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RT46
09-26-2011, 09:38 PM
I saw this on ebay...."Detroit Diesel Ether"

I thought Ether was a big NO-NO....

Thankfully I dont need ether to start my DD's.

It is my understanding that it is a very bad thing to start any diesel that YOU own and plan on keeping around with ether....

I have seen it done on a bus with a 60 series that sounded awful when it kicked over with the ether. I have also seen break free used to start an old inline Cummins.

check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Detroit-Diesel-Ether-Cylinder-21OZ-23517257-Case-Of12-/290479662445?pt=Other_Vehicle_Parts&hash=item43a1efe56d

TopHattandTails
09-26-2011, 09:42 PM
I've heard that called "Mechanic in a bottle".

captddis
09-26-2011, 09:58 PM
When I worked in CT and would go to pick up stragglers boats in December, I always had a can of either with me.

krush
09-27-2011, 12:35 AM
Gas in a squirt bottle works too

MikeP
09-27-2011, 07:09 AM
I have heard the stories but I can't see how it could hurt anything. But if there is a need for ether to start an engine, then there is a problem that should be addressed. I suspect that the idea that ether is bad is based more on the continuing starting/operation of an engine that needs work that wouldn't have started at all without the ether. Then the ether is blamed for causing a problem down the road. But WHY was the ether needed in the first place?

captddis
09-27-2011, 07:12 AM
I have heard the stories but I can't see how it could hurt anything. But if there is a need for ether to start an engine, then there is a problem that should be addressed. I suspect that the idea that ether is bad is based more on the continuing starting/operation of an engine that needs work that wouldn't have started at all without the ether. Then the ether is blamed for causing a problem down the road. But WHY was the ether needed in the first place?

Yes there was something wrong. It was Freezing cold.

MikeP
09-27-2011, 07:23 AM
I didn't see any reference to freezing temperatures in the post. I was under the impression the comment was just about the general use of ether for engines that were difficult to start.

I have started the DDs on our boat in temps down to about 30F and they start just fine though they will hunt for a bit after starting. I don't know about temps lower than that but I think the main issue with low temps is the oil; cold straight 40 wt is a mighty heavy load on a starter and the starting RPM drops.

captddis
09-27-2011, 07:27 AM
I thought the "stragglers in December" might have conveyed that it was cold. Often with ice on the docks.

Fanfare
09-27-2011, 07:39 AM
Don't know about ether and Detroits, but once I was trying to start a balky '65 tri-power Pontiac GTO with ether. Crank, crank, crank, BAHWOOM!!! as my nice new stainless muffler exploded, blowing its back plate apart. That would be some fun on a Hatt I can tell you with those big exhausts.

34Hatt
09-27-2011, 08:35 AM
The thing is you don't go shooting it down the air intake! All you need is a little in the air nearby and its fine!

This is another one of those things some over do and do it wrong and it becomes Don't use That!

And Yes most times it is cold in December. Specially last year hoping for a change this year like more Global warming!

Boatnut
09-27-2011, 09:31 AM
It never ceases to amaze me how the internet experts and dock captains always seem to know more than the guys that work on boats for a living. More and more people that actually know what they are talking about are offering help lately, can't blame them for that. It has come down to a point where the amatuers know more than the professionals. Kind of like our screwed up government these days.

MikeP
09-27-2011, 09:56 AM
"It never ceases to amaze me how the internet experts and dock captains always seem to know more than the guys that work on boats for a living."

So what do the guys who work on DDs for a living say? I have seen "professionals" (at least they showed up in truck with some sort of logo on the side) ;) shooting ether into DDs to start them. I suspect you will get the same divergent opinion from people who do it for a living. We certainly saw similar divergence in the professional engine building world - many pro shops do use almost the opposite methods for the same thing. Engine break-in oil is a really good example. Some shops say NEVER use synthetic for break in because it won't seal the rings; others say to use synthetic from the first time the motor spins because it provides superior protection and ring sealing is a function of proper machining in the first place.

whaler23
09-27-2011, 10:03 AM
here's a video explanation, and I agree when I worked on a farm as a kid, we used ether frequently in the winter. Explanation starts around 1:50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w9U4CTXUss&feature=related

captddis
09-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Obviously you don't use ether on engines with glow pulgs. However I have never seen or heard of any damage to a diesel as long as the engine is rolling over while you give it a shot of ether. Some use WD 40 as it provides some lubricant.

Since DD sold ether injection systems, they must have been OK with using ether when needed.

captddis
09-27-2011, 04:02 PM
MikeP,
What are your thoughts on using synthetic oil for break in since you built engines for Motion?

Boatsb
09-27-2011, 04:44 PM
I think ether is too often misused and that could be why there may be damage. Someone may load up the intake before cranking the engine and leave a half a can in a cylinder causing something bad to happen.

Years ago JVC and Panasonic put stickers on their broadcast line of equipment that said "for professional use only" to stop the warranty problems and lawsuits from people who broke them because they did not know how to properly use them.

SKYCHENEY
09-27-2011, 08:07 PM
Once owned a bus with an 8v92TA. It had ether injection system on it and it worked well in the winter when I forget to turn on the block heater.

I also used it often on Detroits and Cummins at our concrete plant in the winter. No problems and it saved alot of starters and batteries.

RT46
09-27-2011, 10:00 PM
My J&T 617 TIB's have block heaters. i use the heaters when the ER temp gets below 70'. never a problem starting, even without heaters when it gets into the 30's when there is only 30A available


it is interesting to see how many people use ether....
i have never used it in a diesel that i owned and had to pay for a rebuild

Trojan
09-27-2011, 10:05 PM
All my diesel farm tractors have ether canisters that are activated with a button in the cab. Only use them in the winter. Just don't get carried away.

BILL

Trojan
09-27-2011, 10:07 PM
All my diesel farm tractors have ether canisters that are activated with a button in the cab. Only use them in the winter. Just don't get carried away. Make sure the engine is rolling before you use ether.

BILL

MikeP
09-27-2011, 10:30 PM
We used only synthetic (Mobil 1). The break in period was about 10 minutes on the dyno or 6 runs at the drag strip at increasing throttle/RPM on each pull on the dyno or run on the strip. Engines went to customers with the ability to be run at maximum power immediately, whether they were built as race motors or street motors.

Proper cylinder wall preparation is the key to power and rapid (almost immediate) break-in when coupled with the dyno pulls/track runs. Many production cars now come with syn oil as the factory fill. Clearly the factories know that syns do a better job in every way compared to dino oils.

jim rosenthal
09-27-2011, 10:55 PM
Yes, and one of these days the marine spec engines will (surprise!!!) get approval for synthetic oils... decades after everyone else. Imagine that.

Avenger
09-28-2011, 10:21 AM
I forgot to bring the camera today, but I've got two pistons that had the ring lands blown off by ether. One was from a Yanmar that had maybe 50 hrs on it. Obviously this was from somebody doing something really stupid. That being said, I've used ether on a few occasions and never broke an engine. Just like firearms, motor vehicles, explosives and heavy equipment... it's all pretty safe if you follow proper procedure.

MikeP
09-28-2011, 04:31 PM
The DD V71 "Operations Manual," page 40, shows two optional cold weather starting aids, one of which is a "fluid starting aid" that mounts on the engine and accepts cartridges of ether, the contents of which are pumped into the engine for starting. So the idea that ether should never be used (at least in DDs)is clearly contradicted by DDs own published info.

captddis
09-28-2011, 10:43 PM
We used only synthetic (Mobil 1). The break in period was about 10 minutes on the dyno or 6 runs at the drag strip at increasing throttle/RPM on each pull on the dyno or run on the strip. Engines went to customers with the ability to be run at maximum power immediately, whether they were built as race motors or street motors.

Proper cylinder wall preparation is the key to power and rapid (almost immediate) break-in when coupled with the dyno pulls/track runs. Many production cars now come with syn oil as the factory fill. Clearly the factories know that syns do a better job in every way compared to dino oils.

By "proper" cylinder wall prep, what did you do differently from a standard cylinder boring?

Boatnut
09-28-2011, 11:18 PM
IMO,this is a silly arguement, of course custom built engines, will run in quicker. Thats simply a function of machining and asembly. You can not compare cusom built engines to production engines, nor can you compare the cost of such engines.

Ether has been used for decades successfully when used correctly, use too much and bam goes the engine.

By "proper" cylinder wall prep, what did you do differently from a standard cylinder boring?

Precision boring, the closer the cylander is to perfectly round the faster the rings seat in. Not to mention quality of parts being used. Remember Dave the engines Mike is refferring to also have a short life expectancy. 6 trips down the 1/4 mile is close to an entire drag meet, then the engine is torn down and gone through.

dsharp
09-29-2011, 12:13 AM
Used moderately ether has a place onboard or the toolbox. It comes in handy when you get air in the fuel system and you are about to run out of battery. A short whiff can get you going. I've done more damage hitting a starter button with low batteries then the disc in the starter solenoid welds itself to the posts. It gets exciting getting to the battery disconnect.

MikeP
09-29-2011, 07:22 AM
Cylinder wall prep means the bore finish is specific for the type of rings used (chrome, cast, moly, etc) and the boring/final finish is done with torque plates and, even better with the block heated and with torque plates. The finish is normally very smooth compared to what you get with standard tool that most people think of for honing cyl bores - either the brush-type or the three-stone tools that are run up/down the cyl with a drill. In fact, most people would call the cyl wall "very smooth."

I'm not referring to just drag race only motors. The dyno or strip break-in was exactly the same for a street motor expected to run as long (longer, actually) than a production motor.

I don't wish to get into arguments about break-in for production engines but I have personally always used essentially the same break-in procedure on a new, off the showroom car, though it's a bit difficult if you don't have a handy dragstrip or dyno because you are limited in the power you can apply legally on the road due to the speeds you will reach. A nice steep uphill section is helpful... ;)

Below is the the engine break-in that we used (also recommended by Mopar at the time for competition/performance motors) for dyno, track, or street. Obviously, even ignoring speed limits, the street severely limits what you can actually do unless you are out in someplace like AZ, NV, etc... Dyno has to be a real dyno that can load the engine, not one of those Dynojets you often see at car/bike meets/shows:

1. Full throttle through gears up to 1/3 max RPM, release throttle, engine coasts down in gear to idle/minimum workable RPM

2. Full throttle up to 1/2 Max RPM, then same as #1

3. Full throttle up to 2/3 max RPM, then same as #1

4. Full throttle up to 3/4 max RPM, then same as #1

5. Full throttle to red line, same as #1

6. Same as 5.

Done.

Capt K
09-29-2011, 07:48 PM
The thing is you don't go shooting it down the air intake! All you need is a little in the air nearby and its fine!

This is another one of those things some over do and do it wrong and it becomes Don't use That!

And Yes most times it is cold in December. Specially last year hoping for a change this year like more Global warming!
Well Dan, at least you're Down South, compared to me so last winter was little milder for you. Yu should have seen how bad it was Up North by us. Didn't need to run the ice maker! :-)

captddis
09-29-2011, 08:14 PM
Cylinder wall prep means the bore finish is specific for the type of rings used (chrome, cast, moly, etc) and the boring/final finish is done with torque plates and, even better with the block heated and with torque plates. The finish is normally very smooth compared to what you get with standard tool that most people think of for honing cyl bores - either the brush-type or the three-stone tools that are run up/down the cyl with a drill. In fact, most people would call the cyl wall "very smooth."

I'm not referring to just drag race only motors. The dyno or strip break-in was exactly the same for a street motor expected to run as long (longer, actually) than a production motor.

I don't wish to get into arguments about break-in for production engines but I have personally always used essentially the same break-in procedure on a new, off the showroom car, though it's a bit difficult if you don't have a handy dragstrip or dyno because you are limited in the power you can apply legally on the road due to the speeds you will reach. A nice steep uphill section is helpful... ;)

Below is the the engine break-in that we used (also recommended by Mopar at the time for competition/performance motors) for dyno, track, or street. Obviously, even ignoring speed limits, the street severely limits what you can actually do unless you are out in someplace like AZ, NV, etc... Dyno has to be a real dyno that can load the engine, not one of those Dynojets you often see at car/bike meets/shows:

1. Full throttle through gears up to 1/3 max RPM, release throttle, engine coasts down in gear to idle/minimum workable RPM

2. Full throttle up to 1/2 Max RPM, then same as #1

3. Full throttle up to 2/3 max RPM, then same as #1

4. Full throttle up to 3/4 max RPM, then same as #1

5. Full throttle to red line, same as #1

6. Same as 5.

Done.

Thanks for the info... interesting.

Kiwipushrod
09-29-2011, 10:33 PM
Cylinder wall prep means the bore finish is specific for the type of rings used (chrome, cast, moly, etc) and the boring/final finish is done with torque plates and, even better with the block heated and with torque plates. The finish is normally very smooth compared to what you get with standard tool that most people think of for honing cyl bores - either the brush-type or the three-stone tools that are run up/down the cyl with a drill. In fact, most people would call the cyl wall "very smooth."

I'm not referring to just drag race only motors. The dyno or strip break-in was exactly the same for a street motor expected to run as long (longer, actually) than a production motor.

I don't wish to get into arguments about break-in for production engines but I have personally always used essentially the same break-in procedure on a new, off the showroom car, though it's a bit difficult if you don't have a handy dragstrip or dyno because you are limited in the power you can apply legally on the road due to the speeds you will reach. A nice steep uphill section is helpful... ;)

Below is the the engine break-in that we used (also recommended by Mopar at the time for competition/performance motors) for dyno, track, or street. Obviously, even ignoring speed limits, the street severely limits what you can actually do unless you are out in someplace like AZ, NV, etc... Dyno has to be a real dyno that can load the engine, not one of those Dynojets you often see at car/bike meets/shows:

1. Full throttle through gears up to 1/3 max RPM, release throttle, engine coasts down in gear to idle/minimum workable RPM

2. Full throttle up to 1/2 Max RPM, then same as #1

3. Full throttle up to 2/3 max RPM, then same as #1

4. Full throttle up to 3/4 max RPM, then same as #1

5. Full throttle to red line, same as #1

6. Same as 5.

Done.


What are you even talking about? If I read Your post and did'nt know better I would think that YOU used some magic cnc hone method, to achieve the final crosshatch, after YOU ran the boring bar thru the cylinder.

A stone was used no matter what. Different grit per inch for different rockwell of the rings, but no mystery stuff here. I.E. a chrome ring is very hard and will not take shape to the cylinder as a softer, cast iron ring Will.

Your posted "breakin method" can be achieved to the same degree, by 10 Hard Full throttle accelerations to 60 mph. If the throttle blade is wide open, the motor is under full load for that rpm, Period. 0-60 on an auto trans will run the motor thru the full rpm range @ full load, as many times as gears in the trans. Dyno Why??

It's all about full combustion pressure on the rings while trying to get the piston travel to max out in the new cylinder.


Mobile 1 Why?? There are only 2 motors produced in the last 40 years that would have benefitted from using Mobile 1 synthetic oil that I know of. One is GM's first V6 loser, the original 1980's 3.8l, the second is the fabulous Chrysler factory recommended, 2.7 V6 from the 98' and up Intrepids, both had oil overheating issues. Other then that Mobile 1 synthetic benefits are lost on Your wallet. If You dont agree, please name the last mass produced motor that You know of, that had an Oil related failure???

If You ran a "showroom car" thru that breakin procedure as posted, You just wasted some time. As the motor had already been idled for long enough to render the "procedure" useless.

Torque plates to mimic the stress from block to cylinder heads are good, but not needed for anything goin on around here. Heat is good also, but if the heat is not completely uniform across the block it's useless. This means big oven.

Finnally, if Your using only manufactures books and recomendations to live with, hope and pay for the well being of an any motor that has to make power for a living. . . . . Your missing the point of a forum. I'll take hands on experience advice, over factory recommended books any day and I'll have less headaches and more money in my pocket. If the factory knows so much. . . .how come their stuff breaks?

Everyone here has a list of factory built stupidity.

And Scrod, if Your ring lands were broken, bet on hydro/ether lock, pushed by an opposing firing cylinder. Rods bent??

With love, Kiwi

MikeP
09-30-2011, 09:21 AM
To others not interested in the hijack of this thread, I apologize. this is going to be pretty long and has nothing to do with ether in DDs but I am compelled to respond to Kiwi's comments.

"What are you even talking about? If I read Your post and did'nt know better I would think that YOU used some magic cnc hone method, to achieve the final crosshatch, after YOU ran the boring bar thru the cylinder."

I simply answered a question asked by another person on the forum; I didn't say there was any magic it all. As you said, there's none - it's just basic (professional) engine rebuilding as performed by many engine building shops that deal in high performance/competition engines.

Sure honing stones are used, but the one you find at the local parts store/sears/rental shop, of either the stone or brush variety (the one most people use when they are doing their own at-home work), is not the best tool for the job. You can't control it as well and the stone grit is not going to be optimum for the job. The surface is generally left too rough which means it takes a lot longer for the rings/wall to "break-in" and then, when they do, the ring gaps are larger than they should be due to more wearing away of ring/wall than was necessary.

Accelerating to 60 MPH won't break in the rings/walls in 10 runs. THere is not enough load because WOTs to 60 mean 1st and 2nd gear. There's very little load and for too short a time on the engine compared to runs up to red line in the higher gears. Have you noticed that engines with too much spark advance will detonate (ping) at high load in, say, 4th gear but they won't in 1st, 2nd? That's because there is very little actual load in the combustion chamber in those low gears. THe throttle blade being wide open doesn't mean the engine is loaded at all. You can open the throttle to WOT in neutral but there is no load. The motor has to be pushed to the RPM, temp and combustion pressure ranges that it will actually see in full throttle/full RPM/full load. Of course, any engine will eventually break in, pretty much regardless of how you operate the vehicle. But the object is to break it in "right now," not over hundreds or thousands of miles.

The "factory method" you denigrated was Mopar's recommendations for race motors from their competition division, not their sales department; it had nothing to do with cars they sold on the street. However, if I implied that we were doing what they said because they said it, I apologize, I was just stating it because it happened to correspond with what we were using successfully at the time. Mopar was very active/successful in factory drag and Nascar; they knew what they were doing. Heck, as of 2011, the quickest/fastest NHRA Super Stock drag car is a 1968 Hemi Barracuda.

NOT using factory information means you are wasting a lot of time. Mopar (just as an example, the other US companies had similar info though Mopar seemed to be the most thorough) had data for every form of competition they were involved in. You could buy an over the counter grandma-car Plymouth, buy the manuals from Chrysler's "Direct Connection" competition department, do exactly what they said to the engine/drive train/suspension, and you would have a car competitive in whatever class it was running in. Saying the factories don't know what they were doing is like saying Ferrari's Formula one information would be useless if you wanted to make your first Formula 1 car.

Why Mobil One? Because when we started using it , it was the only syn oil available - at least it was the only one commonly available. Long term tests/engine teardowns indicated less engine wear over 100,000 miles BUT, more important to us, 30Wt Mobil 1 allowed the same engine to produce more power than 30 Wt dino oil due to reduced friction. I did not mean to imply that Mobil One is any better than any other syn oil - I have no idea. BUT syn oil IS better than dino oil - at least for gas motors... ;)

You seem to be under the impression that i was reading out of a book as opposed to doing any work. I was involved in professional competition/high perf engine building from the late 70's to 2006. I worked with 3 different companies that are still in the business and quite well known doing that work. I also did "freelance" work from Memphis TN to Anchorage, AK to Long Island, NY, doing the same thing. I don't claim to know everything about it and I would immediately admit that techniques may have changed in the 5 years since I did it professionally.

Things do change. As an example, just about the time we were moving to Mexico (late '06) studies had determined that contrary to 100 years of practice, the top ring gap should be WIDER than the 2nd ring gap. Turned out that ring flutter was occurring on the top ring at high RPM, reducing potential power. Opening the top ring gap and reducing the 2nd ring gap eliminated the problem and power went up. At least some piston ring manufacturers now show that in their recommendations. Installing pistons/rings in the bore "dry" is another change from traditional practice that is relatively recent.

As Jim said, maybe a change from traditional practice will occur and some professional organization will state that syn oil is good for DDs. ;)

Boatnut
09-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Mikep,

What class did you race in, and how many Walley's do you have?

MikeP
09-30-2011, 10:04 AM
"What class did you race in, and how many Walley's do you have?"

Sadly, no Wally's though I did have the opportunity to shake Mr. Parks' hand at a NHRA event in 1979.

At different times I owned an SS/B Plymouth Belvedere, and an SS/F Dodge Challenger and I drove on occasion an SS/A Barracuda as well as several other cars in other classes. But I was never any more than an average drag-racer as far as driving was concerned. My main interest was engine work. Even with the cars I owned, I would turn over the race driving duties to a friend. I would run a couple of time trials to sort out tuning/header length and have the fun of running the car and would then turn it over to a "partner" to do the rest of the time trials and how ever many competition runs we ended up involved in.

So although I loved running the car(s) down the strip, I was better at PREPARING the cars to do that than driving them. For example - When I drove an SS/A Barracuda that I had wrenched, the best I could manage out of the car on the strip was an 9.03 but the normal driver immediately turned an 8.70 a few minutes later. .3 seconds is an eternity in that class level.

Incidentally, that ET difference demonstrates why ETs are not used for performance evaluation, trap speed is what you use. ETs change with driver reaction/hook-up at the line and through the gears but Trap speeds show how much power the engine is making and they don't vary based on ET. Trap speed shows power, ET shows driver (and it's what wins).

q240z
09-30-2011, 10:06 AM
please name the last mass produced motor that You know of, that had an Oil related failure???
...
With love, Kiwi
Ya gott love the Kiwi. lol

I have a few Chris Crafts, and the latest acquisition is a 1968 42' Commander powered by Ford 427 side oilers--the same blocks that powered GT40s and Cobras to many, many race wins. Those side oilers have solid lifters that allegedly devour cam lobes startlingly quickly unless the oil used has very specific properties; properties that the current crop of Clean Air Act-approved oils generally don't have. I say "allegedly devour cam lobes" because it hasn't happened to me; I've only read many discussions about the problem. I'm new to the whole gas motoryacht thing (always been a diesel guy) but the community of side oiler fans out there, including marine, classic car enthusiasts, and racers are all talking about the carnage. If I recall correctly, Crane Cams has responded to accusations that their products have declined in quality by commissioning studies that reveal the real problem: the oil you buy today isn't made for engines using obsolete lifter technology. Their recommendation (if you don't have barrels of NOS oil laying around) is to either buy ungodly expensive race oils that don't have to comply with the CAA standards or use additives to protect your cams. This info is all discoverable through internet searches if you're really interested.

Do I win something for answering the question? lol

But back to the original topic, the PO of my Connie told me one engine wouldn't start without a puff of ether. After I had the boat for a while, I realized the actual problem: the battery cable runs are very long, and after 40 years the 00 ground cable going to that engine had corroded internally. The starter wasn't getting enough juice to spin the engine fast enough to start without a little boost. I installed new 2/0 cables and VAROOOM--no more ether. But that engine is a serious smoker until it warms up. Correlation or causation, I can't say. But I suspect the term "ether baby" didn't come into existence without some good reason.

rsmith
09-30-2011, 02:52 PM
Ya gott love the Kiwi. lol

I have a few Chris Crafts, and the latest acquisition is a 1968 42' Commander powered by Ford 427 side oilers--the same blocks that powered GT40s and Cobras to many, many race wins. Those side oilers have solid lifters that allegedly devour cam lobes startlingly quickly unless the oil used has very specific properties; properties that the current crop of Clean Air Act-approved oils generally don't have. I say "allegedly devour cam lobes" because it hasn't happened to me; I've only read many discussions about the problem. I'm new to the whole gas motoryacht thing (always been a diesel guy) but the community of side oiler fans out there, including marine, classic car enthusiasts, and racers are all talking about the carnage. If I recall correctly, Crane Cams has responded to accusations that their products have declined in quality by commissioning studies that reveal the real problem: the oil you buy today isn't made for engines using obsolete lifter technology. Their recommendation (if you don't have barrels of NOS oil laying around) is to either buy ungodly expensive race oils that don't have to comply with the CAA standards or use additives to protect your cams. This info is all discoverable through internet searches if you're really interested.

Do I win something for answering the question? lol

But back to the original topic, the PO of my Connie told me one engine wouldn't start without a puff of ether. After I had the boat for a while, I realized the actual problem: the battery cable runs are very long, and after 40 years the 00 ground cable going to that engine had corroded internally. The starter wasn't getting enough juice to spin the engine fast enough to start without a little boost. I installed new 2/0 cables and VAROOOM--no more ether. But that engine is a serious smoker until it warms up. Correlation or causation, I can't say. But I suspect the term "ether baby" didn't come into existence without some good reason.

Design flaw not oil caused. You lose!!! JK JK JK

Avenger
09-30-2011, 04:26 PM
And Scrod, if Your ring lands were broken, bet on hydro/ether lock, pushed by an opposing firing cylinder. Rods bent??

With love, Kiwi

No bent rods. As far as I know it was pre-detonation from the ether.

I'll try to remember the camera next week. The Mack piston is worth a picture just for giggles.

Kiwipushrod
09-30-2011, 09:18 PM
Hey Q, the 65' side oilers blocks were drilled for Hydraulic lifters, I own a 65'. Top oiler was Cam first, oil fed, side oiler was Crank first. No soup for You, Ya Libratarian!!

Mr. Mike P, could You please tell the class Why Mr. Scrod suspects ether "Predet" for the Mack engine ring land failure????? I personally would be most interested in Your clear and consise explanation, it should fall into Your why do gassers only ping in 4th gear thingy, stuff.

Rigid Hone, Berry Tree, Kiwi

MikeP
09-30-2011, 10:15 PM
Kiwi, I would never presume to be able to teach you anything since you have demonstrated that you clearly know far more than I do about engines/engine building.

Re pushrods...As you have already figured out but are undoubtedly testing me/us, I would guess that since an excessive charge of N2O can (and has) easily cause ring lands to be destroyed, an excessive ether/air mix could do the same. However, I must admit I have NO experience with the ether thing so if that's impossible, please advise.

In any case, I apologize. It seems that 40 years of working on/building/evaluating performance engines has gotten in the way of my understanding of how engines REALLY work. I'll try to do better in the future. :)

q240z
10-02-2011, 08:46 AM
[QUOTE=Kiwipushrod;198981]Hey Q, the 65' side oilers blocks were drilled for Hydraulic lifters, I own a 65'. Top oiler was Cam first, oil fed, side oiler was Crank first. No soup for You, Ya Libratarian!![QUOTE]
That's wonderful trivia, Kiwi, none of which has anything to do with the fact that 427 side oilers (the ones that people actually pay big money for; top oilers they're recycling into Kias! lol) have been experiencing "Oil related failure" due to very recent changes in oil standards. The side oiler was "mass produced." Those were the criteria you stated. Now, gimme some soup! lol

q240z
10-02-2011, 08:47 AM
Hey Q, the 65' side oilers blocks were drilled for Hydraulic lifters, I own a 65'. Top oiler was Cam first, oil fed, side oiler was Crank first. No soup for You, Ya Libratarian!!
That's wonderful trivia, Kiwi, none of which has anything to do with the fact that 427 side oilers (the ones that people actually pay big money for; top oilers they're recycling into Kias! lol) have been experiencing "Oil related failure" due to very recent changes in oil standards. The side oiler was "mass produced" with solid lifters far longer than just 1965. Those were the criteria you stated. Now, gimme some soup! lol

note: wikipedia says only the '68 was drilled for hydraulic lifters, not '65.

Kiwipushrod
10-02-2011, 11:42 AM
Ya gott love the Kiwi. lol

I have a few Chris Crafts, and the latest acquisition is a 1968 42' Commander powered by Ford 427 side oilers--the same blocks that powered GT40s and Cobras to many, many race wins. Those side oilers have solid lifters

Do I win something for answering the question? lol

.

If wikpiedia were correct, wouldn't Your 68' CC side oilers have Hydraulic lifters? I'd give 1 can of Cambells cream of mushroom for the effort. . . . .If it was on sale. I also have 2 67' CC 427's, both hydrulic. I dont know what wikipedia says.

If You would have brought up the late 70's Chevy 305ci cam lobe problem, It could have been Minestroni! But I dont think that mobile 1 would have saved those either.

Heres a pic of one of My 67's, look like hyd lash adjusters to Me.
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/acme941/IMG_0215.jpg


But, like You said Q, it's all just trivia.

Love always, Kiwi

Kiwipushrod
10-02-2011, 12:00 PM
Kiwi, I would never presume to be able to teach you anything since you have demonstrated that you clearly know far more than I do about engines/engine building.

Re pushrods...As you have already figured out but are undoubtedly testing me/us, I would guess that since an excessive charge of N2O can (and has) easily cause ring lands to be destroyed, an excessive ether/air mix could do the same. However, I must admit I have NO experience with the ether thing so if that's impossible, please advise.

:)

Hey Mike, glad to see You commin around.

I live in Wisconsin and it's about 35* out side this morning. Does Your N2O reference, mean that I can take the half empty can of Reddi-Whip out of the fridge and give My ole Perkins powered bobcat a Hot Shot with it?

Kiwi ;)

smoothmove
10-02-2011, 12:38 PM
If wikpiedia were correct,

(What? - Seriously?)

Heres a pic of one of My 67's, look like hyd lash adjusters to Me.
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj24/acme941/IMG_0215.jpg


But, like You said Q, it's all just trivia.

Love always, Kiwi

Actually it looks like solid lifter adjustment to me. I've never seen a Chris Craft 427 with hydraulic lifters (stock anyway)
As to whether it's a side oiler, or a top oiler, you will have to get down and look at the port side of the engine. If there are 3 allen headed set screws just above the cross bolts, it's a side oiler. Otherwise it's a top oiler. It could be either one. In my boat the port engine is a side oiler, the starboard is a top oiler. There's an example in my profile pics.
Eric

Glory
10-02-2011, 09:50 PM
"Obviously you don't use ether on engines with glow pulgs"

Why Not?





. However I have never seen or heard of any damage to a diesel as long as the engine is rolling over while you give it a shot of ether. Some use WD 40 as it provides some lubricant.

Since DD sold ether injection systems, they must have been OK with using ether when needed.

Boatsb
10-02-2011, 09:53 PM
Glow plugs will ignite it and cause issues and damage.

Glory
10-02-2011, 10:01 PM
Glow plugs will ignite it and cause issues and damage.

what type of issues and damage?

Boatsb
10-02-2011, 10:54 PM
Glow plugs do exactly as the name says. They glow hot and ether will preignite in the cylinder. Once the ether reaches the plug it will explode well before the time it is supposed to. I would expect a piston on a compression stroke having an explosive charge of ether pushing back against it with valves that may still be open in non combustion areas would allow blowback and could allow combustion to occur in the wrong places. Different engines would have different issues but damage to the heads and connecting rods are common especially when too much is used.

Avenger
10-03-2011, 09:57 AM
Okay, I remembered to bring the camera.

The Yanmar piston:

http://i52.tinypic.com/25f3cdi.jpg

The upper ring land is missing approximately 50% and the lower maybe 20%. The engine supposedly had less than 50 hrs on it and the guy who removed the piston said he didn't clean any carbon off it. It is as-removed from engine. Minus the oil.

Now the Mack... The steel insert for the upper two rings is broken out of the aluminum casting. Believe it or not, the upper ring is intact:

http://i51.tinypic.com/t6xkra.jpg

The second ring.... well, it's not obvious in this picture, but the big hole just to the upper right of the wrist pin hole actually goes all the way up through the piston crown. The second ring escaped through that hole and chunks of it are embedded in the crown. There's also a lot of ring chunk shaped dents in the crown.

See? I told you it was good for a giggle. :D

rsmith
10-03-2011, 10:39 AM
You could always try this method for cold starts

http://www.airtalk.org/starting-a-lycoming-in-cold-wx-vt83205.html

Avenger
10-03-2011, 11:30 AM
Troublemaker!