value of old Hatteras

[jim rosenthal]

About two years ago, after a repower, a comprehensive blister job, and an exterior refit in which most of the chrome pieces were done over and virtually all of the boat was painted, I started wondering if my boat was underinsured. My insurance was with BoatUS. I called them after doing a little market research and found out that they felt my boat was insured appropriately at 89,000 total value. I felt that it was unlikely that I would be able to replace a restored repowered 36 convertible for that kind of money, and that other similar boats were changing hands in the 110,000-150,000 range. They were not receptive to any ideas about increasing the hull value.
This year, feeling even more bothered about the whole thing after some electrical system upgrades and finishing the interior, I told BoatUS I would leave them and get another insurer who was more flexible and realistic about the value of a restored vessel in today's market. At that point, they offered to survey my boat at their own expense to establish condition and value. This was an in-the-water survey, and was done by Marine Survey & Design, which is a well-established group here in the Annapolis area. (the fact that their initials are MSD has nothing to do with their quality and reputation I assure you all)
Well, after the dust settled, the surveyor was very positive about the boat- and essentially wanted to know what I thought the boat is worth. We decided on 120,000, which, after the survey was sent to BoatUS, is what they increased the hull valuation to. The premium is higher, but the peace of mind is worth it. I was offered a copy of the survey at a discounted price, and took it.
What is good about this experience is that BoatUS was willing to get an outside opinion as to what Blue Note is worth, and then trust it. I appreciate that, but I think it should not have taken a year and ten phone calls andworking my way up to the VP of the marine insurance division. I think we both learned something- me, that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, which I have had taught to me before, and them that occasionally the customer is right and before you dismiss a client request to increase the insurance valuation as just another idiot in love with his boat, it may be worth it to look at the boat. When all else fails, in other words, view the merchandise.
I would say things are better. Unfortunately, if the price of new boats keeps climbing and the value of vintage high-quality glass boats keeps going up as well, in the future we will have to go through the same thing again.
I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experience with similar issues...:eek

[Banshee36]

Jim,
I had my rig valued at 120K and was insured by Royal Sun Alliance. As I use my boat as a charter Boat I pay more premium. Their coverage was horrible ,So then I went to Charter Lakes. Had the hull value again at 120k, better all around coverage, however this year another 25% premium increase so I decided to lower the hull value to 100K and keep my liability at 1,000,000.00. The premiums stayed the same. I think if I was not chartering I would be with boats US, however They would not write insurance on my sweet 16 donzi, said it went to fast, had to go to State Farm.
The Buc book has really Low values, helpful in a nasty Divorce, but not insurance.
Just my 25 cents worth.
JW

[spartonboat1]

I believe that the Boat/US policies are underwritten by Buckeye Insurance who is based in Columbus, OH and I believe this is called out on the policies. At least I know they have major office there on Broad St. , because I build out a major data center there (for a different firm) in the mid 90's and they had all of at least the first floor of the building.

My experience is that you need to continue to ping on them (Boat/US-Buckeye), no great stress, and they will keep talking to you. Remember you are working with someone who is sitting a cubicle and you must convince them of your need and/or situation.

Also, since 911, insurance companies have discovered that much of their slim insurance profits were papered over by their strong investments in the stock market, so now they must be more realistic in their underwriting, post 911 and the reduced stock market.

My opinion is that if they took a serious look at old Hatt's, that with a good survey, they would find them an excellent risk- emphasis a good survey.

I have had my boat surveyed 4 times since 1997, including the initial pre-purchase survey; each time to validate work and/or increase the insurance value. One of the 4 times by a crackerjack ABYC certified technician, who found many items missed by other surveyors. However, he did not write a formal survey.

They (surveyor's) don't have the rose colored lenses that owners are subject to and their comments may sting, but are of value.

Also, try Frank Hagarty's firm in my old town, Traverse City, MI. (a fabulous crusing area on the Great Lakes). Hagarty Insurance that is quite active in the vintage car and boat market...again, need a good survey.

[aah924]

Do you have a contact number for Frank Hagarty's firm in my old town, Traverse City, MI? I have a '72 and am paying $2900 a year, without charter insurance, and have a good survey. The best that I found was $2500 with Boat US, but not worth switching, from a local guy for $400. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Allen

[PascalG]

actually, my boat US policies have always shown CNA as the insurer...

I think it makes sense that an insurer is extra careful about a request to increase insured value. if they're willing to do it with a survey, then that's fine... and great if they agree to pay for it!

pascal
70 53MY

[skammtoo]

I'm an insurance agent in Ct and I use Hagerty for certain autos and boats. They seem to be really great to go through.

Their "800" number is 1-800-922-4050.

Good luck!

K

[PascalG]

did't know they did boats... or maybe classic wooden boats but not fiberglass...

they have an excellent reputation for classic cars, and jsut like BoatUS, CNA is the company proividing the coverage.

pascal
70 53MY

[34Hatt]

Well I had similar problem, had Liberty Mutual for everything I owned bought my 34 Hatt and Insured it for 38,000 same as survey. After a two years of working on it heavily, with MAJOR updates had it surveyed again came out to 85,000 since the boat inside still was not complete. Sent it of to Liberty Mutual and they would not up the amount with out a "Appraisal" I told them I gave you the Survey the said we know but we want a Appraisal I told them its a boat not a house. Well after two weeks of getting the run around I asked them if they had anyone working there with Marine knowledge they didn't know so I told them they didn't. After giving them a few words and letting them know they didn't know squat they up the amount. Well two weeks later after thinking if they don't know anything about Marine what will happen if I ever had a claim, So I went to Boat U.S and after checking the Surveyor that had a GOOD REPUTATION " It makes a Difference" and showing them my web page of all the work done they had no problem with the amount. Planning on raising it again next year which could be interesting. Also got better coverage with Boat U.S for less money have to say so far very happy with them.

[67HAT34C]

BOAT US IS UNDERWRITEN BY CNA. I HAVE NOT READ ONE OF THE POLICIES BUT PLAN TO. I WOULD RECOMMEND EVERYONE READ YOUR POLICIES AND ESPECIALY READ THE EXCLUSIONS. THERE MAY BE EXCLUSIONS FOR MAINT. PROBLEMS. IF SO THEN ALMOST ANYTHING OTHER THAN COLLISION OR STORM WOULD BE EXCLUDED.

I AM A CNA CLAIMS ADJUSTER, DONT WORK WITH MARINE HOWEVER. I HANDLE COMMERCIAL AUTO. I HAVE INSURANCE WITH ANOTHER COMPANY THAT IS UNDERWRITEN BY AMERICAN FAMILY INSURANCE. RATE IS VERY GOOD BUT I AM NOT THRILLED WITH THE EXCLUSION PAGE, HAVE NOT COMPARED WITH OTHER CARRIERS FORMS. I PLAN TO CONTACT AMERICAN FAMILY AND GET A DETAILED DEFINITION OF "LOSS CAUSED BY MAINT. PROBLEMS"

WE OWN A 1967 34C, OUR AGREED VALUE WITH THE CARRIER IS 50K BASED ON THE LAST SURVEY. AS OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS WILL BE SUBJECT TO A NEW SURVEY IN ANOTHER YEAR OR SO AS WE ALSO HAVE UPGRADED EVERYTHING, YOU CAN SEE OLD PHOTOS WHEN BE BOUGHT IT ON THE VINTAGE CLUB PAGE, SAMS HAS A LINK.

WOULD ALSO ENCOURAGE ALL VINTAGE OWNERS TO JOIN THE PAGE, NO COST. GREAT FORUM FOR PARTS SWAP, IDEA SWAP ETC.

[adaily3224]

Jim,
I am also with Boat US. I had about $40,000 worth of upgrades, additions, and repairs done after I bought and insured my 88 36 Hatteras. I called Boat US, they asked for the receipts, and increased the insurance immediately.
The last boat I owned was also insured with Boat US. I hit a log floating in the water off the coast of Mass. and bent up my props and shafts. Two years later I started to feel a vibration. I had our local yard inspect the boat, the technician discovered one shaft was 1/4 inch shorter than the other, it had been replaced during the original repair. I called Boat US, they sent a surveyor, he agreed with the Tech and Boat US paid to have a new shaft, coupler, and the prop reconditioned, again no questions asked. Seems like pretty good service if you ask me.

[SKAMMTOO]

Just be careful, no matter who your carrier is , that you have fuel spill coverage. Not all carriers include this automatically in their policies.

K:o

[rmaher]

That last post is worth repeating; be sure to have fuel spill coverage. As the owner of a fuel dock, I don't pump fuel but instead hand the nozzle to the boater. I can't get coverage (at least none that anyone would want to afford!) and most fueling facilities are set up the same way. If the boater is fueling the boat, the financial responsibility is passed to the boater. Federal law requires that any amount of spill that leaves any size sheen on the water must be reported to the spill response center from which a Coast Guard and/or Federal/State investigation may result. A good friend was fined $1000.00 for spilling less than one/half gallon of diesel while fueling - it is important to add his initial discourse with the Coast Guard representative sent to investigate was not a positive one for whatever reason!

Rob

[Dick]

Just out of curiosity, and hopefully not a dumb question, but where does the fuel go? I always thought most evaporated. Which means that eventually, it comes down again in the form of rain, but does little damage. I never could understand why the coast guard would be interested in a half gallon floating in the water. It's not like the Valdez Alaska, but even after that massive spill, I think the environmentalists agree that there is no signif long lasting damage (but I haven't read anything about it lately, may be wrong on that as well).

Dick

[PascalG]

it's a joke... actually .. it's a scam... revenue for the governemtn.... but also causes our insurance premiums and fuel price to go up...

gas or diesel evaporates quickly... it's not like heavy fuel that sinks ...

when I fill up my 53, if I don't reduce the flow there are tiny droplets escaping from the vents, barely visible, until they reach the water and look like a big bad slick...

technically, I'm liable... when in fact it's not even 1/2 cup...

pascal

[Genesis]

... of fuel will make a NASTY slick and can get you fined.

I have a "recovery bottle" that goes over my fuel vents when I'm filling, It catches any "spitting". That and standing at the fill and listening to the pipe tells me when she's nearly full and to shut it down before the automatic shutoff clicks.

[mikep996]

Whether it seems right or not, the law says that if the "spill" leaves a sheen on the water, you are required to call the Coast Guard. A few drops of diesel will do that - it's actually far worse as a "sheener" than gasoline which will very quickly evaporate. A gasoline "sheen" caused by a vent spit will disappear in a minute or so. The diesel sheen stays until it is absorbed by something.

I can verify from watching a refuel operation where maybe 1/2 cup of diesel went into the water...the feds aren't kidding. The results convinced me to do as Genesis does...use a catch can on the fuel vent and listen to the sound as the tank fills. I also use an absorbant "collar" around the fuel nozzle when I'm refueling - it catches any back-spray from the tank.

It's not worth a possible fine - the guy that dumped the 1/2 cup of diesel had to pay a $5000 fine and the cost of the marina's clean-up. I was shocked. When the vent spit, no one doing the fueling thought anything about it...until the police showed up.

Be very careful when fueling!

[PascalG]

yes, I know... problem on the 53 is that the vents are too low to on the hull to be able to reach them from the deck if you are not docked on that side...

I guess installing something on the inside to catch any fuel before it can reach the vent will be the solution... one more project on te list :-)

pascal

[rufuschamblee]

Pascal,
I also use a catch can--No Spill by Davis bought at West Marine. Vents on my 42C are also low and hard to reach. I attached a 24" broom handle to the can.

Rufus

[jim rosenthal]

There are a couple of different commercial products that are supposed to make it safer to fuel up...Racor makes something that goes in the vent line, I think, and whistles; when the whistling stops, time to shut the fuel off. (if I've got this right). Someone also makes something where the catch device actually locks onto the vent, which is nice, but you have to change a fair amount of plumbing to get their vent on the side of the boat. If you were painting it anyway, maybe...
I use the David No-Spill that Pascal mentioned. If I keep an eye on it, it works okay so far. You have to loosen the black top of the No-Spill a little so air can escape. Loosen it too much and it falls in the water. Also make sure it is stuck well to the boat before you start fueling.
Diesel will evaporate if it is left alone. I have heard that the problem is that it is seldom left alone- folks usually use Joy or something like that, which emulsifies it and then it goes to the bottom and stays there. or so I;ve heard.

[Bob Bradley]

The fuel spill conversation got me thinking about one of my fishing techniques - using bunker (fish) oil mixed with my chum to put out a slick. If, as the placard on my boat states, "any slick" is illegal, I wonder if I could be fined for chumming.