Experts ?

[MikeP]

I decided to post this based on the ongoing inverter "discussion."

What makes anyone an expert on anything? Is it years spent doing a particular thing? Is it reading about it? Is it the ability to refer someone to appropriate documents? Is it completing your first installation of an item?

I've been on this site since '04. So I've seen who has come and gone at least since then. For those of you fairly new to the sight, I wouldn't be too concerned about the alleged experts who have allegedly left. I don't see any reduction in the quality of information available on any subject related to these boats. In fact, I'd say the opposite.

One "expert" who used to be here a lot and answered questions with great authority was ASKING the same questions a year prior on the Boat Diesel site. Now, IMO, there's nothing really wrong with that - after all, how do you learn anything without asking questions or just diving in and trying it yourself.

Another "expert" posted his recommendations re painting gained from his "years of experience." Turned out that the entire posting - several paragraphs - were copied/pasted from the paint manufacturer's web site (without any reference to that). So is he an expert? My gut reaction was quite the opposite but OTOH, it WAS good information and if you followed "his" advice, you would be fine.

There has been much made of how installing a lot of whatevers makes a person an expert. True - at installing whatevers. That is not the same as using whatevers. Installing and operating/using something is two different things. If I want to know if inverter X and batteries Y will do what I want, I want to hear from somebody who uses that configuration on a regular basis in real life. That may be a person who can't even change a light bulb but his experience using the system makes him an expert in that aspect. OTOH, if a person makes a living and is an "expert" at let's say, rebuilding Ford motors, would you consider him to rebuild your Chevy motor? If the answer to that is "no" then if you want an Outback inverter installed, you wouldn't want somebody who has never installed an Outback inverter to do it. That approach would seem silly to me but that's just me. Someone else may feel completey different

"Expert" is in the eye of the beholder. But no one should get upset if someone disagrees with their opinion..

[Boatsb]

Mike some people design and implement systems for a living. An inverter, generator or even a switch is a part of that system and not a stand alone device in most applications. Electricity is not a simple DIY process in fact the licensing required for it is staggering.

Low voltage as in AV and security allows for some 110 volt AC installation too
High voltage is quite another science as it goes over the voltage we commonly use at home or in our boats.
Marine especially for inspected vessels and our government is even more specific in what is allowable and not.


Mike if you built ford motors then you each of the sub systems like electrical and fuel. Holly vs carter vs Rochester comes to mind. If someone only drives the car and have no technical understanding the installation of a carb may not be impossible but I bet it is done by the book at the most basic level in the supplies instructions. the driver is not an expert technician. he is an operator and may not even be able to provide correct technical feedback but only anecdotal feedback based on a less than optimized installation.

Don't try to speak to both sides like a politician. Its not becoming and it certainly does not serve anyone buy the politician.

By the way different manufacturers of inverters make different quality and featured products. Knowing how to properly design and install the inverter into the system is dependent on these features. The more capable the inverter the more elegant the install. Thats why we use specific ones for more integrated solutions and not the outback and xanterex very often.

[Avenger]

IMHO (and that's Humble, of course I'm being honest) I think the problem we're seeing here isn't so much about experience vs sources. It's entirely about egos.

http://i52.tinypic.com/9hjbrm.jpg

When we share information here we're supposed to be doing our best to provide accurate information. Doing otherwise undermines the value of the technical side of this site. The problem rears it's head when someone posts something that may have some some factual errors, discrepancies, or is just plain opinion. Then when those who are concerned try to clarify or point out errors the other party gets defensive and tempers flare.

I'm not going to try to say it's as simple as that, because I've been here almost as long as Mike and I know who the players are as well. There are some who badly want to be the guru of something. And there are people who have years of experience, or training in a field that will try to correct mistakes or misinformation to preserve the technical value of the forum and don't really appreciate an argument instead of a discussion. I'm also quite aware that we've also been playing together long enough that there are some personal vendettas, cliques and general distaste among a few members. There are also some complaints about how the forum itself has handled a number of situations.

The best I can suggest here is that we all try to remember that we're supposed to be helping each other, and producing the best information we can. There's nothing wrong with offering input as long as a reader can qualify that information. So if you installed an inverter on your boat and want to say "here's what I did" don't make it sound like you've installed hundreds and make a blanket statement about something. If you found a website with information that can help someone by all means share it, but don't C&P it so that it looks like your own. And for Pete's sake, if someone tells you you've made a mistake check and make sure you did not before you answer. I've made errors and typos here. I have no problem with saying oops and fixing it. Bad information makes all your information suspect and does not help the forum. And if you're sure you're right stick to facts.

There's an old saying in law that goes something like; "When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table." We need less pounding of the table here.

[Boatsb]

Hey Scroddy I hear you think you know something about diesel carborators and such.

:)

[Avenger]

I don't know nada about diesel carburetors.

See? It's not hard to admit it if I don't know something. The Admiral gives me lots of practice. :D

[Pascal]

One thing to keep in mind is that these forums are mostly anonymous... When i read a post I usually don't know the person writing it, their background, experience, etc and even if I have met that poster in person it is still no guarantee that he is an "expert". Because someone has been in business for years, doesn't make them experts...

Most of us have seen the handiwork of some of these experts, professionals. Even if only in the boat buying process, how many of us have come across romex wiring, wire nuts, and many other stupid things done by $100 an hour pros? A few years back my genset ingested water... 3 different manufacturer approved mechanic worked on it none of them noticing the lack of antinsyphon loop was the issue. Hey, I m sure if these guys were posting here they d be considered experts... Same with the reputable surveyor and the mechanic of the 69 footer I delivered last week and didn't notice the 2 out of 3 busted clamps on the shaft log hose. Hey, they ve been in business for 20 years, they must be experts...

This is an owners forum, nothing more. Information provided by members shoild be considered anecdotal. We are all owners first although some may have a professional background related to a question. I am reluctant to think of anyone as an expert, except maybe Roger due to his long time involvement at Hatteras.

The only thing I would consider to be fairly "guaranteed", as much as it can be anyway and subject to common sense, would be actual data coming from the manufacturer of the system being discussed. Anything else should be taken with a grain of salt.

[saltshaker]

Very well said Derek. I've been here since Sams first started the forum back in '99. Much has changed over the years and members have come and gone. I do believe we have lost some valuable members over the years. Some have moved on to other interest, others left out of frustration and some left because of the way things were handled when things got out of hand. Some of the most valuable technical members won't post at all or are very reluctant to do so. I would love to see all the personal BS go away and for those members to return.

[Boatsb]

between the PO of my boat and the expurts that work for Angela and pascal I guess thats enoughproof that no one can do it right.

pascal just remember not everyone has complained about the quality of the work they received. too many have complained about the prices they pay but more often the quality is fine. Miami may be different but I know of several professional companies in my area that do great work. One of them was bashed by a member for charging for his travel time but others stood up for him and explained its the cost of getting a good mechanic out to your vessel. You get what you pay for in most cases.

Now please stop bashing the pros who do things like this every day. You have your opinions they have hands on experience. You did it once or twice. They do it all the time.

[Boatnut]

"The only thing I would consider to be fairly "guaranteed", as much as it can be anyway and subject to common sense, would be actual data coming from the manufacturer of the system being discussed. Anything else should be taken with a grain of salt". Quoted by pascal.

pascal I think I'll save the above quote to paste in the next time you tell someone how to do something.

What people seem to forget is the manufacturer has to spec things keeping in mind that people with no knowledge of their product or no knowledge of how it works much less how to install it, are going to install their product. There are other safe, cost effective, and sometimes better ways to do it. The average joe, does not have the knowledge or understanding to be aware of the accepted alternative ways. This appears to be a concept that is foreign to you.

Your tort reply to my statement about wire size being different in an engine room than not in the engine room, shows your inability to listen and learn, you prefer to argue your position. You have been incorrect on several occasions in this forum, and everytime someone questions what you say, you get all testy and defensive. You have never, (unlike several others) appologized nor admitted your mistake.

Just for the heck of it, although it will mean nothing to you as per you above quote. I have been involved with the design of inverters, I currently spec, install, and service inverters larger than any inverter used in any pleasure boat, in the hospital and medical environment.

You state you often do not know the background of people you communicate with on a forum, or even meet in person. How can you say they are either qualified or not, much less question their suggestions.

Sorry for the rant but some things need to be said even at the risk of offending someone.

[Avenger]

I would politely suggest that if one constantly bashes people in the trades they shouldn't be surprised when members who are in the business become hostile in responding.

There are bad actors and mistakes made in every profession but painting with such a broad brush is a disservice to all. We are lucky enough to have a significant knowledge base here with people from many fields and backgrounds that can help out with a lot of things on a much higher level than merely the anecdotal. Alienating them deprives the forum of benefit of that knowledge and we all lose as a result.

[MikeP]

""When the facts are on your side, pound the facts. When the law is on your side, pound the law. When neither is on your side, pound the table.""

I had not heard that...excellent! ;)


BoatsB - It may sound political to "support" both sides but if both sides have some valid points, it seems to me that the smart thing to do is to consider the opposing points, do further research if necessary, and make a decision. But I guess saying that is political as well. :(

I will readily admit that if you have complete confidence in some person's expertise, then you may choose to automatically accept whatever they say on a particular subject. There are certain subjects/people here who I do that with - just take what they say and do it. I don't care to say who they/the subjects are and throw additional gas (or, more likely, nitromethane) on the fire! :)

[Angela]

between the PO of my boat and the expurts that work for Angela and pascal I guess thats enoughproof that no one can do it right.


In an upbeat tone, let me cry out, “Hey, that’s not fair!” :D You make it sound like I don’t believe anyone can do anything right.

I live in Miami, and with the exception of a few idiot AC techs that I’ve weeded through, I have found quality marine folks to work on my boat now. I have a competent AC person who is the owner of the factory here - he’s the sole person I’ve met locally who actually knows this one devil of a modulating AC system I have (which is behaving nicely right now, I have to admit!). I also have an awesome yard guy who will also come to my boat to do some of that heavy lifting work that can be done in the slip which doesn’t create a mess for my neighbors, and he sometimes goes above and beyond what he is asked to do on his own initiative. He never charges me more than he quoted for a job, but when he does something necessary (that “while you’re in there” thing) that I didn’t ask him to do because I didn’t know there was a lurking problem, and for which he doesn’t bill me, I throw a few more Ben Franklins his way because I feel it’s the right thing to do, especially when I see a can of worms opened and think would could have happened “if”.... Heck, his son even fixed a floor hatch in my engine room while waiting for his dad to finish something simply because it bugged him. They are good people.

My DD mechanic - he’s a real gem, and it scares me to think what I’ll do when he retires to North Carolina. I found him on the first pick - someone here recommended him.

So, for the record...I do believe there are folks around here that can and do get it right and I'm comfy with my peeps here. It just took me a little time to find them, that’s all. It’s not like I lived here all my life and knew the who’s who around here. It was more like trial by fire for my air conditioning needs.

Now, I just need a good marine electrician to install my new battery charger and inverter - that’s way over my head to the point that won’t even ask “how to” on that one, and Ed won’t be back to the boat for a little while.

Just wanted to set the record straight since my name was mentioned and didn't want be lumped into a group of "nobody can do it right"...now, carry on... :cool:

[Boatsb]

Expect to pay between $80-100/hour for anyone good. Sometimes more. If you have not bought it yet work with them and tbeymay sunrise you. I charge less to install what I sell than cse.

[JimmyB]

Aside from Angela, have we reached a point to know who has the biggest p###s

[krush]

Funny thing about "experts" is that they are everywhere...and they are even more everywhere and prominent on the internet!

The more words one types, the more knowledgeable he/she obviously is Lulz

[GaryNW]

I wanted to resist this thread, and I tried. But here goes. The experts I have known were people able to torture supposed experts with relentless challenges. I was the project engineer on a Alaska limit seiner in the early 80's. Our buyer was a 28 year old highliner in southeast Ak, a salmon millionare having his 2nd new boat built. Every supplier wanted his business because of his reputation and the advertsing clout. I saw him tear apart the engine supplier, Twin Disc rep, refrigeration guy (best in the area), etc, etc. Always polite, but never accepting the "party line". You had to have the correct explanations or he would make your life hell. Some lost money dealing with this guy because of the redos, but they all learned. Sent us a picture of a 10,000 lb hoist of sockeye in his brailing boom on his first season in Prince William Sound. It was a down year, and he had just spent 275K to buy the permit (on top of a new boat)! Expert fisherman or expert boatman, wild success speaks for itself.
Gary

[34Hatt]

Funny thing about "experts" is that they are everywhere...and they are even more everywhere and prominent on the internet!

The more words one types, the more knowledgeable he/she obviously is Lulz



That is the difference between a Expert and a Expurt!

No those are not typo's

[sportfish 45]

I decided to post this based on the ongoing inverter "discussion."

What makes anyone an expert on anything? Is it years spent doing a particular thing? Is it reading about it? Is it the ability to refer someone to appropriate documents? Is it completing your first installation of an item?

I've been on this site since '04. So I've seen who has come and gone at least since then. For those of you fairly new to the sight, I wouldn't be too concerned about the alleged experts who have allegedly left. I don't see any reduction in the quality of information available on any subject related to these boats. In fact, I'd say the opposite.

One "expert" who used to be here a lot and answered questions with great authority was ASKING the same questions a year prior on the Boat Diesel site. Now, IMO, there's nothing really wrong with that - after all, how do you learn anything without asking questions or just diving in and trying it yourself.

Another "expert" posted his recommendations re painting gained from his "years of experience." Turned out that the entire posting - several paragraphs - were copied/pasted from the paint manufacturer's web site (without any reference to that). So is he an expert? My gut reaction was quite the opposite but OTOH, it WAS good information and if you followed "his" advice, you would be fine.

There has been much made of how installing a lot of whatevers makes a person an expert. True - at installing whatevers. That is not the same as using whatevers. Installing and operating/using something is two different things. If I want to know if inverter X and batteries Y will do what I want, I want to hear from somebody who uses that configuration on a regular basis in real life. That may be a person who can't even change a light bulb but his experience using the system makes him an expert in that aspect. OTOH, if a person makes a living and is an "expert" at let's say, rebuilding Ford motors, would you consider him to rebuild your Chevy motor? If the answer to that is "no" then if you want an Outback inverter installed, you wouldn't want somebody who has never installed an Outback inverter to do it. That approach would seem silly to me but that's just me. Someone else may feel completey different

"Expert" is in the eye of the beholder. But no one should get upset if someone disagrees with their opinion..


Mike your contradicting yourself. You say you don't feel there is anything wrong with a person posting with authority on a topic he was posting questions about on another forum. Then you say if you want info on inverter battery combinations you want to hear from someone who uses it in real life. I don't think there is anything wrong with posting what you know about a topic regardless of how little that might be. I do think you should qualify your information with some description of your experience so as not to miss lead the person seeking advice.

I haven't been here very long but I have taken the time to read through some old threads. I think I know the boat diesel guy your referring to above. That person has very good communication skills so good that someone reading his words could easily be fooled into thinking that he's actually done this for many years. When his bad info was corrected by a real expert who actually does the work and knows what he's talking about to many times communication skills won over the facts. So a well written BS artist ends up gaining the trust of many. A not so well written experienced technician is made to look like he's wrong. So the guy with the good info stops posting and bad information goes UN challenged. That doesn't sound like a winning combination for any forum.

[jim rosenthal]

"Sorry for the rant but some things need to be said even at the risk of offending someone."

No- that's not the case. And for those of you who don't know Mike personally, his original post in this thread was not for political purpose. We have some members whose dislike of other members is so reflexive and knee-jerk that the minute they see a post by someone they've already decided they don't like, they start looking for reasons to bash that post and the member who posted it. This is embarrassing and shameful behavior. Pointing out that there are almost always multiple valid points of view on any topic is not "politics"; it's practical, it's realistic, and it's decent. And simple decency is something that is sadly lacking at times on this forum.

If you want to disagree with someone's point of view, fine. Do so. But don't use it as a point of departure for a personal attack on them, who they are, where they come from, what language they speak, their boating experience, etc. Keep it on topic, keep it civil, and keep it professional. And understand that in boating, like most things in the world, there is virtually always more than one correct way of doing things.

I'll also point out that Hatteras Yachts has built over seven thousand boats, of which better than ninety percent are still out there running around on their own bottoms. Most of these boats have owners, but they are not visible on this forum. We have a few dozen forum members who actively participate- I don't think we have many more than that, if any. And we have a lot of ex-members who found the atmosphere on this forum to be too hostile, too bitter, and just decided not to stick their neck out and risk getting their head chopped off. If this forum was a more civil public space, we'd have more members, we'd have a larger group of contributors, and the overall level of knowledge here would be increased. We've wondered, publicly on several occasions, why more Hatteras owners don't hang out here. Well- as a moderator who's tried to get other Hatteras owners to sign up and contribute their questions and knowledge, I can tell you: a lot of people perceive that this forum is not particularly welcoming to new members, and they don't want to risk getting flamed here. What we have here is not, in their opinion, worth the risk of getting verbally attacked in a public space, and they've told me so. It doesn't make me feel particularly good to hear that.

So: express your opinion, which is what this forum is for. Lend your advice and experience, please. Don't make it personal and don't pick fights, even if something that someone says annoys you. Take a deep breath, let it go by. See to it that this is a polite and welcoming place, and we'll be rewarded with greater participation and a larger group of interested Hatteras owners.

[MikeP]

"Mike your contradicting yourself."

Yes, I know. The problem for me is that my initial feeling is that sounding like you've done something for years when you haven't seems wrong BUT...if the information you are providing is good, what difference does it really make?

I do object to passing off someone else's published info as your own. That's just plagiarism. But good info is good info, wherever it came from. If I explain Relativity correctly (no, that can't actually happen), even if I just memorize Einstein's words and recite them, it's still correct information. I should state that the word's are Einsteins, not mine, but what difference does it actually make. Sort of like the paint "expert" I referred to previously - he copied the info of the paint site; everything he said was correct. I objected highly to the method but I couldn't argue with the information.

[Artzco]

Thanks Jim for expressing so eloquently the 90% of how I feel. I came to this forum while searching for my boat and through it, I found recommendations for boat surveyor and was very satisfied. Using this forum helped in many ways to learn more about Hatteras, DDs and many items in general. After being on this earth for 65 years, I've learned to listen to offered advice and then do my own research or hire qualified (not expert) help when it is beyond my capabilities. I've come to appreciate the humor and banter among members who know each other and when it gets beyond that, I move on to another subject.

Thanks to all who have responded to my questions and allowed me to participate. I look forward to the shared knowledge that Hatt owners have experienced.

[sportfish 45]

"Mike your contradicting yourself."

Yes, I know. The problem for me is that my initial feeling is that sounding like you've done something for years when you haven't seems wrong BUT...if the information you are providing is good, what difference does it really make?

I do object to passing off someone else's published info as your own. That's just plagiarism. But good info is good info, wherever it came from. If I explain Relativity correctly (no, that can't actually happen), even if I just memorize Einstein's words and recite them, it's still correct information. I should state that the word's are Einsteins, not mine, but what difference does it actually make. Sort of like the paint "expert" I referred to previously - he copied the info of the paint site; everything he said was correct. I objected highly to the method but I couldn't argue with the information.

I agree with the above as written. The problem is the information is often not correct becuase there is a big diffrence between reading something and doing it. My point is simple. If you've read about it or maybe done it one time then state that. If your information turns out to be wrong accept it instead of trying to win an argument and forward bad information. I hold the people with real world experience in high regard and hate to see them silenced by very elequint reasearch experts.

[krush]

For every life topic, there are those that know, those that don't, and those that pretend to know. If you truly are interested in learning from those that know, you will often have to put up with some eccentricities. However, it is usually very easy to listen to those that pretend to know.

Internet forums are inherently dominated by those that pretend to know. Often these clowns are posers and plagiarizers, but much like politicians, quite great at winning the "argument". I say argument because that is all they win--the other side (the one that knows) gives up. Many people couldn't care less about being "right"...especially on the internet.

How the owners of a forum choose to address this is what creates the atmosphere. Good, bad, or ugly, this place is what it is. I've even been banned on occasion from this site for exposing truth--funny how bad apples often get positions of power in life. Folks, I've literally seen "expurts" that the less informed people place on a pedestal literally plagiarize and post that vast "knowledge" here, irrespective of the topic--coincidentally, some of these perceived gods of knowledge have been knocked down a peg or two recently. In real life (that's off the internet), these people are usually ignored. Only the internet and a keyboard gives them a voice. It's ok in the end, the internet hates posers.

It may be self-serving to say this, but in I pretty much figured out who knows and go directly to them for knowledge. Sucks to be one of those poor bastards that follows the poser...but the internet, just like real life, is a tough world.


11773

[luckydave215]

I rarely post on this forum anymore, I have no interest in wasting my time arguing with the almighty keyboard warriors over compensating for living in their Mom's basement. I got tired of that in a hurry.
At this stage of a successful career, I sure as hell don't need to win an argument or garner anyone's approval to boost my self image.
Too bad, with 35 years as an Oceanographic Engineer, I have a lot of technical info I could share.

[Boatnut]

Well said Jim. What I find irritating, people will post facts and specifications and yet some will still argue that they are the only one that is right. The problem this creates is the unknowing can not differentiate between the two. The thread about inverters which started this thread, is a fairly complicated technical issue. If someone wants to state their opion, fine say it's your opinion, if you a quoting fact say so, adding a link to your source will help.

I am of the opinion as are too many other people, that correcting mis information on this forum is a waste of time, I find myself again, sorry I tried to help.

[sportfish 45]

I rarely post on this forum anymore, I have no interest in wasting my time arguing with the almighty keyboard warriors over compensating for living in their Mom's basement. I got tired of that in a hurry.
At this stage of a successful career, I sure as hell don't need to win an argument or garner anyone's approval to boost my self image.
Too bad, with 35 years as an Oceanographic Engineer, I have a lot of technical info I could share.



That's what I'm talking about. There used to be guys on here doing big projects and posting almost daily progress reports. They may not have been in the business but they had a technical background well above the average owner. There used to be some in other marine related businesses that brought a whole different prospective to the table. It's still a great forum with a wealth of good information it's just a shame to lose these guys to the Internet warriors and a power drunk moderator of the past.

[jim rosenthal]

I make no pretensions as to being in the marine trades. I am strictly an amateur at any boat work I do, and often I don't know whether I did it well until I see how it holds up over time. My current painting project is a case in point- I will really know how well I did as I see how it endures. It all looks shiny when you put it on. (Of course, with an inverter, if it catches fire as soon as you start it up, I guess that tells you something.)

We should represent ourselves honestly; people who are doing research and presenting it as their own original work are not being truthful. People who are speaking from experience ought to say so, but they ought to quantify their experience in some way as well. For example, I am in the midst of my first Awlgrip job. I am figuring out how much of an authority I am on this, and let me tell you, it ain't much of one at all. If anything, I feel more ignorant as I go along. No one should take advice from me on how to apply Awlgrip, unless they want to know how NOT to do it. On the other hand, I've been asked questions in the past about medical concerns, first aid, etc, and I would fairly hold myself as knowledgeable enough to answer those questions. I do not pretend than any opinion I hold is the final answer to anything.

We need to concentrate- and everyone here is entirely capable of this- on making decent manners a first goal of this forum. This is not enforceable and can't be mandated. It has to be an effort by the group, as a group, to consciously try to keep postings on topic, avoid personal attacks, and to speak honestly and fairly. No amount of policing by Doug, Karl, or myself can ever achieve this. It has to be something we all want, and it can only be achieved by example.

What I hope is this: if we can improve the tone of discussion here, we can possibly attract more people and more expertise onto this forum. I hope we will all see the need for this. As I said, and others have corroborated, we've lost participants whose experience and opinions were valuable because they were ill-treated here. It's time that we made this forum a place that attracts the owners of Hatteras Yachts, not one that discourages them.

[saltshaker]

This has to be one of the best threads I've read here in a long time. It's good to hear so many recognizing the loss of great members and the damage done by mistreating them. Seems we all agree that it's important to qualify the advice given. Most of us know who the true experts are and value their input. I know I regularly call or email those I know that are more experienced than I am. I do most of the work on my boat myself or with the help of a friend but I don't have any where near the experience as some of the guys who do this for a living. For that reason I tend to sit back and read more than post a how to reply unless it's something I've done enough and truly know about. I hope this thread is well read and taken seriously. Maybe if we're lucky some of the members like LuckyDave will come back and contribute. There are plenty that are missed and out of respect I won't mention any names.

[Pascal]

Jim

You are 100% right... Unfortunately some take any discussion personally as soon as you dare having a different opinion, often resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

We can all learn from discussing the various options to address a problem or question. Looking back on the inverter thread there was a lot of good info in there, too bad the tone of the discussion degenerated.

[sportfish 45]

There is no doubt you got slammed first but from that point forward you made a choice to continue the argument and help degenerate the tone. To anyone reading it was obvious that you became more interested in winning the argument than contributing to the thread.

[Boatsb]

But is did stay in a holiday inn express last night.

[Boatnut]

I don't recall anyone saying anybody was wrong. The entire point was there are other solutions, following the manufacturers recommendations is certainly not wrong. Insisting that it is, and statements like I'll do it the manufactures no matter what, only serves to expose your lack of knowledge. Perhaps if one reads the post, and check out all the information presented before disagreeing, you might even learn something.

[GJH]

Thanks Jim for expressing so eloquently the 90% of how I feel. I came to this forum while searching for my boat and through it, I found recommendations for boat surveyor and was very satisfied. Using this forum helped in many ways to learn more about Hatteras, DDs and many items in general. After being on this earth for 65 years, I've learned to listen to offered advice and then do my own research or hire qualified (not expert) help when it is beyond my capabilities. I've come to appreciate the humor and banter among members who know each other and when it gets beyond that, I move on to another subject.

Thanks to all who have responded to my questions and allowed me to participate. I look forward to the shared knowledge that Hatt owners have experienced.

I'll second this. Exactly the right attitude.

I have to say I don't miss some of "The Departed" who seemed to see their volume of contribution as a license to act like 8th grade prima donnas. Their pollution fogged over the value, the Terrell Owens syndrome if you will. Some traces emerge here now and then, but easily passed over for now.

[Freeebird]

Okay, I can't stand it anymore. You're all wrong, and I'm an expurt at being wrong!

[sportfish 45]

I can understand completely why a moderator wants absoloute civility. He has to try to maintain that delicate balance between what's acceptable and what's not. When you consider all the different personalities involved that can't be easy.

I don't understand why a member would take civility over content when you can choose what you read and what you ignore. It's not like you have profanity or some one insulting someone else's mother. You have the typical junk that comes out in an argument. I have to wonder if these folks are really that sensitive or is it a thinly valed attempt to control others?

[Freeebird]

You spelled veiled wrong.

[sportfish 45]

You shud be permantly baned baned 4 being so rood

[bobk]

You spelled veiled wrong.

What ever happened to 'spell check'? I tried to use it once, but maybe I need to become more expert:rolleyes:

Bobk

[Freeebird]

Jest tryin to hep.

[Freeebird]

What ever happened to 'spell check'? I tried to use it once, but maybe I need to become more expert:rolleyes:

BobkWhatever is one word. Even spell chuck won't help with that.

[Jaxfishgyd]

KNEW Randy would have to cave in at some point

[Freeebird]

So, you think you're an expert on me?

[Freeebird]

Hey, I have a question. Is it wrong to take an expert thread off topic when you're an expert at taking threads off topic?

[bigbill]

randy, be careful who you correct about spelling.....your name has too many e's in it

[Passages]

You shud be permantly baned baned 4 being so rood

He was....sort of....but it's hard to keep a good Bird down.

[Passages]

Hey, I have a question. Is it wrong to take an expert thread off topic when you're an expert at taking threads off topic?

We should take a poll.

[Freeebird]

Yeah, with the stipulation that only experts can vote. Then we have to find an expert to post the poll after consulting other experts.

[TROUBLE]

I always thought "Expert" was short for "Experience"

Art

[jim rosenthal]

No, it's short for "formerly cute". As in "ex-pert",,,,,,,

New rule, the Roger Rabbit rule, although it probably should be named after Randy: anything funny is also okay as long as it isn't personal........ :)

[Passages]

The RANDY rule. Too funny.


You know this site was much more entertaining back in 2005-2008. Maybe that's why there's less expert/expurt participation. The truely informed can only advise so many times on why it's not a good idea to put 10w40 in a 2 cycle Detroit before they give up. After that, moments of amusement is what keeps the truely talented coming back and theres been less and less of that. Since 2008 or so, two members with the most viewed threads in HOF history left and began their own forums and took a number of HOFers with them.

Granted, HOF is a business sponsored forum promoting SAMS and to a lesser extent Hatteras Yachts. There have to be limits to the type of threads/posts since it could reflect negatively on corporate interests. Still traffic need to remain high to achieve desired results for all.

So what do you want this site to be? It would be very easy to moderate if we were to eliminate the sandbar and keep everything technical. It would also be dull as watching paint dry and very few would be stopping by.

So what's the answer? I don't know but perhaps a change in moderation would spice things up. Dr Jim and Genesis have been mods for 5 years now. Perhaps the zapper button should be transferred to some fresh faces. I mean no disrespect to Jim or Karl, on the contrary - moderating can be tough and any decision you make going to PO someone. Our current have done a lot but perhaps it's time to pass the torch.

With that in mind I'd like to nominate MiKeP as mod for the Tech Section, YachtmanBill for Boats for sale: Angela for a new section called Living Aboard; and Freebird with one "e" as master zapper extrodinare of the Sandbar.

I sense a poll coming on.

[Avenger]

and Freebird with one "e" as master zapper extrodinare of the Sandbar.

I sense a poll coming on.

Don't you mean "pole?" And I think it's heading for the back of your head.

Making Randy a moderator............ what were you thinking? :D

[Passages]

Don't you mean "pole?" And I think it's heading for the back of your head.

Making Randy a moderator............ what were you thinking? :D

Sure would make the place more entertaining doncha think?

[sportfish 45]

The RANDY rule. Too funny.


You know this site was much more entertaining back in 2005-2008. Maybe that's why there's less expert/expurt participation. The truely informed can only advise so many times on why it's not a good idea to put 10w40 in a 2 cycle Detroit before they give up. After that, moments of amusement is what keeps the truely talented coming back and theres been less and less of that. Since 2008 or so, two members with the most viewed threads in HOF history left and began their own forums and took a number of HOFers with them.

Granted, HOF is a business sponsored forum promoting SAMS and to a lesser extent Hatteras Yachts. There have to be limits to the type of threads/posts since it could reflect negatively on corporate interests. Still traffic need to remain high to achieve desired results for all.

So what do you want this site to be? It would be very easy to moderate if we were to eliminate the sandbar and keep everything technical. It would also be dull as watching paint dry and very few would be stopping by.

So what's the answer? I don't know but perhaps a change in moderation would spice things up. Dr Jim and Genesis have been mods for 5 years now. Perhaps the zapper button should be transferred to some fresh faces. I mean no disrespect to Jim or Karl, on the contrary - moderating can be tough and any decision you make going to PO someone. Our current have done a lot but perhaps it's time to pass the torch.

With that in mind I'd like to nominate MiKeP as mod for the Tech Section, YachtmanBill for Boats for sale: Angela for a new section called Living Aboard; and Freebird with one "e" as master zapper extrodinare of the Sandbar.

I sense a poll coming on.


I think your half right. Mr Rosenthal IMO does a good job. Genisis OTOH has done more damage than you would think possible by one person. That whole "Forum Guidelines" thread should be erased from the history. What took place there is nothing short of disgraceful.

[Avenger]

Sure would make the place more entertaining doncha think?

The mind boggles at the prospect.........:rolleyes:

[geofish]

I like this place.

I showed up as a new owner of a used Hatt C about a year ago and searched for info and found it. I asked some questions and got good answers. I didn't post very much but when I did my questions seemed to be always well received and answered, thanks to all who contributed as I was able to make some decisions with a lot more confidence than I would have without you.

I know my post count is low but that does not mean that I don't visit much because I do it's just I don't have that much to say, I try to help answer questions if I feel that I know what I'm talking about and won't give someone a bum steer.

I really didn't like this thread at all, if it was the first one I read when coming here it would have left a bad impression. Now that I have been here a while and have enjoyed much I'm not going to react one way or the other but I am a bit dissapointed.

I would love to read some more posts about day trips, weekend trips or hearing just how nice of a weekend you had just sitting on your boat that you worked so hard to own and enjoy.

Become experts on how to post about great weekends!

Best wishes to all,
George

[MikeP]

" I asked some questions and got good answers. "

Where?

Here?

You're kidding!


:)

I am on a few other sites where people seem to literally start out being abusive. One site, dedicated to shooting/reloading degenerated in 3 posts to name calling when two guys disagreed on the "best" powder to use for .45 Colt reloads.

In comparison, this forum is like Sunday School (Do they still have that anymore?) This is a great site for old Hatt owners despite the occasional track-jump that may occur. Don't hesitate to join in!

[Artzco]

I like this place.

I showed up as a new owner of a used Hatt C about a year ago and searched for info and found it. I asked some questions and got good answers. I didn't post very much but when I did my questions seemed to be always well received and answered, thanks to all who contributed as I was able to make some decisions with a lot more confidence than I would have without you.

I know my post count is low but that does not mean that I don't visit much because I do it's just I don't have that much to say, I try to help answer questions if I feel that I know what I'm talking about and won't give someone a bum steer.

I really didn't like this thread at all, if it was the first one I read when coming here it would have left a bad impression. Now that I have been here a while and have enjoyed much I'm not going to react one way or the other but I am a bit dissapointed.

I would love to read some more posts about day trips, weekend trips or hearing just how nice of a weekend you had just sitting on your boat that you worked so hard to own and enjoy.

Become experts on how to post about great weekends!

Best wishes to all,
George

Well said George...

[Freeebird]

I like this place.

I showed up as a new owner of a used Hatt C about a year ago and searched for info and found it. I asked some questions and got good answers. I didn't post very much but when I did my questions seemed to be always well received and answered, thanks to all who contributed as I was able to make some decisions with a lot more confidence than I would have without you.

I know my post count is low but that does not mean that I don't visit much because I do it's just I don't have that much to say, I try to help answer questions if I feel that I know what I'm talking about and won't give someone a bum steer.

I really didn't like this thread at all, if it was the first one I read when coming here it would have left a bad impression. Now that I have been here a while and have enjoyed much I'm not going to react one way or the other but I am a bit dissapointed.

I would love to read some more posts about day trips, weekend trips or hearing just how nice of a weekend you had just sitting on your boat that you worked so hard to own and enjoy.

Become experts on how to post about great weekends!

Best wishes to all,
GeorgeIf you had signed up here six years ago like I did, you would be out of luck where cruising threads were concerned. They were viewed as unacceptable as was talking to other members about "nice weekends" etc. Thankfully that's no longer the case.

As for the topic at hand, some things never change. This forum is no different than any other when it comes to "experts". Stick around long enough and you'll figure out who knows what they are talking about.

[the kuz]

I check this site everyday and get something of value almost every day. I don't mind some good natured ribbing and agree with Mike that you can learn something by looking at any issue/subject from different perspectives. Often there is more than one "right" answer to how to fix/do something. I have a socialist friend who I agree with on almost nothing, but at least he can clearly explain what the world looks like from his point of view and I "learn" where he is coming from and sometimes even see some form of value in something I think is "totally wrong". I don't post much, and don't consider myself to be an expert on Hatt topics, but I have tried to pass on things that have worked OK for me and sometimes have learned that not only was it "wrong" but actually dangerous or could result in a "maintenance induced problem" downstream. I have never taken offense at being "corrected" even if sometimes I might not agree. Personally I don't see anything wrong with letting others know what we have attempted and the feedback that follows is a way of learning.

So the back and forth on different ways of doing/fixing things on our boats is valuable to all of us if for no other reason than to let us learn from someone else's mistakes. Could not agree more with Jim that we should be civil, but also most of the humor has been perfectly OK with me.

My 2 cents. Best Regards, Bob K

[sportfish 45]

I have an idea. Again I think Mr Rosenthal does the difficult job of moderating very well. I think the best moderator would be one who is not known to anyone a man behind the curtain without a personality. One who never contributes but only monitors and steps in as needed. Of course it could be a member just Un identified as a moderator. That way there is no one to be mad at or wonder did he do or not do that because he likes or agrees with someone or doesn't.

[saltshaker]

I have an idea. Again I think Mr Rosenthal does the difficult job of moderating very well. I think the best moderator would be one who is not known to anyone a man behind the curtain without a personality. One who never contributes but only monitors and steps in as needed. Of course it could be a member just Un identified as a moderator. That way there is no one to be mad at or wonder did he do or not do that because he likes or agrees with someone or doesn't.
I'm not sure that would work. That would only hide the moderator's identity, it wouldn't change his/her thoughts or bias. A good moderator needs to be fair and impartial regardless of their personal views. Moderating needs to be based solely on forum guidelines. I don't think the moderating on this site has been an issue lately. There was a time when things got out of hand with inappropriate language and post. Then the moderating went way overboard. Too many post were zapped and members were banned, some justly but many unjustly. If we want this site to improve we need to get past this and move things forward. We've lost valuable members and potential new ones from our past actions. I think it's time to put it to rest and move forward. If we can do this maybe some will return and this site can be what most of us want it to be.

[sportfish 45]

Bias is always perception and perception is often wrong. Your right being anonymous doesn't change a persons own bias if they have one. But the perception of bias would be largely eliminated with a ghost moderator who's not contributing or befriending anyone. It would be a new beginning eliminating the past moderator you mention who caused so many problems. That may very well bring some back into the discussion.

[saltshaker]

Bias is always perception and perception is often wrong. Your right being anonymous doesn't change a persons own bias if they have one. But the perception of bias would be largely eliminated with a ghost moderator who's not contributing or befriending anyone. It would be a new beginning eliminating the past moderator you mention who caused so many problems. That may very well bring some back into the discussion.
It could work but how do you get a moderator to volunteer but not participate in the forum discussions? Moderating shouldn't be needed unless things get out of hand. I think we're all smart enough that we should be able to moderate ourselves. When we aren't that's when a moderator should step in. Simple self control by the members and moderators is all we really need.

[sportfish 45]

Well sure but with a forum this size a moderator is needed sometime. It could be someone who is a member and contributes but no one knows it. We might be looking at this diffrently. I think this site is currently being moderated properly. The problem is that even with a good moderator it seems like there is always some one that feels they're being picked on and a new discussion gets started about the moderator. It's hard to get mad at a ghost or acuse him of limiting one person and not another because he might be friends with him. So I think it would make things easier for the moderator and eliminate some arguments but it won't necassarily lead to better moderation which IMO isn't necassary anyway.

[captddis]

Could I nominate soon to be ex president Obama for moderator?

[Boatsb]

I've seen forums that don't use much moderation in fact most of the moderators have never spoken up.

Its the self proclaimed experts that get upset about being challenged by the real ones.

[LUV'N LIFE]

Its the self proclaimed experts that get upset about being challenged by the real ones.
Scott, We get it. You consider yourself one of the experts. Lord knows you remind us enough. This thread was settling down and you had to throw another jab. Let it go.
I came to this site on the recommendation of a Broker. My 47 Atlantic was designed by Jack Hargrave for Atlantic based on his series 1 48 Hatteras. This site has been an invaluable wealth of information, and Sams has proved to be a great help. It is frustrating at times to be following a thread which is enlightening only to have it deteriorate because someones ego gets bruised.

[krush]

I consider Scott an expert. He knows his stuff and has been very helpful to me in the past. He doesn't regurgitate from wikipedia or a manual either.

[yachtsmanbill]

Is it time to come out of lurking mode? Howz come boats for sale for me?? I wanna be the spelling and grammaw moderator! I know for a fact that no longer being a Hatteras owner carries no weight. OOPS... cats' outa the bag. http://i54.tinypic.com/2cp3og9.jpg ws

[Canuck Dennis]

Now there is an expert that is missed, very knowledgeable individual.

[Boatnut]

As long as the rudest, and most offensive person I have ever encountered in any forum regardless of subject content, remains a moderator on this forum, I can't see how you will ever get the most knowledeable people to come back wholeheartedly.

There is a lot of truth in what my Dad taught me, "You do not have to like someone to learn from them".

There is another saying that I do not know the author of but it goes something like; People will forget what you said to them, they will forgive what you did to them, but they will never forget how you made them feel.

I wish I had an answer to this delema, my only suggestion would be a couple of moderators that are just that, moderators, not contributors. The moderators need not be involved in technical discussions nor verify the accuracy of the content, they should be there to keep things civil.

In the past on too many occasions posts were deleted, threads closed or moved (at the whim of the moderator when someone disagree with the moderator), and people banned, merely because a moderator did not agree with them. Thankfully these things seemed to have stopped. Confidence needs to rebuilt in the forum to gain trust that such unfair treatment does nor recurr.

[sportfish 45]

Now there is an expert that is missed, very knowledgeable individual.

Yes how true. I read through the old threads a while ago and couldn't remember the name he was one of the guys I was referring to as lost. The idea that's it's ok to lose his input in the interest of absolute civility and perfect manners is just beyond my comprehension.

[saltshaker]

I was reading an old thread last night. I was amazed at how many of the post were from members who no longer post here. Not just the obvious ones either. Many who have just gone away quietly.

[MikeP]

People leave forums because they are no longer interested in participating for any number of reasons. Maybe they have exhausted whatever input or "output" they wanted, maybe they are no longer interested in the hobby/subject, or perhaps they are upset because someone routinely disagrees with them.

Most of the questions asked here have been answered, often many times, in the past. Some people quit participating because they have "seen it all" and don't care to go through it again. Their reaction to many of the questions, at least mentally, is "Geez, do a search!"

I don't personally believe that there has been any more than the usual coming and going that occurs on a forum. I am on 5-6 other forums and even on those that generally never get into name-calling or internet "fights," people come and people go. I don't think that disagreements cause most "leavings," though I'm sure it happens occasionally.

I think the moderators do a good job here, walking the line quite well.

[madhatter1]

This place is gold compared to RV forums. I have a big 5th wheel camper and found a forum on toy haulers (camper with garage area). I did find a lot of helpful information in this section. Then on the main site there is a section on tow vehicles. God forbid you post a question about your brand of truck. By page 2 it is already a Dodge vs Ford vs Chevy vs Tundra (apparently they can tow anything) vs gas vs Diesel vs 1500/2500/3500/4500 vs dually vs long bed vs short bed vs 2wd vs 4wd. Nice one is a gas vs Diesel sticky. I am an expurt thare! Gotta go to Egmont now.

[Boatnut]

People leave forums because they are no longer interested in participating for any number of reasons. Maybe they have exhausted whatever input or "output" they wanted, maybe they are no longer interested in the hobby/subject, or perhaps they are upset because someone routinely disagrees with them.

Most of the questions asked here have been answered, often many times, in the past. Some people quit participating because they have "seen it all" and don't care to go through it again. Their reaction to many of the questions, at least mentally, is "Geez, do a search!"

I don't personally believe that there has been any more than the usual coming and going that occurs on a forum. I am on 5-6 other forums and even on those that generally never get into name-calling or internet "fights," people come and people go. I don't think that disagreements cause most "leavings," though I'm sure it happens occasionally.

I think the moderators do a good job here, walking the line quite well.

I have no idea what other forums you are active on, but I can find most all of the lost experienced people on other forums. Obviously they have not left for most of reasons you give.

[krush]

This threadis really good, but man we're knee deep in...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XTVwaCEusJk/T-_FzRC3FpI/AAAAAAAAFWw/Oq7Yijxh0tQ/s640/IMG_1346.JPG

And left high-n-dry! (took these pics yesterday BTW)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gxyHmg0-Mxo/T-_Fz6MacJI/AAAAAAAAFW4/3nE7XJ6xsdA/s640/IMG_1347.JPG

[krush]

I have no idea what other forums you are active on, but I can find most all of the lost experienced people on other forums. Obviously they have not left for most of reasons you give.

I hardly ever ask questions on HOF (this place) anymore because I just go straight to those that do...which amazingly have congregated together other places on the internet. I hardly think this is a coincidence.

But I'm just stating my observations and possible causation. Everybody here can go "good riddance" and "who cares?" and that's perfectly fine. But I think that is really freakn' STUPID when the causes of the mass departure is very obvious.

Kinda sad, but human nature is human nature. Civilizations rise and civilizations fall. We pay taxes,grow older, pay more taxes, then die--and pay even more taxes. At least we can all laugh at the internet experts together.

Now I'm off to go boating with those that want to get out on the water.

[sportfish 45]

People leave forums because they are no longer interested in participating for any number of reasons. Maybe they have exhausted whatever input or "output" they wanted, maybe they are no longer interested in the hobby/subject, or perhaps they are upset because someone routinely disagrees with them.

Most of the questions asked here have been answered, often many times, in the past. Some people quit participating because they have "seen it all" and don't care to go through it again. Their reaction to many of the questions, at least mentally, is "Geez, do a search!"

I don't personally believe that there has been any more than the usual coming and going that occurs on a forum. I am on 5-6 other forums and even on those that generally never get into name-calling or internet "fights," people come and people go. I don't think that disagreements cause most "leavings," though I'm sure it happens occasionally.

I think the moderators do a good job here, walking the line quite well.


Well there is really only one moderator who's moderating right now and I agree it's being done very well. Mike your absolutely right people do come and go for a whole bunch of reasons. This is a little different. What Boatnut is saying is hard to argue with. When I first asked this question a while ago I got a PM from a member who no longer posts. He directed me to the thread I mentioned earlier. If you read it and see what happened and look at the posting history of some that were treated badly you can see that it was a turning point. The way some frequent posters were treated then I don't blame them at all for calling it quits. The sad part is it was all UN necessary had it been handled correctly by the moderator at that time it all could have been avoided.

[saltshaker]

This threadis really good, but man we're knee deep in...

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-XTVwaCEusJk/T-_FzRC3FpI/AAAAAAAAFWw/Oq7Yijxh0tQ/s640/IMG_1346.JPG

And left high-n-dry! (took these pics yesterday BTW)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gxyHmg0-Mxo/T-_Fz6MacJI/AAAAAAAAFW4/3nE7XJ6xsdA/s640/IMG_1347.JPG
Gotta watch out for those freshwater tides! Who'd a thought you needed to pay attention to the tide when you're 150 miles from the ocean.

[hyperfishing]

Well I disagreed rather strongly with the moderator on aluminum boats in saltwater, then offered to help him paint his fiberglass Hat. His problem that he worked on the weekend I was available. Now he is REALLY ticked at me. <gg>

[MikeP]

"I have no idea what other forums you are active on, but I can find most all of the lost experienced people on other forums. Obviously they have not left for most of reasons you give."

Well, if they left because they felt crushed by a moderator, I'm sorry that happened. If they left for the "I'm an expert and somebody disagreed with me, wah, wah, wah" reason, I'm not.

[wsdemmer]

I have learned a lot from this forum. I search, read, ask questions and always balance the answers with other info that I gather. I am an amateur at boat maintenance but I learn quickly. I have learned who to listen to more than others but always analyze everyone's answers. I have noticed a few members postings are negative in their comments and sometimes border on attacks. I still am a fan of the forum because many of the members truly want to help; expert, expurt or not. I think it is up to the individual to accept or reject the info that is given. I try to ignore the negative posters and learn as much as I can.

[Boatsb]

"I have no idea what other forums you are active on, but I can find most all of the lost experienced people on other forums. Obviously they have not left for most of reasons you give."

Well, if they left because they felt crushed by a moderator, I'm sorry that happened. If they left for the "I'm an expert and somebody disagreed with me, wah, wah, wah" reason, I'm not.

they left because the got sick and tired of hearing all the self proclaimed expurts tell people what they want to hear in order to get accolades and ignore the facts brought in by the people who do it daily for a living.

How many times have some of the expurts posted their tried and true methods of how to do something then we find out they did it once or maybe never but heard about it or watched it done.

[Passages]

I've been a member since 2003 and at one time (up till 2008 or so) was a prolific poster. Now, I will ocassionally chime in on the sandbar but rarely on the tech side.

Short reason - The questions have mostly been covered in prior threads and many are too lazy to use the search function. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me but I'm at a point in my life where I no longer care to argue.

Case in point - there is an active thread about That Hatterass Smell. eg - methods to manage foul bilge water odor. I could chime into that thread but I choose not to. First - it's aready been discussed to death. Second, even though I know a thing or 2 about the subject (I have a Masters degree in Environmental Engineering and 20 years experience in wastewater treatment) I just don't care to get into a pissing contest. Not worth it especially when the answer is already out there.

Maybe I'm just getting older and have lost that fighting spirit...

btw...the best fix for That Hatterass Smell is NOT bleach or other Hypochlorite potions. Look it up.

[captddis]

Same here Jim. Someone ask's a question you tell them what is wrong then half a dozen others give the wrong answer or say call so and so. If you do not have the answer why post?

As far as moderators go, I see no need for any. Yes the pissing matches come up but after a few days they run the course and die. I left school over three decades and really don't need anyone to tell me what to say or act.

Doug has stated that he wants an antiseptic sedate forum, I visit and read and respond when I want then hang out at the Flybridge where there is no censorship and anything can be discussed.
Why try to change a forum that does not want change, instead find a forum that fits.

[Boatnut]

Well said Dave, and there aren't the peeing contests like there are here.

[MikeP]

Yes, it is an excellent point - why should a person stay on a forum if it just makes that person feel annoyed? If there are forums that serve the purpose better - whether it's about gaining information or feeling appropriately appreciated - that's a better place to be.

[jim rosenthal]

Just got power back late last evening after two days of no juice. Very glad to have AC back, now I can go work on my boat and sweat my a-s off.

This project will drag on long enough for anyone who wants to help to stop by and lend a hand, or just sidewalk-supervise.....back on it today.

I appreciate the contributions to this thread. I think disagreements are useful and healthy for any forum. But I think the personal stuff needs to be left out- it isn't useful and it just makes people afraid to go in the room.

[MikeP]

You should set up a Pascal-type web cam so we can offer valuable expert opinion without actually having to be there! ;)

[Nonchalant1]

I used to just spurt out ideas, but I stopped. Now I'm an ex-spurt.

[MikeP]

LOL, good one! :)

[luckydave215]

I'm an expert on everything. Just ask me :confused: