SPRAY/LIFT RAILS FOR 45C

[Russ Robins]

WOULD LIKE TO RECEIVE SOME DIFINITIVE ANSWERS ON THE SPRAY/LIFT RAIL DEBATE. SUCH AS; WHO IS SUPPLING THE BEST SYSTEM FOR ADHERING THEM (ADHESIVE OR MECHANICAL FASTENER OR BOTH), THE BEST DIMENSIONS FOR REDUCED SPRAY AND INCREASED SPEED. ONLY ON THE BOW OR FULL LENGHT? THERE SEEMS TO BE MANY SHOPS TOUTING THEIR PRODUCT, BUT WHERE IS THE HARD EVIDENCE? I AM AWARE THAT ALL BOATS REGARDLESS OF SIMILARITIES WILL REACT IN THEIR OWN MANNER BUT SOME GOOD EXPLANATIONS AND PERSONAL ANECDOTES WILL GO A LONG WAY. APPRECIATE ALL REPLYS HOPE I CAN HELP OUT IN RETURN . Russellhlrobins@aol.com

[GByramjr]

I installed the Smart Rail which is a vinyl extrusion and is fastened with an industriail adhesive. It is comparatively cheap and easy to do. I have a '53 SF which is a very wet boat. I installed the rails for about 2/3 of the length and while I have not noticed any improvement in speed, the boat is considerably and comfortably drier. I was concerned about them coming loose but they have been on about 2 years now and have held up well. They do have to be blocked when the boat is hauled and when my boat was last hauled, one of the blocks slipped and pulled the upper attachment loose for about 4-6 inches. It was easily reattached with a little of the adhesive.
George Byam

[Russ Robins]

Thanks for the reply. Im sure that all rails would need to be blocked, even if bolted. Ive seen the smart rail at the shows and, admittedly, was turned off becouse the guy kept 'pushing' show pricing. Its good to hear that you are satisfied. Has any one had experience with the Hatteras supplied rails or any others. Thanks

[OldHatt45]

Russ,
I did the job (adding rails) myself with some help from a couple of friends, and Tom Slane. It is a job not to be taken lightly.

Made a couple small mistakes allong the way, but nothing I haven't been able to fix.

Email me at c.d.brengel@att.net and I'll be happy to send you a bunch of info.

PS: Have picked up about 1.5 to 2.5 knots and the boat is a lot drier.

[34Hatt]

Hello all I Installed the smart rails system this spring on my 67 34C. I did them from Bow to Stern stopping about 8" from the stern since that where 3 1/2 rail lengths ran out. I have seen about 1/2 Knot in speed but a nice change in spray. The spray use to run right up the side of the hull in the mid ship area and now it shoots out away from the boat. As for spray on the bow it works well until the seas get so big the ways hit above the rails. But the amount of water is still less. As for fuel I see no change. I would diffidently do these over building them from scratch . The hardest part was because I didn't like the looks of the gel coat so I stripped to raw glass and built it back up with west system. When the prep was done myself and the wife did 63' of rails in 7 hrs.
Dan

[oldhatt45]

Russ,
Finally finished the little document last nite, on my experiences installing my own rails (on my 45C). Tried to Email it to you but got an Undeliverable Recipient notice. Please provide a good email and I will send it along. If a moderator reads this response - I'd also be happy to post the document on the site somewhere or email to you, for posting. See my previous post for my email address.

[BUGS TOO 58YF]

OldHatt45,

I would appreciate a copy of the spray rail doc you have authored. I need to get rails this week before they splash her.

Thanks,
Bill (bhadley@environmentalbiotech.com)

[saltshaker36]

Russ,
I too would appreciate any info and comments you have with regards to change in performance, handling, ride etc. I have a 46' sportfish which rides on the same hull as your 45. E-mail me at saltshaker36@hotmail.com
Thanks Jack

[skindr1999]

Please just enlighten all of us here with the bottom line facts necessary to make an informed decision. Thanks

[oldhatt45]

skindr1999,

The doc I've put together is a bit toooo long to publsih here. However, with respect to the bottom line facts, here is what I've done over the past 6 seasons and what I've achieved.

To put things in perspective, I started out with the boat at 13.8 knots, on the pins six years ago.
I am now cruising at 22 Knots (at 2000 RPM). She has 8V71TI engines with Allison 2:1 gears. So here is the list of things I did.
1. I rebuilt the Port side engine (yes I physically did it myself). (cruise @ 14 knots) Ask around about using Natural kits instead of TI kits ;-)
2. New 4 Blade Nibral Props (From S&S Propellers) 28 X 30 with 3 degree cup (+ 1.5 knot @ cruise) Old props were mismatched and just plain wrong.
3. Scraped 25 coats of Bottom Paint off, faired the bottom, barrier coated & repainted with 3 coats of Abalative paint (+ 2 knots @ cruise)
4. Replaced the Air Intake vents (from Tom Slane) Formula for Air required is: Engine HP / 3.3 = Square Inch Vent Area (+ 1 knot)
5. Replaced the 2 piece prop shafts with the muff coupler, with One piece shafts (aquamet 22 also from S&S) (+ 0.5 knots) Also installed dripless PYI shaft seals at same time.
6. Built and installed Shaft tubes (installed between the struts) (+ 0.5 knots)
7. Built and installed the Lifting Rails (had too much angle - was approx 14 degrees) (+ 1 knot)
8. Reworked the Rails (actually decresed the angle by filling the hole rather than cutting anything off) for the rear most 15 feet to 8 degrees. (+ 1.5 knots)

Plan to flatten the rails another 12 feet or so. I think I can get another .5 to 1 knot. The 8 degree portion extends to just under the rear of the engines and I believe it needs to go
to around the front of the engines.

I've also been thinking about some way to keep the fuel COOLER. From what I have found out, for every (I think I`remember the right numbers) 10 degrees of temperature rise of the fuel
you lose 3% of your horsepower.

Anyhow, these are the things I've done. I'd be happy to discuss any/all with you.

[tony 275]

All of the previous text seems to be extremely intresting.The only thing I don't understand is how a fuel cooler can have any long lasting effect on the temperature of fuel that must pass through cast iron that is heated to a minimum of 180 degrees.I totally understand the concept of denser molecules in cool fuel,but unless the engine has external fuel lines,I don't think it can possibly be effective,no matter what you do that fuel is going to reach the ambient temperature of the cylinder head.I know Detroit always used them,but I doubt their value. Tony

[alfonso]

I will also appreciate a copy of the spray rail document you have authorized. My e-mail is ,
cruzcol@prtc.net
Iwil made a good use of it.
THANKS ALFONSO

[oldhatt45]

Tony,

THe idea of cooling the fuel is just an idea at this point.
If you stop and think about it and look at enough boats, you'll find that virtually every diesel boat has fuel coolers. The object is to cool the fuel going back into the tank such that the next time it gets pulled into the engine it's at a temperature less than what it was when it came straight out of the engine. This can't help but keep the temperature down to some degree. At this point I don't know an awful lot about sizes of coolers required, location, etc., but I have seen both interior and exterior (keel) coolers. Again, it's just an idea and I haven't completed any research. Anyhow stay tuned. I will probably do the research this winter and if it isn't too big a project maybe do it this coming spring.

[oldhatt45]

Just Adding a reply to this thread to get it where the folks currently discussing the topic can find and read it, rather than rehash it all over again.

To those I've emailed. My 45 is out of the water now and I'd be happy to meet you and talk things over. Just email me at OldHatt45@att.net

Tight Lines

[jim rosenthal]

My CAT 3116s have return fuel coolers. They are set up so that the cold water coming in from the seawater intake goes through them before it does anything else. The fuel going back to the tank is thus colder.
Most diesels pump three to five times the fuel that they use. The 3116 is particularly active int his respect because the fuel flow is used to partly cool the head and the injector assemblies run in a bath of filtered fuel from which they draw what they inject- there is no lift pump or injector lines as such. When the engine is warmed up, anything in it is heated to 180-190 F I am sure. That said, I think cooling the fuel doing back to the tank probably (?) retards tank growth a little. It may make the whole head-cooling process work more effectively. Whether it has any effect on performance is doubtful.

[oldhatt45]

Jim, call Catepiller. Ask to talk to an engineer.
By the way, have you ever noticed that when it warms up in the summer, your boat slows down for the same RPMS when you're running relatively close to shore?

[jim rosenthal]

Actually, I think my boat runs slower in shallow water regardless of temperature. It seems to run better in deeper water. I have no explanation for this; does anyone else? I wish I knew. Beyond about twenty feet doesn't seem to make a difference. I assume that in some way the pressure way of the boat's passage is reflecting off the bottom and interfering with its' hydrodynamics, but how I have no idea.

[skammtoo]

I have a 1965 50' motoryacht and she runs much slower when we encounter shallow water. It's due to the "squatting effect" that actually causes the boat to pull towards the bottom.

This is what caused the grounding of the QEII in New England a few years back.

It's like losing the cushion of air under an airplane wing.:smokin

[34Hatt]

Wow that is the first time I have heard that a boat goes slower in the shallows. My 67 34C gains 1kt in 15' or less. I also know other boats that also gain I have always been told this is due to getting lift in the stern of the bottom. It is for the same reason that a lot of hatts gain speed with lifting rails running the length of the chime. It gives lift to the stern and some guys have gone as far as adding to the stern and usually gain speed.:rollin

[saltshaker36]

I read an article about this years ago and I believe that the explanation was that most planing hulls run faster in shallow water due to increased lift but displacement hulls will run slower (can't remember why). I know that my 46' SF runs a good 2 kts faster in water less than 10-12ftand she does seem to get up on top of the water a bit more. I have a friend with a 42 Post and another with a 48 Viking that both run run faster in the shallows. I've always heard that you never sea trial a boat in a river or bay that is less than 15ft for this reason. Wish I could remember the factors that effect each hull differently.

Jack Sardina

[rufuschamblee]

Please e-maqil me your data on lifting rails. rufusm@elcoyote.com

[will shelton]

Hey, I have a 43 DC. I wanted to know if I could benefit from these lifting rails in any way. If so, do you think that I would gain speed or fuel efficiency? If so, how much do you think?

Any ideas or guesstimates would be appreciated. My email is wshelton136@aol.com

[aah924]

I would like to read the info. on the spray rails. I have a '72, 36' Hatteras. My email is: hallra4@comcast.net

Thanks,


Allen

[Traveler 45C]

Check this out site:

www.thesmartrail.com/ (http://www.thesmartrail.com/)

Greg

[oldhatt45]

Smart rails are from what I see, are plastic appendages meant as "Spray Rails" NOT Lifting Rails. I can imagine the first time a 20-25 ton boat gets hauled out without adequate protection of the "Smart Rails". Also note that from the info on the Smart Rail site, that those rails are 1.5 inches wide. How much lift would you expect to get from that? Also, I didn't see the angle they are set at. But they looked Curved, so I don't know what the effect would be. The rails I built and installed, on my boat are now part of the boat! After 3 launches and haulouts taking minimal precautions in terms of reducing stress on the rails, there has been NO Problem. Also, the rails I put on are 4.25 inches (approx) wide at the stern and carry that width forward about 20 ft and then taper to flat 3 ft short of the bow. Not thatthe Smart Rail system isn't good, just not for me and what I wanted them to do.