Rudder Ports - 1978 53MY

[Nonchalant1]

Per a previous post, my rudders have too much play between the shafts and the ports. They're probably both worn from years of use. I thoroughly read Murray's (first230SL) previous posts about his 1971 58YF ports and mine are different (Wouldn't ya' know they just had to different?) Mine have a bottom port like Murray's and then a very strong box surrounding the packing glands with a second heavy bushing at the top of the box. The shafts stick up through the port, glands, and bushing and are held on by what appears to be a set-screw collar and the keyed rudder arm. I took pictures, but the picture upload feature here doesn't work.

Anyone have experience with this type?

Thanks,

Doug Shuman

[GaryNW]

Sounds like you have a basic (2) bearing setup, which I think is pretty standard.
The top bearing is located in a shelf between stringers-or box glassed into hull in your case. It reacts the load put into the rudder arm and provides a flange that the collar rides on. The collar, of course, keeps gravity at bay. I suppose the rudder arm can be designed to also be the collar, but whats a few more inches of shaft?
Gary

[Nonchalant1]

Thanks. I took my son down to the boathouse today and we got them both out OK. The only things that hold them in are the collar, which has a single setscrew, and the rudder arm, which would keep it in if the collar failed. It turns out that mine have the rubber bearings exactly like my cutlass bearings on the prop shafts (same 2" size too). The rubber bearings were worn severly but rudders and shafts are still completely perfect and smooth.

Now I don't see how to get the bronze collared rubber bearings out of the thru-hulls. If there's a set screw to hold it, it's bolted and 5200'd up into the hull! I don't think it can be cut to be removed because the top of the thru-hull tube is smaller than the OD of the bearing collar.

Has anybody done this on a 53MY before? I sent a message to the 36 owner, but the port's probably different.

Thanks,

Doug Shuman

[Nonchalant1]

I called Sam's and Steve McPhereson says they're just press-fit into the port. You buy one 8" prop shaft bearing and cut it in half to use as two 4" rudder shaft bearings. I'll take the arms from a gear pu;;er down to the boat tomorrow and try to pull them out.

Doug

[Nonchalant1]

Continuing saga.... I tried "tapping" the bearings out with a hammer and a gear puller device. No go. Then I tried "Banging" them out. No go. Then I tried "whanging" them out with a sledge (but not hard enough to break anything. Still no go.

I'll call Sam's again - maybe Steve has one there and can look at it to see if there are set-screws to hold it in. It looks like I'm going to have to remove the thru-hulls to get the bearings out!

Triple PITA.

If anybody has done this, I'd appreciate some tips. Mine are not like Murray's because mine have the rubber prop-shaft bearings (which Steve McPhereson says are the original setup) and my thru-hulls have a bottom plate on the hull bottom exterior whule Murray's bolts just go through the fiberglass.

Doug

[mike]

Doug,
Your rubber bearings/logs look just like the ones in our '72 53MY, I don't believe you have a rubber bearing system. It appears to be one of the solid bronze units. i would advise unbolting the flange pulling the system out the bottom and work from there to determin what you have. I agree it's a major PITA.

Mike

[Banshee36]

I had to to the same thing this past summer on my 36. The rudder port broke due to the bolts rotting off the rudder bearing up on the rudder shelf. Mine had no plate on the outside of the hull , just bolts thru the fiberglass. The plate is for boats with cored hulls, according to my local boat repairman. You can get new ports from Buck-alaqouin(?). The newones are super heavy-duty. I have to replace the stb port this spring.
Hope this helps.
JW

[doc g]

Did you try an air hammer? I know sometimes the yards use an air hammer with a splitter type device, sort of like an old style can opener, cut the bearing case then air hammer it out. You may also try a recip saw (sawzall) . Cut the bearing case in two places then bang it out with the right size drift............catch my drift ?.................Pat

[Nonchalant1]

Thanks,

I did call Steve McPhereson...different boats have different rudder thru-hulls. My 1978 53MY definitely has an original press-fit brass and rubber propshaft bushing (4" long) in the bronze thru-hull tube. It's his part number 48384, with a picture of it on his website (isn't Sam's a great resource?). His picture is below. The bottom plate has the actual thru-hull cast into it. The top plate just holds it on. Steve also suggested trying to carefully saw the bushing in half to knock it out. I may have to take the whole assembly out of the hull.

I appreciate your help. I'll repost this after I figure it out and do it in case others need to replace theirs in the future.

Doug

[GaryNW]

Curiosity has had me reading a bit on cutless bearing removal. Almost everyone states the need to cut thru the bearing shell in at least one (some say two) place(s). Sawsall or equal. A key issue is if the bearing is a "blind" installation. If it is a blind install, you will not have access to the top edge of the bearing (under the packing nut). This makes it way more difficult to both saw and pull on. Blind pullers are made, but I don't know if they could work in rubber.

Suggest you check with Hatteras and perhaps BA on how to proceed. Also call around to local yards to see if they have the equipment needed. You would not like the price to buy your own puller. Obviously, you can't be the first one to need this done. Good luck!
Gary

[doc g]

Gary ,
If you take the packing and gland nut off ,I believe this thing is just a tube,like a shaft log. Therefore it is not a problem to cut it. Even if you hit the side of the tube it really does not matter as the cutlass bearing will be inside of it (the tube ) . I would check and make sure there no set screws anywhere ,first though................................Pat

[Nonchalant1]

Pat,

Steve McPhereson had one in his hand and assures me that there are no set screws and that the bearing is the standard prop shaft bearing that's rubber in a bronze tube and is pressed in. I removed the gland nuts and the top of the thru-hull fitting is smaller than the tube! The whole tube and bottom plate is all cast as one piece of bronze and then the tube is bored out to fit the OD of the bearing. The bore doesn't go all the way to the top because the threads for the gland nut are there and the tube wall is thicker at the top for that reason. Maybe I can cut it with a sawzall, but there's only 1/4 in. clearance between the top of the bearing and the end of the bore hole for it. I'm going to take one of them out for sure, probably both.

More later.

Doug

[Geoff58yf]

Doug,
Kemosabe is a 78 58 yf and I believe the same rudder configuration. If youre doing all this work and everything is out of the way, you should consider closely checking your rudder tables. After 25+ years of rudder stress, it seemed the top (where the shaft passes through) was looking aged. Our solution was to overlay a ssteel pad (see pix) and bolt it down. This was actually done when we were in the water by tapping the rudder shafts and letting them "hang" from the ceiling of the lazarette. Just something to consider when youre doing so much work.
geoff,
kemosabe 58yf
i hope i attached the pic correctly....

OK, MAYBE THE PIX WILL ATTACH THIS TIME

[Nonchalant1]

Geoff,

I think I know what you're recommending. My rudder table has a triangular bronze bushing plate mounted to it where the rudder shaft passes through. It is the top support for the rudder and has the mating surface where the support collar rides. It holds the rudder up. It looks like it's in good condition. However, the bolts are a little loose so I'll check the wood underneath it to make sure that it'll be OK, with the bolts tightened, for another 25 years.

BTW - To upload pictures you have to scroll down to the "manage attachments" button when creating or editing a post, plus you have to have a picture that's small enough in memory size to be accepted.

Thanks,

Doug

[GaryNW]

So Doug, I take it you don't have the bearings out yet? Since you are doing all the work, I suggest removing the ports from the boat! I'm sure you have considered the advantages- at 25+ years it would be good to re-bed everything (remember Murrey's leaking problem). Plus you would verify integrity of the bolts and replace as required. Worse case if you decide to go with new ports, I believe I saw them at less than $300 ea. I'd bet BA hasn't changed a thing so the holes would all line up etc.
I take it Hatteras used an insert in the mold to create a 90 degree surface for the port's base plate? I see BA makes (2) types-one for outside mounting, which you have, and one for inside mounting. The inside mounting type would be used where a mold insert is not used. A tapered build-up on the inside of the hull then gives the 90 degrees. I think what you have is the best system- but it does require that the builder has figured out exactly where the rudder ports belong before lay-up begins.
keep us posted.....
Gary

[Nonchalant1]

I took one port out yesterday. Whadd'ya call it, the "port-port"? The bottom plate and the actual rudder shaft tube is are cast as one piece and the bearing is press fit into the tube. The bottom plate is already cast with the correcet angles and shape of the bottom of the hull. The top plate is just a plate. It's a ROYAL pain to get that SOB out of the hull. The bolts were all fine. The original caulking is VERY strong. Gott'a take each bolt out first and then split the seal between the bottom plate and the bottom epoxy mounting pad with a sharp, wide chisel and sledge. I'm glad I'm not paying $100/hr for me.

There's no set-screw, just like McPhereson said. I got the thru-hull on the bench, cut the bearing with a sabre saw and tapped it out from the top with a long nail follower and a hammer. I pressed the new bearing in with wood blocks and a sledge hammer. I lightly oiled the bearing tube and the inside of the bore first. It really takes a lot of force to get it to seat correctly.

Now I gott'a clean all the caulk out of the mounting hole and bolt holes in the hull and remount the thru-hull with a lot of 5200, plus I'll need my son (or the Admiral) to hold the bolts from the outside while I tighten them from the inside after loading them up with 5200 too.

For the starboard bearing, I'm just going to leave the thru-hull in place and cut the bearing and tap it out from inside the Lazarette by using the arms of a large gear puller to catch the top of the bearing and a long rod to strike the top of the puller arms. If that works, it'll save about 6 hours of work and a major hassle. Since the port thru-hull was perfect before I took it out, I'm going to assume the sb is too. It looks fine from everything I can see.

I'm taking pictures so I can document this in another thread here so the next guy will know how to do it.

Doug

[Nonchalant1]

I figured it out! I just cut the starboard bearing (single cut), hit the bearing inwards 1/8" with a drift to loosen it, drilled a hole in the bearing about 1/2" in and used the drift as a lever to extract the old bearing enough to grab it with vise grips. The picture "cut & drilled" shows the small hole in the bearing used to lever it out, which is shown in "punch removing".
It doesn't matter that you'll badly score the thru-hull as you cut through the bearing because the thru-hull just holds the bearing, and it really holds it strongly. No water seals there, because water along the shaft is kept out by the packing gland above the thru-hull.
Then I cleaned and oiled the hole and used a hydraulic jack to press the new bearing in. This is a huge time and PITA savings versus taking the whole freaking thru-hull out so you can get at it on the workbench and tap out the bearing from the top, and then reinstall and 5200 the thru-hull again, which is what I did with the port side. I just wasn't smart enough to do it the easy way first. Below are pictures of the process. I got the rudders back in today and they're tight and smooth with almost no vettical or horizontal slop. It's also important to tighten up the rudder table bushing plates strongly after the rudder is in place and aligned.


Doug Shuman