear about their power and great milage. I guess I should concentrate on what is realistic at this point in time. Maybe when the Admiral gets out of vet school and she has a 200K school bill floating over my head but making enough to cover the payments I'll be able to "sneek in" a set of 60K diesels. There's also the lottery or maybe some really, really, really nice person will drop off a set of new Cummings or Yanmars at my doorstep in University City near Philly......

Thanks Guys! I'll keep you posted on the progress and if I have any issues I'll post or if you have anything to add please feel free to comment. Its definitely appreciated!

[jkp1]

There was a long article on a 31' Bertram which converted from gas to diesel.

For your situation though, I agree with others that the best bet would be to rebuild your current motors.

[Maynard Rupp]

I used to build engines for fuel dragsters and I would recommend you search out an engine shop that works on high performance engines. They tend to do a great job. Don't worry about the rotation as the only difference is the camshaft. send yours to a cam grinder for a regrind and nitriding. We have Crusaders in our '86 Hat 36 Convert. and they are great. We are in fresh water though. The new engines all turn the same way as an automobile. I hear that Warner makes a tranny that can be used continuously in reverse. They just flip the shifters around to make your props turn opposite. The oldr trans. could not be used continuously in reverse. At 2300 hours, you are surely due for an overhaul. The nocking noise could be from a cracked flexplate,( the plate between the engine and transmission). Good luck

[John F]

I'm a lurker here--have a B31, but I really like Hatts. This is a great board.

Figure out what's wrong with your 454s before you go further. They're known for weak oiling at the rockers, and now and then break rockers and then bend/break pushrods. I went through this about 150 hour ago. Compression was good and no oil leaks on the motors. I replaced the rocker and the 2 pushrods it took out, and they're still running great. When the rocker broke, the marine mechs. I talked to had all sorts of really bad scenarios, and pretty much recommended rebuilds. I was told that rocker oiling on 454s was a weak point by the mechs. at a local speed shop. When I told them I had broke a rocker in a 454, the speed shop mech. shrugged his shoulder, said no big deal, and explained the oiling problem. So...I second the speed shop advice.

I've heard mostly negative things about off-the-shelf remans., with the exception of merc. remans (supposedly good).

If you go for new gas motors, 496s are the only choice out there. Folks love 'em. I have a friend with an 2003 31 Tiara with 496s that runs great--but uses only slightly less fuel than my carbed 454s. Don't know about the new 6.0, but I like the torque of the big blocks and last time I asked neither merc. or crusader would release torque curves on the 6.0s or mercs stroker.

If you go diesels, the 240 Yannies will about duplicate your 454 performance, and the 6 cyl. Yannies or 6btas will better it.

Please post what you find out.

Again, thanks to the Hatt. guys--really interesting stuff. And Jim Rosenthal--if you see this, I think we live pretty close. I'm out of Kent Island, just south of the Kentmorr. 1969 Bertram 31 "Anna E."

John F.

[Jackman]

I have to agree with you. This is an awesome site.

I'm hoping its a push rod. I'll find out tonight or tomorrow. I think my plan is as follows....

1- Change the oil and filter and look for metal.

2- Remove valve covers and look at the top end...remove "busted" parts for replacement if I see any.

3- If I find bent ot busted pushed rods I'll probably replace all of them....maybe the rockers as well.

4- Put it back together and hope it works.

If this doesn't solve the problem my season is gone. Then I'll have to pull the boat and pull the engine for a rebuild.

[Jackman]

By the way...is the flexplate another name for the flywheel? I have the tranny out before on that engine and only remember seeing the flywheel between the tranny and engine.

[mikep996]

The "flexplate," frequently referred to in marine applications as the "damper plate," couples the engine and tranny. It has splined center fitting that engages the tranny and it bolts to the engine flywheel. Unlike a flexplate used in automotive engine/tranny connections, the damper plate has a series of coil springs in the plate - they look and operate like the springs in a clutch disc - to absorb shock in the system.

At idle A bad damper plate (broken springs) will frequently cause a noise like a coffee can full or rocks being shaken.

[mikep996]

I should have said, "unlike the flexplate used in automotive engine/AUTOMATIC tranny connections..."

Flexplates are not used in car manual trannys - clutch discs and pressure plates are.

[Jackman]

Gotcha on that one. Once I thought about it I knew exactly what you were talking about.

[Jackman]

Well,

We went through the diagnostic process and found the following:

1- The oil level was good and the oil was reasonably clean.

2- Removed the oil filter and dumped it in a container to examine it. There were no metal chunks or major dirt. I put a magnet in the oil and did get a small amount of very, very fine metal..the type you find in the lower unit of an outboard after normal use. Figured that was okay. It was normal wear.

3-Removed the valve covers and saw nothing out of the usual. There was no crud/sludge buildup like you would see on a "weathered engine".

4- Cranked the engine and saw that all the valves and lifters were functionaing properly.

5- Tried to start the engine but it backfired again so I disconnected the ignition coil wire and cranked it. Saw no oil coming up through where it should be coming after about 30seconds of cranking.

6- Attached a pressure guage where the pressure switch was and cranked. No pressure or fluxuation whatsoever.

Looks like I have either a failed oil pump or the oil pump pick up fell off and into the oil pan. Whatever it is its an oil problem. Talked with a mechanic who does crusader work and he said that if the engine was run for anytime without oil the price to rebuild the engine would be 75% of getting a new one. Looks like I may have to skip out on the rebuilding and either go with the other options. My season isn't looking too good at this point!:(

[Genesis]

... especially if you have to buy TWO new ones!

Were it me, I'd pull 'em and take 'em home, and rebuild them myself in my GARAGE! Then cart them over to a dyno shop, have them checked out under full load for a while, and then reinstall.

But that's me.... I'm funny like that, and my time is cheap and paying someone unknown is dear ;)

[mike]

I agree with gensis, I have rebuilt too many 454's and small blocks to count. It's n big deal, parts are not too expensive, esp. if you don't get caught up in all the romance stuff that all the speed shops and marine shops want to sell you. The is a good HP book called rebuilding the big block that is a good refencence. Keep all the stock gm parts, run stock re-sized rods and stock clearences on the rod bearings and mains, use forged pistons and a good set of full zero gap rings. Regrind your existing valves/heads, use new springs and reuse the stock cam (or as stated in a previous msg,reharden, grind and reuse) and new lifters. Use a stock oil pump and weld/braze the pickup to the cap. DO-NOT use a high-volumn pump, they spray too much oil on the cylinder walls ....you don't need it. Mike MY"Finally"

[67HAT34C]

WHAT YEAR ARE THE CRUSADERS, IF PRE 1990 THEN YOU MAY CONSIDER REBUILD. THESE ARE TRUCK BLOCKS WITH 4BOLT MAINS. VERY TOUGH ENGINS AND YOU CANT GET THEM ANYMORE. OTHERWISE CONSIDER NEW MPI BIG BLOCKS.

I HAVE A PAIR OF MODEL 350'S IN MINE, INSTALLED 1988. VERY STRONG MOTORS, WE NOW CONVERTING TO ELECTRONIC IGNITION AND A FEW OTHER UPGRADES.

IF YOU ARE IN FLORIDA, LET ME KNOW

SHIER@AOL.COM

[adaily3224]

Mike,

You have so many opinions and options here, I thought I would give you one more.

www.algroversmarine.com/ (http://www.algroversmarine.com/)

This yard does quite a few re-powers, I believe he has take outs that are sold for a fair price. I guess it's worth checking out? Personally after 40 years in the automotive business I don't like old technology and shoddy rebuilds. Don't be confused by everyone else's opinion, you need to make up your own mind, if you want diesels get them, it's your boat.
Lots of great ideas here, the only problem as I see it is time.
Good Luck
Tony D