43DC - 6kW Generator enough?

[sgharford]

I'm thinking of replacing my existing 7.5kw OhNo MDJE on my 1976 Hatteras 43 DC with a 6kW unit. I rarely use the generator as I have inverter, but when I do below is typically what is running. Does anyone run a 6 kW generator and get away with running similar load? I can get a really good deal on a Northern Lights 6kW right now, big jump/no bargain if I went up to their next size which is 9kW. Thinking I turn off water heater as precaution when cooking and should be OK.







16000 Btu Condensing Unit & Evap Fan
1400


Pump for AC
300


Water Heater
2000


Fridge
700


Stove (2 burners)
1700


Battery Charger
600






Total =
6700

[Boatsb]

If you only have one AC unit theres hope for the 6 KW.

I have a 7.5 and it supplies just a bit more than the shore power cords ( 3 x 30 amp) and Ihave a 16K and an 8K AC unit plus the rest give or take. ive never run low on power on the Genny but id rather not have an issue.

Look at sale issues if you have a small generator. If your not looking to sell for a long time it could work.

[Mike36c]

You can always shut down the water heater when cooking and don’t forget the microwave. I had the NL 9kw in my 36 and it was virtually impossible to max load. Running 16K and 9K btu A/c’s, ice machine, charger, fridge, freezer, water heater, micro, and two burner cooktop all at the same time with power to spare. The 9kw is also heavier and physically larger. Play around with the watt meters running things or better yet borrow a clamp on amp meter placed on the shore cord.

[Walter P]

I think the engineers at Hatteras were pretty good at calculating the size of the gen set for most of their
boats.....at least as they were equipped when they were built. I had 2 43 DC's and they both had 7.5KW
gen sets on them which handled most loads. If we had the oven and a burner on and the AC, hot water
heater etc, the generator seemed to handle the load better than the 30 Amp dock cord. Strangely after
many years I decided to replace the unit on my 1st 43 (had lots of hrs on it) rather than constantly having
it repaired, I had a new Onan 8 KW unit installed. Although it was a half a KW more powerful (supposedly)
it did not produce as much power for as long a period as the old 7.5. After running under heavy load it
had a tendency to overheat as well. Too large a generator is not a good thing either but I would not consider
a 6 KW for your boat, nor would I want go much more than 7.5KW.

Walt

[sgharford]

Thanks for response everyone. After sleeping on it I'm thinking the extra money spent now for 7.5 to 9kW worth it. Funny, I'm in printing business and when all things equal I have found weight to be a great factor comparing similar equipment by - more weight is better. I noticed the original MDJE is about 500 lbs while 6kW Northern lights 380 lbs while 9kW 540 lbs. The MDJE runs great (when running) with everything on - read somewhere on this forum that the MDJE 7.5kw has enough copper in it to be 10 kW unit, seems that way to me. I do have 2 x 16,000 BTU A/C's, it would be nice to run both without worrying about tripping a breaker. Was told Northern Lights running special this month on 6kW units for $9175 + $950 for sound shield and about another $1200 for removal and installation.

[Bernhard]

Good call on the larger gen set. My best advice is keep it dry. I just replaced the power end because it got wet and threw a bearing. Ugly sound when the rotor hits the stator.

[Freestyle]

The other thing you have to consider is the inverter load. On my 43 with a 7.5 kw when swtching from gen to inverter and back the inverter ate up all of the power until charged. I could always turn the charge feature of the inverter off but then would forget and be stuck with a adrained inverter and a hard working gnereator.

[Pascal]

Reserve power is always good. A 9kw running 5.5kw worth of load will run cooler too.

Most inverters pull quite a hit in charging mode as well, so with the 6kw you d always been playing with the breakers

[krush]

Soft starts on the A/C units and run a smaller genset. Inverter charge rate can be lowered for when power sharing is required.

[Pascal]

Yeah but if you lower the charge rate you spend a lot more time running the genny. Not worth it

[oscarvan]

I have a 7.5 and it supplies just a bit more than the shore power cords ( 3 x 30 amp)

How do you figure that?

3 x 30A at (I assume) 120V = 10,800W


To the OP.... there's a few trade offs. Bigger generator is more $$, more weight, more space, more noise and more fuel.

And yes, more watts.

I run a 6000W Onan so 50A total in my motorhome. Depending on season I juggle 2 AC's (one is a heat pump), Inverter/Charger, electric water heater, residential fridge, microwave, coffee maker, block heater, electric fire place and 134 TV's, computers, phone chargers, X-boxes and what have you.

Yes, I have to "manage the loads" but I have not had the feeling that I needed a bigger generator.

I did install two ammeters to keep an eye on things. (Most Hatties seem to have them) Really helps.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XXBDCY9/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Boatsb]

Fat fingers

2 x 30 amps.

[krush]

Yeah but if you lower the charge rate you spend a lot more time running the genny. Not worth it

One must look at the entire system to properly analyze. Depending on the size of the battery bank, and the chemistry, the batteries may be limited on how many amps they can accept.

I'll put this in perspective: A 2kw portable gas Honda or Harbor Freight inverter generator easily will start and run my 12,000 or 18,500 BTU unit (I'd estimate they are 80-85%, based on the RPM drop when eco-throttle is on). Using this data-point, a 4kW should easily run both.

I would not put any larger than a 6kW in the original posters boat. I'd also consider using a hybrid inverter that can supplement the generator when needed.

[Boatsb]

7.5 kw means I don't have to shut things down to run others. That would be the minimum I'd use. The inverter could be set to take up to 50 amps in and pass through what's needed and charge with the rest available. If I were to be starting from scratch that's the way I'd design it.

[Pascal]

Well you can camp like a bloboater or you can be comfortable. 25 years using generators on boats Have taught me that having to juggle loads is a PITA.

Sure it sounds easy on paper: turn off the water heater while cooking then you run out of hot water because you forgot to turn it back on. Forget to turn off the water maker as you fire up you oven while someone is using a blow dryer and it s another trip to the ER to reset the breaker on the genset while the boat has gone dark

Not worth it if you have a choice. Instal coats are the same anyway...

Hondas belong on small sailboats and cabin cuddles

[oscarvan]

A 2kw portable gas Honda or Harbor Freight inverter generator easily will start and run my 12,000 or 18,500 BTU unit (I'd estimate they are 80-85%, based on the RPM drop when eco-throttle is on)

You must have the latest and greatest in "soft start" technology and a rotary versus piston compressor.

The EU2000 is 2000 PEAK and 1600W continuous. That's 1600/120=13.3A

I have used a 2000EU with a travel trailer and it BARELY pushed a 12,000 BTU latest and greatest AC. It was pulling 11.1A when running. Peak load during start was 15-17A and it JUST got over the hump. If it was cold and the oil was thick it would quit. There is no way in hell it will push an 18,500 BTU unit.

I'm with Pascal. The Honda's are not suitable for extended marine use, especially in a salt environment. Plus.....You paid all that money to have diesels, and now you have to schlepp gas cans. That said..... Having one hidden somewhere for when the you know what hits the air accelerator....

I pretty much run the genny 24/7 when not plugged in in the Moho. I disagree with him that a little load management is a deterrent. Some gauges and switches in logical places and life flows around it just nicely. I would need twice the generator (12,000W) if I wanted to be able to turn everything on at the same time.

[Mike36c]

The issue on my 36 with the 9kw was underloading, especially at night when the a/c’s were cycling. I found significant coking in the elbow when I swapped it out due to this. And although a fan of NL gennys I went with Phasor this year to replace my 12.5kw. Already past 500hrs trouble free and parts/filters etc can be bought at Napa. Phasor makes a compact 8kw which might fit your needs perfectly.

[krush]

You must have the latest and greatest in "soft start" technology and a rotary versus piston compressor.
.....There is no way in hell it will push an 18,500 BTU unit.

I'm with Pascal. The Honda's are not suitable for extended marine use, especially in a salt environment. Plus.....You paid all that money to have diesels, and now you have to schlepp gas cans. That said..... Having one hidden somewhere for when the you know what hits the air accelerator....



My units have soft-starts built in. But I can assure you the 18.5 runs nicely on the honda 2000. The purpose of my comment was not to say use a honda, it was to put the typical 40foot boat electrical load in context.


The issue on my 36 with the 9kw was underloading, especially at night when the a/c’s were cycling. I found significant coking in the elbow when I swapped it out due to this.

Few people think like you! I agree. and most generators are likely underloaded, not overloaded. Oversizing a generator for the 5% of the time when "all the stuff is on" is kind of silly...especially with new hyrbrid inverter tech (assuming an inverter is going to be installed).

My boat has a massive 12kw genset. My RV has an oversized 8kw genset. Both are 3cyl Isuzu engines. I doubt I'll ever load either at 50%.

The water heaters both have heat exchangers to allow engines to heat the water...plumb it to the genset and you'll rarely need the electric element on. I hate the noise of genset running if not needed. In the RV, the only time I need to run the genset is when running the A/C units. The rest of the time it's 12v loads or inverters (and charge the battery every few days). My boat doesn't have an inverter, yet.

MicroAirs EasyStart makes A/C compressor start up surge a non-issue. No need to oversize anymore. But everybody has different needs and desires.

[oscarvan]

The issue on my 36 with the 9kw was underloading, especially at night when the a/c’s were cycling. I found significant coking in the elbow when I swapped it out due to this. And although a fan of NL gennys I went with Phasor this year to replace my 12.5kw. Already past 500hrs trouble free and parts/filters etc can be bought at Napa. Phasor makes a compact 8kw which might fit your needs perfectly.

That's a VERY good point. Under loading a diesel for most of it's life is not the best thing. In fact, I make it a point to load mine up, if not already happening, on a regular basis.

[34Hatt]

I have that loading problem also I have a 8K but the panel is 2 30 amp sides 7200 total, so you can never load it 100%. I think Scotts boat is also (2) 30 amp plugs which if it is a 9K is a total waste how is the panel setup?

[Pascal]

A generator doesn't have to be run fully loaded. Half load is enough to keep it in good shape.

[sgharford]

I've got 2 x 30 amp connections as well - one for the 2 x 16,000 BTU A/C's and the other for main A/C breaker panel (hot water heater, stove, fridge, lights, etc). Each has it's own rotary switch to go from shore power to generator. So help me, I'm going to try the original MDJE one more season. If it craps out again and I can't take it no more I will go 8 to 9 KW as only time I do run it is to blast A/C and cook when anchoring. I wouldn't feel comfortable running generator overnight, open ports and windows have always been enough for me when anchoring overnight. The 2 KW inverter backed up by 160 amp alternator has always had plenty of juice to charge batteries, run fridge and TV for kids while underway, including running the microwave for a few minutes at a time. It also powers them overnight without issue hooked up to 2 Rolls Surrette 8D Batteries (10 years old this season and still testing good!). Seems pretty easy to do without AC when large windows on a 43DC open and induced breeze traveling at 17 knots. But then again my attitude is let them eat cake as I'm always driving the boat from above.

[Freestyle]

Proper generator load is easily solved by loading 3 or more women with hair dryers and curling irons and
then announcing we will be going ashore for dinner in 3-5 hours. That works for about an hour when the boat goes dark.

Never to fear because you have a separate 9kw it is just that some women will have to wait around in bath robes until theirs
enough power. That lasts about another hour until everything goes dark but the satellite dish,
ice maker, and adult beverge refrigerator. Those and the toilet are the ESSENTIAL systems of
boating and require inverter redundancy. You then charge the invertor with the 23KW and once
everyone is too drunk or interested in getting dressed you announce all power is available and who wants to help with the Crane.

This strategy pays for the redundant equipment and systems in restaurant food and drink bills alone.

Although it is did cost me half off all of my money and stuff once.

Freestyle
1986 62 CPMY (54 MY with conversion)
Tampa

[jim rosenthal]

You could also set up a coolant loop from the genset to the water heater. Not hard to do, and you will get as much free hot water as you can use.

[34Hatt]

I think a few of you missed my point its not to load genny down for its health it was what the panel can handle which is the same as my setup 7200 watts.
So the 7.5 kw was perfect now if he gets a 9 K thats 1800 watts over anything he can pull through the panel. Or buy a 6K and be short 1200 watts but when Scott added everything he would run it came out to 6700 watts so he would only be 700 watts short of running everything full blast!
Sounds to me he is like myself and when on the hook up here we don't really need a.c I only run it for a load then shut it all off.
So do you spend more money for something you may need 2-4% of the time if we were in Fl I would say a 9K but up here I feel we don't need it and I would replace mine with a 6K.

[oscarvan]

Proper generator load is easily solved by loading 3 or more women with hair dryers and curling irons and
then announcing we will be going ashore for dinner in 3-5 hours. That works for about an hour when the boat goes dark.

Never to fear because you have a separate 9kw it is just that some women will have to wait around in bath robes until theirs
enough power. That lasts about another hour until everything goes dark but the satellite dish,
ice maker, and adult beverge refrigerator. Those and the toilet are the ESSENTIAL systems of
boating and require inverter redundancy. You then charge the invertor with the 23KW and once
everyone is too drunk or interested in getting dressed you announce all power is available and who wants to help with the Crane.

This strategy pays for the redundant equipment and systems in restaurant food and drink bills alone.

Although it is did cost me half off all of my money and stuff once.

Freestyle
1986 62 CPMY (54 MY with conversion)
Tampa

Post of the day. You sir, owe me a keyboard. (I spit coffee all over it).

[gbharrington]

I've got 2 x 30 amp connections as well - one for the 2 x 16,000 BTU A/C's and the other for main A/C breaker panel (hot water heater, stove, fridge, lights, etc). Each has it's own rotary switch to go from shore power to generator. So help me, I'm going to try the original MDJE one more season. If it craps out again and I can't take it no more I will go 8 to 9 KW as only time I do run it is to blast A/C and cook when anchoring. I wouldn't feel comfortable running generator overnight, open ports and windows have always been enough for me when anchoring overnight. The 2 KW inverter backed up by 160 amp alternator has always had plenty of juice to charge batteries, run fridge and TV for kids while underway, including running the microwave for a few minutes at a time. It also powers them overnight without issue hooked up to 2 Rolls Surrette 8D Batteries (10 years old this season and still testing good!). Seems pretty easy to do without AC when large windows on a 43DC open and induced breeze traveling at 17 knots. But then again my attitude is let them eat cake as I'm always driving the boat from above.
I used to cringe at the thought of starting the gen, largely because of the noise and vibration. So a few years ago I stripped all of the useless fiberglass insulation out of the sound shield and replaced it with 1" Soundown. That made a considerable difference in the noise, but obviously did nothing for the vibration, a source of noise in it's own right. So last spring I hauled the gen, replaced hoses, fix oil leaks and added a remote start switch in the galley, accompanied by oil pressure and coolant temp gauges. But the big difference was replacing the 40 year old rubber mounts (I bought all that Cummins SE had; 12 I think, so I have some if needed) AND added a second level of isolation by placing 4 low profile vibration isolators between the green Onan generator mounting platform and the ER deck. UNBELIVABLE!! It is as if I have a new gen. Old Shakey is MIA! Sometimes I start it just to not feel it. It brings a smile to my face. Other MDJE owners I have demonstrated it to are incredulous. When it's running I can place my hand on the sound shield or the mounting platform and feel modest but insignificant vibration. But on the ER deck below the gen; NOTHING!
As far as choosing the correct vibration isolator, I called McMaster-Carr and they gave me the name of the company that manufactures the low profile ones that they sell. I called the company, got technical assistance based on the parameters; mostly weight and RPM, and about $40 later I am a happy MDJE owner. If anybody wants the part numbers I'll be happy to hook you up.

[whoover]

Hello Greg, I would be interested in those part numbers of the mounts you used. I have mine out of the boat right now for some repairs and this would be the perfect time to do what you did.

Thanks
Walt Hoover

[gbharrington]

https://www.mcmaster.com/#64875K241 You will need 4

I also have 4 of the Onan 0402-0284 mounts if you cant find them through your local Cummins dealer.

[whoover]

Hi Greg, Cummins does have the mounts but they must be made out of gold. The engine side mounts were about 30.00 apiece but the generator side mounts were over 200.00 each. I hope you got a better deal. I managed to get them at Onanparts .com for about 25.00 each, all four cormers.

Thanks for the part numbers
Walt Hoover

[whoover]

Greg, did you use the same mounting holes with longer bolts or is it separate from the generator mounts.

Thanks
Walt Hoover

[gbharrington]

I used slightly different locations for the isolators. I never considered using the same bolts as they are a different diameter.

[whoover]

Thanks for the idea.

Walt Hoover

[sgharford]

Since I have sound shield off due to replacing exhaust hose as part of winter project, I'm gonna replace my isolators too, but will not add the second layer of isolation. The top of sound shield already hits aftermarket Sendure heat exchanger, definitely not another 1.12" to spare.

[whoover]

I am thinking I will install a lip around the bottom of the original green onan plywood to hold the sound box up. This should fix and clearance issues, I hope.

Walt Hoover

[gbharrington]

The sound box is attached to the OEM platform. When you raise the platform you also raise the box, so no interference.

[sgharford]

Oh, I get it - thanks for asking pointing out again. Curious, where did you find oil leaks? I have themtoo and makes sense to address while accessable. Thank you for sharing all this by the way!

[whoover]

I had two leaks. One was where the governor shaft came out of the housing and the other where the crankshaft snout came out. They were easy to change and available from my local supply house. You will have to remove the fly wheel to get the housing off. It was easy to do off the boat in my workshop, it would be a real tough job on the boat.

Walt Hoover

[gbharrington]

The primary leak on mine seemed to be a dried out seal on the drain hose valve that was attached to the oil pan drain hole. I also suspected the hose for the oil pressure gauge. I just replaced all the hoses.

[spartonboat1]

The other thing you have to consider is the inverter load. On my 43 with a 7.5 kw when swtching from gen to inverter and back the inverter ate up all of the power until charged. I could always turn the charge feature of the inverter off but then would forget and be stuck with a adrained inverter and a hard working gnereator.

Interesting remark are "...inverter ate up...all power...". On a call with a Heart (Xantrex now?) engineer, he pointed out to not oversize an inverter, because they will place an over strong load on the gennyh, due to the nature of the electrical power they pull. In my case, he said 2k max size inverter for my 7.5k genny.

[Boatsb]

That's bs

I install victron systems that will take a 30 or 50 amp feed and use it accordingly. It will charge with whatever power is available after serving the rest of the vessel with proper programming and will not draw more than I set for its maximum input. It can also be changed easily on the control panel if a feed has less than the set amps for an input.

I have a pile of old zantrex inverters in my garage awaiting recycling for a reason.

Pm me if you want to buy a victron inverter.

[oscarvan]

Interesting remark are "...inverter ate up...all power...". On a call with a Heart (Xantrex now?) engineer, he pointed out to not oversize an inverter, because they will place an over strong load on the gennyh, due to the nature of the electrical power they pull. In my case, he said 2k max size inverter for my 7.5k genny.

Why would you put an inverter on a genny? I mean.....what would it do?

Inverters make 120V out of 12V
Gennys make 120V/240V out of diesel.....

Now, if your'e talking an inverter/charger then the charging part will use the 120V the Genny made to recharge the batteries. The charger side of the inverter can be rated at a variety of AMPERAGES..... the 2K which I assume is 2000 Watts has nothing to do with that.

Unless you're talking about a Genny that makes 12V out of diesel and then the inverter makes 120V out of that..... In which case a 7500 Watt Genny should more than easily push a 2000W inverter. In that case I'm not sure what that Xantrex tech was telling you. The "nature" of the electrical power? What the heck is that? Are you talking Modfied Sine versus True Sine? Not sure that would "eat up" thousands of watts, in fact I know it wouldn't.

[sgharford]

I have a Xantrex 2000W inverter I installed myself about 8 years ago. I remember googling the 12V wire size they recommended in installation manual coming from battery - size was off the charts and turned out to be locomotive sized wire. After talking with Xantrex Engineer, he told me 0000 wire should be fine, and so that is what I used as largest size I could get tinned. Had to purchase the big bolt cutter like wire crimper for that job and genuinedealz.com became by best friend for supplies. According to Engineer, amperage is ridiculously high at inverter startup due to inductance and why wire had to be sized so large. I only bring this up because it seems somewhat relevant, maybe when you power the inverter with 120 volt instead of 12 volt they are still taking into consideration this large inductance at startup of inverter (larger the inverter, larger the inductance)?

[BOATER BOB]

I have a 2500 watt inverter and a like load works for me on NL6K don't have a electric stove.You might want to change out your HWH element to 750 or 1000 watt element as that would make a big difference in your demand.
Bob

[krush]

Why would you put an inverter on a genny? I mean.....what would it do?


Nearly every commercially available "inverter" we speak about, is technically called an "inverter/charger". Very rare are instances that an inverter only would be used on a boat. But, instances would be something like batteries charged by hippy (I mean solar) power on a house..

[Scarlett]

The wire size from the batteries to the inverter is dependent on the length of the run, the closer the inverter is to the batteries the smaller the wire can be. There are charts available that will tell you what size you need based on run length. 0000 on a 2000 watt inverter is way overkill unless your run is very long. Best way to get the best performance out of an inverter is to place it as close as possible to the batteries being used. John

[jim rosenthal]

I think inverters and generator sets are used to meet different kinds of demands. An inverter will do things like run your fridge while you are running the boat. It will run a TV set or stereo when you are at anchor. It will not run heavy loads like the water heater or air conditioning. An inverter is on my list of things to put in this coming year (actually it's been on that list for a while, but other items worked their way to the top, jumping over the inverter) I would like it if the fridge were cold when I got where I was going when I run the boat. And I would like anchoring out and not having to run the genset to watch TV or plug in my guitar amp. For larger loads, I have a generator.

[sgharford]

The wire size from the batteries to the inverter is dependent on the length of the run, the closer the inverter is to the batteries the smaller the wire can be. There are charts available that will tell you what size you need based on run length. 0000 on a 2000 watt inverter is way overkill unless your run is very long. Best way to get the best performance out of an inverter is to place it as close as possible to the batteries being used. John

Your only partially right according to Xantrex, for anything over 6 feet you need 350 MCM cable!
(below snippet from original Xantrex Prosine 2000 Watt User's Manual).
23961

[Scarlett]

Thanks for that, had not seen that. What they are suggesting is something like 6/0 wire good luck finding that at the marine store. John

[sgharford]

Honestly, I think the Xantrex Engineers are out to lunch on this one. Perhaps asking for the impossible so they can reneg on warranty claims? I doubt really that nefarious, I'm sure somewhere in their theoretical max amperage calculation 300 amp at 12 volts (3600 watts of power) is correct for this 2000 watt inverter, even if only for a fraction of a second. I've been lucky enough to have no problems with my 2000 Watt unit, and I bought it as refurb when I installed 8 years ago. Can't say it gets used all that much, but it still works.

[krush]

Xantex suck anyway, don't buy one.

[Boatsb]

I love people that have xantrex inverters.

It's just a matter of time.

These are heading to the recycler.

[Scarlett]

I agree with Scott. When I had my electrical business in Puerto Vallarta, I had a pile of Hart/Xantrex inverters just like his. The heat down there was really hard on them. At the time I was a big Outback believer and pretty much told people to spend the extra money and put in an Outback as a replacement. Since that time a lot of company’s have come out with very good inverters. John

[Boatsb]

Thats since the hurricane.

Theyre crap.

Ive also found some guys selling cheap chargers from the battery distributors and they have a 20% warranty repair rate.


VICTRON. it also has the best features for supplemental power and input windows.

My Favorite as even if there is an issue they take care of it.

Victron owners speak up and spread the word. I know I've sold a few to the members. Has anyone had problems with theirs.

[krush]

Heart Interface was good stuff, but then Xantrax bought them and junk junk.

[34Hatt]

Heart Interface was good stuff, but then Xantrax bought them and junk junk.


Yes the old Heart should not be added in with Xantrax When someone has their inverter longer than 17 years then say something. Mine actually says West Marine on it but it is a Heart and will be 18 years old next summer. It was a close out sale on them we bought 4 and all 4 still chugging away 1500 watts and 70 amp output on charge.

And Jim they can run a hot water heater been there done it a few times but only while boat was up and running to replace the d.c that was before I had a genny.

[Scarlett]

I agree with the Heart comment, especially the old black ones, they were great, but I did see problems with the white ones in high heat areas. If you have a white Heart make sure you give it plenty of ventilation and it will do fine for years. John

[Boatsb]

I had one in the picture. It was holding up the yellow ones.

The old old ones are just not serviceable anymore. The old ones suck. The current ones suck to the 10th power.

[Boatsb]

I had one in the picture. It was holding up the yellow ones.

The old old ones are just not serviceable anymore. The old ones suck. The current ones suck to the 10th power.

[lake of the woods]

Scott,

Where are Victron made?

Mark
Lake of the Woods
1989 40 DC

[Boatsb]

Model dependant.
They were made in europe. Some are Taiwan now i believe but their built to a spec. They dont sell others designs.