Beam Sea Roll

[Chasemmc]

Is the roll experienced on a 15`10" hull in the 53~58YF length from a beam sea uncomfortable enough to warrant stabilizers? Looking at the used market some have and some don`t. All the wide body 56+ do have stabilizers. I`m trying to decide between the models and thinking of the admiral.
Thx
Mark

[Finalee]

In the aftermarket Stabalizers don't add a lot of value. That being said, they are well worth it. The Admiral will appreciate them. My 43 would roll terribly when they where off. Once turned on the roll is 90 % eliminated. I would the think the boats you are looking at are the same way.

[SEVEN]

They work well for us. I would hate to be in the Pacfic ocean without them.

[Dan Mapes]

We have heard they are good for a roll but they won't do a thing going into the seas.

[Fanfare]

I don't have stabilizers, so can't compare. If we start to roll at hull speed I just come up on plane. Then the rudders act just like stabilizers as I steer. It burns more fuel, but I save the money for the stabs. Also, I have no protruding fins sticking out, which I hear can cost a knot at top speed. I also hear about grounding damage from the fins. Not that I have ever been aground.

[Glory]

Get a boat with stabilizers you will not regret having them.

The maintenance is well worth it!!

JM

[Fanfare]

Or don't go out in seas like that.

[Chasemmc]

What does a cost of Naid Stabilizers cost to put in?
Is their a used market or is that asking for trouble?
mark

[GJH]

Much better to wait and buy a boat with a well maintained set already installed. A must-have for true pleasure boating in our opinion.
They just help with roll, the most uncomfortable and dangerous movement. Pitch, yaw and heave are still in play, so they are not a panacea for all thediscomforts the sea can provide.

[boatguy123@aol.com]

Is the roll experienced on a 15`10" hull in the 53~58YF length from a beam sea uncomfortable enough to warrant stabilizers? Looking at the used market some have and some don`t. All the wide body 56+ do have stabilizers. I`m trying to decide between the models and thinking of the admiral.
Thx
Mark
I have a 58 lrc and i have no issues with a beam sea. trade up, you won't be disipointed.

[Nonchalant1]

What does a cost of Naid Stabilizers cost to put in?
Is their a used market or is that asking for trouble?
mark

I added Naiad stabilizers with the new digital controls to a 53MY and it cost $43K in 2005. Still well worth it because the difference is huge. The boat doesn't roll when underway and you can make turns in heavy seas that would risk very heavy rolling or worse without having to time and execute the turn perfectly. Get a boat that is already stabilized with Naiads and you will not pay much extra, but the extra value is great.

[Toolsntoys]

So how does the "roll" compare to say a newer sedan bridge. Maybe a sea Ray 58. Now I understand that you wouldn't normally run a sea Ray at displacement speeds. My dock nieghbor has a silverton that rolls like crazy just sitting at the dock when a wave rolls in. If a Hatt is run at higher speeds like maybe 15kts would that help.
Thanks Pete

[Pete]

Based on my experience with our 48 LRC with Gyro-Gale stabilizers, the difference is most noticeable in the ICW when a large SF wake making machine goes by half on plane. Stabilizers OFF and everything not tied down takes flight. With the stabilizers ON you get a gentle straight up and down motion as the wake rolls under the boat. No help in heads seas, but the boat does well with reasonable head seas and, gets real wet when the seas build further.

Pete

[MikeP]

IMO, I would not pay for adding stabilizers. However, if I was looking at two old boats, one with and one without, I would definitely prefer the stabilizers if the boats were in the same condition and the price difference was not excessive.

OTOH, running a later model 53 as intended, mostly on plane, reduces the need for stabs. Everytime we operate on plane for extended periods, I am really impressed with how the boat handles/acts. CLEARLY the tendency of many (most?) of us to operate at displacement speeds nowadays due to fuel cost is counter to the intent/design of the boat.

If fuel was still .69 a gallon, the only time our 53 WOULDN"T be on plane would be in the marina! :)

It also throws a smaller wake on plane than it does at typical displacement cruise... ;)

[Freeebird]

So how does the "roll" compare to say a newer sedan bridge. Maybe a sea Ray 58. Now I understand that you wouldn't normally run a sea Ray at displacement speeds. My dock nieghbor has a silverton that rolls like crazy just sitting at the dock when a wave rolls in. If a Hatt is run at higher speeds like maybe 15kts would that help.
Thanks PeteJust curious, but why would you not normally run a Sea Ray at displacement speeds?

Granted most buy them because they have no interest in going slow and saving fuel, but the laws of physics still apply. That pertains to fuel usage and rolling. Running on plane will pretty much cure the rolling issue.

[Cricket]

Are the days of the stabilizers coming to an end now that Seakeeper's gyro's come in many models, price coming down, and also what seems to be a pretty good reliability track record?

[Freeebird]

Are the days of the stabilizers coming to an end now that Seakeeper's gyro's come in many models, price coming down, and also what seems to be a pretty good reliability track record?

It still boils down to spending a buttload of money vs pushing the throttles up a bit when you're not comfortable in a beam sea. I can see opting for a used boat that has stabilizers if you have no choice but to run at hull speed, but beyond that (no offense to anyone), it just seems like a HUGE waste of money to retrofit such things into existing boats.

[nautibake]

Are the days of the stabilizers coming to an end now that Seakeeper's gyro's come in many models, price coming down, and also what seems to be a pretty good reliability track record?

FWIW we love our Seakeepers. Granted, we've only had them for 6 months and just over 100 hours of run time. No need for holes / nothing protruding from the hull, no drag, they work when you are not in motion, and they work with following seas, also don't need hydraulics. Also very low maintenance (every 2000 hours they need a service call). The biggest drawback seems to be that they are expensive.

[krush]

The biggest drawback seems to be that they are expensive.

When does their patent expire?

[Pascal]

Another drawback to the gyros besides costs is space. I guess on most Hatt MY they woudl fit in the genny room, just.

I ve run a couple of hatts with stabs (fins) they work well in a beam sea. Mine has vosper mini fins which never worked and which I ll take out later on this year when I haul out for th repower. I looked around for someone who could overhaul them and nobody seems to be able to. Looking in the boat log, the most maintenance int naive item in the first few years were the stabilizers... Back in the 70s

Like everything else it comes down to how and where you use the boat. For occasional offshore trips when you can pick your days, you probably don't need them. If you need to run offshore on a regular basis and your time is short then they re probably worth it. Nowadays, I d probably go for thee gyros than fins though.

Getting on plane helps reduce the roll vs hull speed, a little. For the past 8 years I ve been running a non stabilized 70 footer (not a hatt) with an almost 20 beam but top heavy with enclosed FB, 14' tender, jetski and spare wheels up top. Rolls quite a bit even with just three footers on the beam at hull speed and sometimes hopping on plane is the only way to keep it reasonable... Burning 90 GPH at 21 vs 18 GPH at 10 kts. But in our case most of the trips are to bring the boat to the bahamas to pick up charter guests so I just try to look for a window and pick the right days to cross the stream and the NW channel or Tongue. Problem isn't just the fuel burn but th price of fuel... Keeping it slow means we can do the round trip on Miami diesel at 1.75 a gallon vs paying 3.10 in nassau or 3.90 in the exumas! Good incentive...

In our case though, adding stabs would make no sense...

[SKYCHENEY]

I never thought stabilizers were important. Even when I sea-trialed our boat, the fact that she had them installed was of no importance to me. Now, after owning her for 13 years, I would not own another boat without them. Even in calm seas, its so nice to not have to worry about spilled drinks and lamps tipping over if you get waked.

[Bugsy]

I had a 48 MY we took Great Loop then from Florida to Grenada; "A Gentleman's Passage South".

We had twin fin ( two a side) pneumatic stabilizers.

The trip into the Caribbean would not have been possible without those stabilizers!
Ask me about the Mona Passage and between Martinique and St. Lucia.

[MikeP]

I will admit that when we were looking at 53's (2003-4) we looked at several that had Naiads. My reaction was that I didn't care for the space they took in the ERs and I didn't see any need for them. Also, if I recall correctly, on none of the boats were the stabs actually working, they all needed an overhaul. So that didn't impress me at all. BUT the main issue back then, was that the stabs added a considerable amount of money to a used boat. For example, a nice 1980 53 MY could easily be 275k+. The same boat in equal condition with stabs might easily be 320+.

I have no idea how much they add price wise to an old Hatt now (I'm sure Eric would) but, as I said, after 12 years, there are plenty of times I think they would be nice to have but NOT at the price difference that existed then or for the price of a current install.

Frankly, the times I wish we had them was to do with boat wakes, not beam seas. Of course, usually you can just turn into/quarter the wake but sometimes there's insufficient room or traffic may prevent it.

[Glory]

Your right mike about the boat wakes, sometimes the wake sneak up on you. But at the end of the day it's a nice option. Like a bow thruster, davit, ice maker, AC, swim platform, transom door, hard top, or any of the things that enhances the lifestyle on the water.

You need to figure out the must haves on your own.

JM my

[nautibake]

When does their patent expire?

Good question - maybe that is the primary issue (with Seakeeper commanding a premium price), but I think there are some other market forces at play (overall value vs total cost of ownership).

[nautibake]

Another drawback to the gyros besides costs is space. I guess on most Hatt MY they woudl fit in the genny room, just.

2 SK M8000's (since upgraded and renamed the "SEAKEEPER 9") mounted beneath the MSR berth on the main stringers of 1977 Hatt 58 MY. If I'm not mistaken, the gyro's need to be installed aft of mid-ships.

20176

We were worried about noise, but from a practical standpoint it has never been an issue. If the Genny is running (which is required to drive the Seakeepers), then you just can't hear the Seakeepers.

[MikeP]

You sure those are stabilizers? They look eerily like somebody made a couple of small Trinity "gadgets" and hid them on your boat!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b3/4b/93/b34b931ec4f6b7d0480e2c898aa6c37d.jpg

[oscarvan]

Those are Marzel Vanes.

[Finalee]

I kept them on all the time while underway.

[nautibake]

You sure those are stabilizers? They look eerily like somebody made a couple of small Trinity "gadgets" and hid them on your boat!

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b3/4b/93/b34b931ec4f6b7d0480e2c898aa6c37d.jpg

...or this whole thing could be nothing more than an elaborate facade created by a malevolent cyber-intelligence in order to suck the life out of us in the real world!? And to think Seakeeper could be part of the machine...

[capttonyf]

2 SK M8000's (since upgraded and renamed the "SEAKEEPER 9") mounted beneath the MSR berth on the main stringers of 1977 Hatt 58 MY. If I'm not mistaken, the gyro's need to be installed aft of mid-ships.

20176

We were worried about noise, but from a practical standpoint it has never been an issue. If the Genny is running (which is required to drive the Seakeepers), then you just can't hear the Seakeepers.

Two questions about the Seakeepers Gyro. 1. Can that thing ever get hot and blow up, throwing you through the aft deck, and. 2. Do you think over time they could ever effect the integrity of the hull? It must be an awful amount of strain on the stringers. Trying to twist he entire length and mass of the boat back to level from all the way in the aft end. the entire 50ft to 90ft of say a large sportfish trying to roll and being twisted back from/by only a few feet of stringers seems like an awful amount of stress to that section of the hull. Does anyone have feedback on this.

Tony

[MikeP]

I must agree that it seems to me that retrofitting a boat with these gadgets MIGHT totally overstress the stringers in any particular boat since the boat was never designed to have stress applied to the stringers in that manner. Obviously if a boat is designed originally with the "gadget" in mind, it's no issue at all. OTOH, I ASSUME the company has done sufficient due diligence to be able to say whether it's OK or not for a particular application.

Or maybe they adjust the "output" IOW, Maybe the same size unit provides more correction in a robust boat as opposed to one of less structural strength.

I guess the company can answer the questions re that sort of thing. I will say that IF I was interested in retrofitting stabs, I'd rather have the gadget as opposed to fins sticking out and the related hydraulics IF the price AND performance was comparable.

[jim rosenthal]

I wondered the same things. Especially since the gyros are most likely to be turned on when you are in the worst conditions. Thus imposing the most strain on the hull. But I think Seakeeper are pretty careful about what boats they put them in and how they set the install up. We have one forum member who has one, in a 55 convertible; I had a ride on it a few years back. But the conditions were calm that day.

[nautibake]

Two questions about the Seakeepers Gyro. 1. Can that thing ever get hot and blow up, throwing you through the aft deck, and. 2. Do you think over time they could ever effect the integrity of the hull? It must be an awful amount of strain on the stringers. Trying to twist he entire length and mass of the boat back to level from all the way in the aft end. the entire 50ft to 90ft of say a large sportfish trying to roll and being twisted back from/by only a few feet of stringers seems like an awful amount of stress to that section of the hull. Does anyone have feedback on this.

Tony

I decided to pose these questions directly to Seakeeper. To my amazement, I had a response within 10 minutes (I have to say their support people have been responsive to all of my questions but this was over the top). I've cut and pasted their e-mail response here:

Two questions about the Seakeepers Gyro. 1. Can that thing ever get hot and blow up, throwing you through the aft deck, and. No, the Seakeeper cannot get hot and blow up. The units are liquid cooled with a closed glycol water loop and we bring raw water in to a heat exchanger to cool the entire unit. If for some reason sea water flow is lost or lacking, the unit will alarm and shut itself down to protect itself.

2. Do you think over time they could ever effect the integrity of the hull? It must be an awful amount of strain on the stringers. Trying to twist he entire length and mass of the boat back to level from all the way in the aft end. the entire 50ft to 90ft of say a large sportfish trying to roll and being twisted back from/by only a few feet of stringers seems like an awful amount of stress to that section of the hull. Does anyone have feedback on this. We’ve never had any hull integrity issues. I often use this example…. We’ve installed our systems on old wooden boats built in the 30’s…. we have had great success on several pre-WWII built Mathis Trumpys. Modern hulls can handle these systems with ease. Obviously proper installation techniques are key, and on many projects, a naval architect has been involved to help plan the Seakeeper’s foundation. We started shipping systems in March of 2008 and have never had any stringers become damaged due to a properly installed Seakeeper’s loads. We have units in the field with tens of thousands of hours without issue.

Thanks,
Brook Stevens
Regional Sales Manager

SEAKEEPER, INC.
44425 Pecan Ct., Suite 151
California, MD 20619

Direct: +1.410.326.1590 x137
Mobile: +1.301.717.6280
www.seakeeper.com

[jim rosenthal]

This is interesting. They are a local company- St Mary's County, MD, I had no idea.

[rsmith]

Physics are physics and work is work. Stabilizers mounted in unsupported areas of the hull have to exorcise the same energy to stop rolling moment as the sea keeper does. I think I'd rather it be concentrated on the main structural beams of the boat that also carry the engine weight. Fin types do have an advantage of more leverage arm from the center of roll but not sure how much advantage that is.

[nautibake]

This is interesting. They are a local company- St Mary's County, MD, I had no idea.

The amount of force necessary to "right" the boat would be the same whether it is a gyro on the stringers or fins protruding from the hull. Based on the stabilizer fins I've seen with basically no structural support other than the hull itself, I'm not sure how something attached to the backbone of the boat is more of an issue. But then, I'm probably biased since I inherited the gyros from the PO, and I'm certainly not a naval architect or engineer.

[nautibake]

Physics are physics and work is work. Stabilizers mounted in unsupported areas of the hull have to exorcise the same energy to stop rolling moment as the sea keeper does. I think I'd rather it be concentrated on the main structural beams of the boat that also carry the engine weight. Fin types do have an advantage of more leverage arm from the center of roll but not sure how much advantage that is.

rsmith beat me to it, I was having the same thought about force, mass and acceleration. I think I'll take the stringers.

[bobk]

I have Naiads on my 48MY. I'm not sure if Hatteras did the installation, but the mounting area looks to be beefed up with extra glass and the pistons are mounted to beefy wood blocks to 'spread the load'.

Bobk

[krush]

Less force is required the further away from the center of mass/buoyancy. It's a lever arm

[MikeP]

I pulled up the website out of curiosity..they ARE a bit complex in the sense that you can't just turn them on/off as you can with nIADS. Plus, of course, they do use a lot of elec power which, as has been noted will require the genny to be running to use them. Of course, in the "old days" it was expected that for most people with (say) a 53MY, the Genny would be running most of the time anyway... ;) Heck, we intended to operate that way (and on plane) when we bought our 53 but fuel prices changed our way of thinking.

I think the sea keeper is a neat installation but there are some limitations to consider, the main ones being the need to operate the Genny at all times and the time it apparently takes to spool up. If I read the info right, it takes 30-40 minutes for the gyro to come up to speed. Obviously depending on your usual method of operation, that may or may not matter. Certainly it would make no difference on a run up the outside to/from LI from the Chesapeake, for example. OTOH, on a short run - more typical of what we do - we would be half way to where we were going by the time the unit was able to provide stabilization. Of course, obviously we could start up the penny, turn on the unit 30-40 minutes prior to leaving which, I guess, is no big deal. Genny fuel usage is really the only consideration, I guess.

[Fanfare]

Best of all it sounds like the gyros will work when the boat is not moving. Could be great in a rolly anchorage.

[doc g]

I'm sure u can start it up on shorepower at the dock half hour before u plan leave ......Pat

[Cricket]

Have a few friends that have added Seakeepers to some custom boats, Viking, and a Hatteras, most say they don't want to use their boats if the the gyro isn't working afterwards. Last year while staying overnight offshore just before it got dark I could see the difference in the rolling between 2 identical full tower Vikings, one with and one without. Without got a gyro addition this winter.

[oscarvan]

None on eBay.......

So how many boat units are we talking for, say, a 53MY?

[nautibake]

I'm sure u can start it up on shorepower at the dock half hour before u plan leave ......Pat

We normally spool them up on shore power. Even if we leave at the spur of the moment we can be stabilized by the time we get out of the marina.

[nautibake]

I pulled up the website out of curiosity..they ARE a bit complex in the sense that you can't just turn them on/off as you can with nIADS. Plus, of course, they do use a lot of elec power which, as has been noted will require the genny to be running to use them.

All very good observations. Couple of minor clarifications. You actually can turn them "off" with a push of the "Lock" button. Granted, the gyro's don't stop spinning, however the arm moving the gyros locks into place. Also, as noted in other post, we spool up on shore power typically. We get to the 6K RPM needed to start stabilizing in about 25-30 minutes, and the full 8K in about 35-40 minutes. The power draw drops by 40-50% once the gyro's are spooled up, but it definitely still requires, the genny, especially with both gyro's in play. If we are expecting anything less than 2-3 footers, we only spool up one of the gyros btw.

[MikeP]

LOL...I found a price on a Seakeeper 9 as 68k USD.

It's a neat system BUT...

I can't imagine spending that kind of money on an old boat. On a new, multi million $ boat, sure! But on an old Hatt it seems to ludicrous to do anything other than laugh uproariously about adding an accessory that costs 1/3 what the boat is worth. :)

[SEVEN]

You are so right Mike.

[jim rosenthal]

For 68K, you can buy a lot of nights waiting for the weather to improve. Or you can buy a lot of Dramamine and Zofran.

[SeaEric]

I met a fellow who is involved with Sea Gyro, built in Australia, when he came here to look at a boat. He indicated that his unit was much more affordable. I know nothing of the company nor do I have any involvement in any way. Just thought I'd pass that tidbit FWIW. As always - YMMV.

[Cricket]

Pretty sure the cost of the gyro's will be coming down as competition and also economies of scale take over in the next few years. Gyros will be right there with the Eskimo ice maker, mezzanine, and Sat TV on every sportfish boat, they're already showing up in big outboards.

[nautibake]

LOL...I found a price on a Seakeeper 9 as 68k USD.

It's a neat system BUT...

I can't imagine spending that kind of money on an old boat. On a new, multi million $ boat, sure! But on an old Hatt it seems to ludicrous to do anything other than laugh uproariously about adding an accessory that costs 1/3 what the boat is worth. :)

Yeah, amazing isn't it. I wouldn't have done it either, and the PO not only put one SK unit in, but two, so 2X your number plus installation was a total of $175K. Apparently it wasn't primarily an economic concern for him. Anyway, according to the surveyor, the boat is worth $215K (which is quite a bit more than it sold for), so I suppose that completely supports your point. I have to admit here that I am very thankful to have them and appreciate the investment the PO made.

[TopHattandTails]

Two comments - I had Niads in my 53. The best component on the boat besides the main engines! They work great for any sea condition from 3pm to 9pm. They also did a nice job leveling the boat out in a cross wind where the trim tabs were ineffective. Second, I'm building a 58' Roscioli now. Put the Sea Keeper 9 in it. It is really affective. It took up about 50% of the cockpit sole - so yes they are large. They are better at keeping the role down from ~12 knots and under. Otherwise the hull does its job. This application will be for fishing. I'll check in in October when the boat gets delivered, but I've been on several boats with them fishing several long days - their really nice.

[SeaEric]

I'm building a 58' Roscioli now. Put the Sea Keeper 9 in it. It is really affective. It took up about 50% of the cockpit sole - so yes they are large. They are better at keeping the role down from ~12 knots and under. Otherwise the hull does its job. This application will be for fishing. I'll check in in October when the boat gets delivered, but I've been on several boats with them fishing several long days - their really nice.
Wow! That's the headline here. Congrats, and post some pics!

[saltshaker]

I was told by Seakeeper that I would need 3 units in my 65C. Around 300K installed

[jim rosenthal]

So how do you like them? :)

[oscarvan]

I was told by Seakeeper that I would need 3 units in my 65C. Around 300K installed

Yallzah!

[SKYCHENEY]

I was told by Seakeeper that I would need 3 units in my 65C. Around 300K installed

I have been on a 1978 60C with Naiads and they really do a nice job. I would think at less than 1/3 the price of the Seakeeper, I'd go with the Naiads for your boat.

[MikeP]

Naiads? Geez, how low tech!

What else do you do, play records on a turntable and use a tube amplifier?


Oh, wait. I do exactly that...


Yeah - go with the Niaads! :)

[saltshaker]

I have been on a 1978 60C with Naiads and they really do a nice job. I would think at less than 1/3 the price of the Seakeeper, I'd go with the Naiads for your boat.and we all know that those 60s are rolly boats!😆 I have naiads and was not serious about the Seakeepers. I was at a show and they showed me pics of a 65EB they put 3 in. For 300K I'd sell my boat, add the 300K and get a 60C with Cats or maybe a newer 65 or 70 with 16V2000 MTUs. I don't see either in my near future.

[rsmith]

and we all know that those 60s are rolly boats! I have naiads and was not serious about the Seakeepers. I was at a show and they showed me pics of a 65EB they put 3 in. For 300K I'd sell my boat, add the 300K and get a 60C with Cats or maybe a newer 65 or 70 with 16V2000 MTUs. I don't see either in my near future.

Sky's talking about Melody which is an open bridge 60. They roll far less than the EB version

[rsmith]

I was told by Seakeeper that I would need 3 units in my 65C. Around 300K installed

Hey after all it is an EB. Lol

[nautibake]

In case it is a consideration for anyone (current economic feasibility / practicality aside), the SK units in my boat weigh over 1200 lbs each. 3 of them would start adding up...