Thr Rebuild Job

[Jackman]

Well....

I started to pull the 454's from my 32FB Tues and Wed. Had both engines stripped and ready to pull out in a matter of 3hrs. Well....stripped to the point that everything but six remaining mounting bolts. Can't believe how corroded in these bolts were until I finally got some of them out.

I planned on having the engines to the rebuilder by the weeks end but my "connection" for the crane let me hang out to dry. (The boat is still in the water. If I put it in the driveway like I did during the off season I wouldn't be able to get to the engines to pull them out. Was just easier to get to and cost the same if I just craned them out.)

I took some pictures and will continue to take them if anyones interested. When I get a good collection of them I'll email them out if anyone is interested in a laugh. The engines should be out within the next couple of days.

Waking up after a full day of hanging over the engines is killer. Every joint is aching.

Thanks for the advice in my past posts everyone. Lets see if I can put all of the advice to good use!

Jack

[mikep996]

Jack,

I've found that in planning any boat-work schedule, I figure out how long I think it will take, then double it. I Add 50% to that figure for a sub-total, and add 30% to that figure for "unforseen issues." This USUALLY gets me close enough to SEE the ballpark; it does not always get me IN the ballpark. :D

Best of Luck!

[67hat34c]

PLEASE SEND PHOTOS TO ME WHEN YOU GET THEM

THANKS

STEVE H.

SHIERH@AOL.COM

[yachtzee1976]

Jackman...I am contemplating a rebuild or even a repower in my 1976 36C and would really appreciate checking out your pics!
When you get a minute...please send them to truppelli@nls.net
Thanks
Todd

[Jackman]

I'm still in the process...so I son't have a lot to show you at this point but I will email them.

[Jackman]

Well,

After stripping the engines as far as possible while in the boat I was able to get the lifted out and placed on my truck. Tok a matter of 20min to get both of them out. I wouldn't do it any other way. There was total control over the situation from the start. We took them 150mi back home where we took them down to the heads and block and this morning delivered them to the machinist who will be machining and rebuilding for me. Meanwhile...I have the grunt work to do. Sand and clean off all the parts I took off so that I can paint them, treat the risers ect with muratic acid, clean the bilge and repaint as well as redo the bonding system. Lots of work to do before the engines come back. I'll probably just replace the oil pumps in the trannys because they seem okay as far as clutches and gears. I saw no metal in them.

I should have them in three weeks. The machinist will be machining the block 0.030 over and replacing pretty much everything inside. We were going to reuse a lot of the parts but he thought that we'd get a better job out of it by putting in new pistons and cams and redoing the entire top ends of the engines. All said and done I should have a set of "tight" 420hp powerhouses to put back in my Hat.

Turns out one engine had a blown head gasket and the other a busted pushrod to the oil pump. I think the other had a bad head gasket as well, which would have explained the loss of power after 3000 rpms.

Anyhow, the busy work is underway and I'll keep everyome posted. I took pictures too. You should have seen my dad's old 1987 dodge pickup with two 454's and trannys in the back. Wasn't a pretty sight.

[John F]

Please describe how you were able to get the engines out. Did you get them out using a tow truck boom, backhoe, or what? The reason I'm asking is that I'll have to do the same thing (hopefully not to soon) and I'd also like to have control over it so that I can have the boat at my boatyard when the engines are out so that I can do the grunt work. Thanks.

[Jackman]

I have a place in a town near Rehoboth Beach Del. in a community called the Potnets community. The boat was already in the water when I found out I had to do the rebuild and between getting her out of the water and on the hard as well as renting the equipment to lift the engines out I decided to have a crane come in and crane them out. Much more safer and I had way more control over the "monsters" which each weighed in at over 1200lbs with tranny and manifolds.

Anyhow, the crane was a 35ton crane, which was needed to lift the engines because of the distance between the boat and crane, which was on the road. He dropped the cable down from about 40ft and we attached it directly to the engine where Crusader so nicely put brackets on the manifold for such an occasion. Within 20-30 minutes we had both engines sitting on my Dad's truck. Was a piece of cake and the boat was still in the water while we did it.

Word of caution...if you do it like this make sure all fluids are out of the engine. We pumped all fluids into a container before we removed the engines and made sure all holes on the manifolds and various other "orfices" were plugged shut. You don't want any fluids to get spilled on your boat or most importantly in the water or on the ground. We didn't have a drop of oil get spilled because it was all out of the engines prior to removal.

I wouldn't use a back hoe or tow truck because they rely on hydraulics, which are more difficult to control in "hairy" situations". I mistake and you could do enough damage to your boat or the engines to make up for the price of the cranes and then some. I paid $300 for the crane job. Well worth it and I would not do it any other way. Cranes also have more reach than a backhoe or tow truck as well as more control over what its moving.

[John F]

Thanks for the info. The crane sounds like the way to go. I fished on a B31 called the "Sea Nile" owned by John Kelly out of Pots Nets a couple weeks ago. Great trip.

[Jackman]

Anybody know if the engine mounts to a 1985 32FB with 454's are attached to the stringers with anything other than the six bolts on each rail? I can't tell if they are caulked down or that that they are just so grubby that they are sticking. I want to remove them to either get some work done on the rails or replace them with new mounts/rails. Anybody know where I can price a set of new mounts/rails? They're made of aluminum and the rails are pitted around the bolt holes. May need to be replaced.

[Jackman]

Well...the update as of today is that one engine is pulled apart at the machine shop and getting ready to get dipped ect. They told me one of the pistons was pretty much melted up as a result of a possible vacuum leak at the intake manifold (If I remember correctly). He said the heads still looked in good shape and the bearings weren't spun. Not terrible for a motor that is 2300 hours old. (Looking at it in a positive light.)

Waiting to see what happened to the second motor.

[67HAT34C]

HAVE YOU CONSIDERED UPGRADING TO CENTER RISER MANIFOLDS? APPARENTLY THEY ARE MUCH MORE EFFICIENT THAT REAR DISCHARGE. USE 4" DISCHARGE AND ELBOWS.

[Jackman]

I thought about updating the risers and manifolds but as per the advice of individuals on this site I opted to keep the old design. For 18yrs old my manifolds were in good shape. All I did was dip them in muratic acid to remove the deposits and then refaced the inlets and outlets for reassembly. I am also blasting them so I can clean up the outside of them for a new paint job. (of course the inlets and outlets will be covered.)

[67HAT34C]

I AM STILL THINKING ABOUT DOING THE SAME, PULLING MANIFOLDS AND GETTING THEM MILLED. I HAVE ACCESS TO GLASS BEAD BOOTH SO I WILL DO THAT PART MYSELF. WITH OTHER EXPENSES MOUNTING THIS MAY BE THE WAY TO GO V REPLACEMENT OF MANIFOLDS. WILL LINE UP SIDE BY SIDE AND DECIDE.

PLEASE SEND PHOTOS OF YOUR JOB WHEN YOU CAN

STEVE HIERHOLZER
SHIERH@AOL.COM

[mikep996]

The only advantage I can see for center risers is that it is cheaper for the manufacturer because they don't have to produce/stock a left and right manifold. They are interchangeable. Also they are smaller and so take less space. Other than that, they provide no operational advantage over "traditional" Crusader manifolds.

An easy way to verify this is to check the manifold temps of 454's with center risers vs rear risers. We performed precisely this check yesterday at our marina with a Craftsman Infrared temp gun and found that the temps between the two varied less than 10 degrees with the traditional risers actually being the cooler of the two.

[67HAT34C]

I WAS TOLD THAT THE CENTER RISERS WERE MORE FREE FLOWING AND WOULD INCREASE PERFORMANCE. BUT FROM WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IT APPEARS THAT IT IS NOT TRUE.
I WENT OUT AT LUNCH AND DISCUSSED WITH LOCAL MARINE DEALER(MERCRUSER) WHO AGREED THAT THEY WOULD NOT REPLACE CRUSADER REAR DISCHARGE MANIFOLDS.

FURTHERMORE THE REAR DISCHARGE GIVES MORE ACCESS ROOM ON THE OUTBOARD SIDES IN OUR SET UP. CENTER RISERS WILL MAKE IT HARDER FOR ME TO FIT DOWN THE OUTBOARD SIDE OF EITHER MOTOR.

THINK WE WILL STICK WITH THE OLD SET UP.

THANKS FOR THE INPUT.

[Jackman]

Last night my first mate (Dad), and I sanded up the exhaust parts, (risers, elbows ect) and painted them Crusader blue. The manifolds we will be bead blasting this week and painting as well.

I will be working on the trannies after the weekend and had a thought. Is this 0.030 over bo ring of my motors going to have an effect on my tranny? Meaning, will the jump in HP be enough to cause problems with my tranny? I would think not but I was just checking. I have B/W velvet inline drives 1.88-1.

One motor is almost done at the machine shop (it was bored out and the upper end was completed. Pistons had to be installed and lower end put together.) The other motor is being magnafluxed and being prepped for boring. Can't wait to see how these babies run!!

I took off the old en gine water pumps and they had bronze impellors. They did not seem in bad shape but I guess I'll replace them anyway since it would be a pain in the arse to replace them while the motors are in place. I am ordering the E35 version of the pump as suggested by the crusader dealer I got the parts from. Will this water pump have a b ronze impellor? I forgot to ask.

[mikep996]

THe .030 overbore will increase displacement of your 454 to approximately 466 CID. Since the marine 454 (350HP)are mildly tuned engines anyway, the HP increase provided by the larger bore will probably not exceed 5-6. You might, with suitable tweaking and carb jetting adjustments, get 9-10 HP. In either case, the trannies can handle the load just fine, assuming they not damaged or defective.

Incidentally, the rebuilt engines (assuming they are being properly rebuilt) will probably provide noticeably more power than the original factory engines. This is not just because they are slightly larger but primarily because the clearances and specs will be correct.

[Jackman]

Anyone know where to get those copper bonding strips that are screwed into your hull and you attach the gas tank grounds, engine grounds ect to? I think they'd come in 50 to 100ft rolls.

[seasession]

Lewis Marine Supply is where I bought the bonding strap when I did my repower. Their website is www.lewismarine.com Phone # is 800-823-0311. Price for a 100' roll is 79.75 of 1" wide material.

[Jackman]

I called Lewis Marine and they won't sell me the strips. They are wholesale only. The gave me a name or two of people who buy from them but none of them have it or normally have it.

[jim rosenthal]

Try West Marine, or try Ward's Marine Electric in Florida..they might have it to sell.

[Jackman]

I found a place that sells 1/2in copper strap tinned and 1.75 in copper strap tinned. Too small, too big...maybe go with 1/2inch? They also have a braided/tinned with eyelets. Also braided/tinned/pvc coated with eyelets. Whats overkill and whats acceptable?

[Jackman]

I'm getting ready to reassemble my newly rebuild crusaders and I wanted to ask this question..On the block what type of bots do you recommend I replace the old/used ones with? (ie manifold bolts and any other ones that need to be replaced) Regular grade V steel or stainless. My thinking is stainless is more of an issue if the break off at a later date or sieze up. I though steel grade V would be sufficient.

[67HAT34C]

DONT USE STAINLESS, THEY ARE TOO SOFT AND WILL NOT HOLD TORQUE SETTINGS. USE ONLY GRADE 5 OR BETTER. ALSO MAKE SURE TO RE TAP ALL HOLES. RE TAP THEN CLEAN OUT WITH DENATURED ALCOHOL YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PUT THE BOLTS IN BY HAND THEN GET PROPER TORQUE. DO NOT USE ANTI SIEZE COMPOUND OR ANYTHING ELSE ON THE BOLTS. PUT THEM IN DRY.

[Jackman]

The bonding strips I got through Sam's Marine. Thanks!

I just got done talking with the machine shop doing the machining on my rebuilds. I should be able to pick them up by the end of the week! One engine had a blown piston and the other had a burnt valve. Everyting else was okay.

I have all the parts for the port engine sand blasted and repainted and currently working on the starboard side parts. My coolant system parts are all painted and waiting to be used as well. I plan on degreasing the trannie casings and repainting. No need to rebuild as there were no problems with them. I'll just replace the innner and outer shaft seals as discussed earlier. (They're not too tuff to take out later if I have too.)

I still haven't decided what or if I need to do anything with the props. Right now my props are only 3-bladed 18.5 inchx20. Will this be an issue? I know someone said they have 21x21 4 blades on their 32 Hatt but I was hoping to wait until the end of the season. I don't want to screw up my new engines. What do you all think?

I figure I'll have her up and running by the third week of this month. Then I should have the pictures completed if anyone wants to see them. Keep in mind this is the first time I've done this on a boat. So if you want a good laugh.....:D

I'm hoping she runs a lot better. Maybe a little bit better efficiency? Probably not.

[NANPO 41]

try a local commercial fishing vessel supplier. If you don't have any success try Rose Marine in Gloucester Ma. which is where I got mine or possibly Hamilton Marine in Portland Me. (Hamilton has a website)

[surfdancer45]

I purchased strap material in roll from Boat U/S. They list it in their catelog. It is about 2 inches wide. Good luck on your project.

[67HAT34C]

I WAS AT A LOCAL SURPLUS SUPPLIER IN ORLANDO TODAY AND FOUND SEVERAL ROLLS OF COPPER STRAP MATERIAL. THEY HAD SEVERAL GUAGES AND WIDTHS.
1.5" WAS .50 PER FOOT AND THE 2" HEAVY GUAGE WAS 1/ FOOT.

THE COMPANY IS CALLED SKYCRAFT, LOCATED IN ORLANDO/WINTERPARK FLORIDA, THEY HAVE A WEB SITE.

THIS PLACE HAS EVERYTHING,

[ELECTRA VI]

Boat Owner's Warehouse sells the copper stripping.

[Jackman]

Well,

I just got the motors back...the day I returned to work from a weeks vacation in the Outer Banks. They look really good and the machinist said they looked in very good condition compared to some of the ones he's been asked to rebuild. He said they should run better than new. We'll see that soon, I guess. I
'll start reasembling them tonight and over the next 2 or 3 days.

Anybody have any pointers? I think this should be a piece of cake...just a lot of busy work. All of my parts are cleaned up and painted so all I have to do it make like one of those mechanic shows on Sat PM TV and put everything abck together without a problem right? :-)

[mikep996]

Are you performing the actual engine reassembly - putting in the crank, rods, pistons, etc.? If so, I have a number of suggestions which I'll be glad to post. But since I'm lazy, I don't actually want to type if I don't have to. :\

[Jackman]

Mike, (I guess you're Mike)

Thanks for the offer but the machinist who bored out my block offered me a good deal on reassembling the motors for me. He used all new parts as well so I let him rebuild it for me. He has been in the business 40yrs and his father owned the business before him. He bored out the block and rebuild the bottom end while his daughter rebuilt the iupper end. (My brother who works for a well-known transmission rebuilder in my area recommended this guy because he is used by a lot of the highperformance engine folks as well as the big Cat diesels ect).

Since I had enough to do as far as blasting the rust off the parts I was reusing and painting them and all the bilge work I chose to have this guy to do them. All I have to do is put on all the components like the alternator, starters ect and of course all the coolant system parts. I should have them in fairly soon. I think I'll take a couple of days off work to get this done. I wanna hear these babies run again!

[mikep996]

Jack,

Sounds like you got a good deal from a knowledgeable machinist. I'm sure you will be very pleased with the results which will easily exceed the original performance/efficiency of the engines.

It's amazing what a difference proper machining and assembly makes.

Let us know how everything goes once it's all back together!

MikeP

[Jackman]

Mike,

Do you have any suggested breakin procedures for these 454's since you seem to be well versed in rebuilding? These are my first marine rebuilds so I don't know if thery're any different than a truck. As I said earlier the block was bored and the pistons and rest of the parts are new so I would suggest its like breaking in a new engine.

[jim rosenthal]

Start with standard motor oil, not synthetic. Vary the revs and avoid WOT for the first 20 hrs. Your shop should be able to tell you what the break-in procedure is, including when to retorque the head bolts if needed. If you want to run synthetic oil, you have to break the engines i first as it doesn't permit enough friction to seat the rings etc or so I've heard.

[Jackman]

I'll definitely be starting with standard oil...something like 15-40 or 30wt. I haven't decided whether or not its worth it to go synthetic. I use it in my car but I don't know if its gonna do anything for my boat en gines. I change the oil a lot so having oil that stays cleaner longer as synthetic does isn't an issue.

I'll be hand cranking it first to prime the pumps and get some oil in the upper end before I even think of turning them over. Haven't decided if I'm going to run them at home before I drop them in or not. I know I can supply water to them but that isn't the problem. The main problem is noise because there are obviously no mufflers on these engines. I wanted to get them dynotested but is it really worth it?

[67hat34c]

what did you paint the engins with? if you used engine enam. then you should put multi coats on it and let it harden. make the thing look plastic. i like dupli-color.
sorry i did not reccomend imron before now but the engines should have been painted with imron. it is a good high temp paint and will last much longer than spray can enamil.

i know you want them back in the boat soon but dont chince on the paint. i used 6 cans just on risers and elbows. baked them in oven for 4 hours at 200. they look nice and paint is hard as a rock.

[Jackman]

Used Duplicolor DE1608 with ceramic. The closest match.

The motors came in clean so I wiped everything down with Acetone to remove any oils that may be present and put on three coats. The first coat was light and then followed with two moderate coats. The paint goes on very well and looks great. The second coat followed the first coat by ten minutes and then the third followed the second by 20 minutes. Got everything done in 45 minutes which is well within the alooted 1hour on the can. If you get all coats on within an hour is maintains its shine. I put this paint on all parts and the block. Lotsa cans in my trashcan!

All painting was done in my garage and after spraying was complete I closed everything up and turned the dehumidifier on full bore. This helped cure the paint to a solid rock covering over all the parts. I think it'll hold up very well.

Let me know what you think..

[mikep996]

Two items:

1. Ideally you should prelube the system by spinning the oil pump (there are accessories that fit onto a drill for doing this) without spinning (cranking) the engine. If you are not doing this and plan to crank the engine to build up oil pressure, REMOVE the spark plugs first!! Crank the engine until oil pressure comes up. Then reinstall the plugs and start the engine.

2. As Jim mentioned, it is extremely important to vary the RPM. In reality, piston rings seat quite quickly in a properly machined bore; it is a myth that it takes them a long time to seat. I prefer this particular one myself and have been using it for 25 years.

Warm up engine and then perform:

Three 1/2 Throttle runs from
40% - 60% of the max rpm - do not "hold" the engine at the 60% mark - accelerate to it and then smoothly and fairly quickly reduce the throttle back to the 40% rpm.

Check engine temp, if normal, proceed. If high, maintain fast idle untill temp reduces to normal then perform:

Three 3/4 Throttle runs from
40% - 80% of max rpm (same instructions)

Three Full Throttle runs from
30% - 100% of max rpm (same instructions)

That's it. Either the rings are seated or they are never going to. Failure to seat can occur if the cylinders were not properly prepared or the bore finish is not compatible with the piston rings (different types of rings require a different finish). This problem IS NOT going to happen since you had a reputable machinist prepare your engines.

I realize that many people are uncomfortable with this, believing that a long, slow break-in somehow improves engine life. If you are not comfortable with it, perform whatever break-in procedure you prefer but, as Jim said, be sure you vary the rpm and engine load - do not operate at fixed rpm for lengthy periods - acceleration/deceleration loading is what seats the rings properly.



Enjoy!

MikeP

[Jackman]

This sounds like a quick procedure. Do you have time frames for each of the three RPM variances or is this simply a ramp up and ramp down situation.


I will be putting 30wt or 15-40 and hand-cranking...already planned on that. Do you think I should stay away from synthetics on the next oil change? I can't see too much added value for it.

[mikep996]

The acceleration should be done by rapidly moving the throttles to the designated throttle-opening position (1/2, 3/4, or full), let the rpm build to the appropriate setting, then close the throttle rapidly until the RPM drops to or below the low rpm point. The idea is to get both low and high vacuum conditions applied to the cylinders/rings.

Although I use syn oil (mobil 1) in all my engines, and have since the mid-80's I can't say I've seen any evidence in a boat engine that it really is worth the extra money. I am comfortable with the evidence for its use in a car engine and can supply plenty of personal examples and measurements to support it

As far as using it for break-in, Mobil contends that Synthetics are suitable for engine break in. The fact that several car manufacturers, Porsche, for one, use Mobil 1 as factory fill and still, per the owners manual, require a "break-in, seems to support that. I have used it as the original oil in several engines and have had no difficulty at all with ring sealing. But although I'm comfortable with it myself, there is so much counter-opinion that I am not prepared to recommend it to others. However, I have to say that I have never seen any EVIDENCE that Syn oils don't let an engine break in properly - just a lot of STORIES that it doesn't.

I think that it's far more likely that in cases where the rings didn't seat and Syn oil was used, it was becasue of ring/bore surface mismatches in the components, preparation or machining not because of the oil. But that's just my opinion that I cannot back up with extensive personal observations, measurements, etc.

But rather than deal with any consternation caused by this discussion, I suggest you break in with regular oil for whatever time period you are comfortable with, then switch to synthetics if you wish to do so.

[Sam]

Try contacting Sam's Marine. 336 824 6765

[67HAT34C]

YOUR PAINT JOB SOUND GOOD. I LIKE THE DUPLICOLOR.SEEMS TO BE QUALITY PAINT. WE ARE USING GM BLUE. AS WE REPAINT THE PARTS. I WOULD RECOMMEND MORE COATS ON THE RISERS ELBOWS MANIFOLDS AND TRANSMISSIONS. SEEMS LIKE THESE PLACES ARE MORE PRONE TO RUST.

WHEN THIS THING IS DONE YOU MAY WANT A GLASS DECK TO SHOW THEM OFF.

[Jackman]

I have three coats on now and planned on "touching up" when I have the components, elbows, risers and tanny attached. She's lookin better already. With the rebuilt engines repainted, the bilge cleaned up and painted and eventually the wires and wire harnesses covered it should look presentable for once in my engine compartment. After that comes the interior and all the wood trim....Don't know which is worse!

[jim rosenthal]

Actually, if you think about it, when engines are run-in and tested on a dyno they run them in for 15 mins or so and then begin doing dyno pulls. Which are to full power, pretty much. And they hold up fine, so obviously the rings and other pieces seat like they're supposed to.
It sounds like you're going to have a real nice engine room...maybe that glass deck isn't such a bad idea after all. One thing I did in my engine room was put in more lights; Hatteras had supplied one 12v light in a glass globe, a fixture made by Hubbell, who still make it. Home Depot sells similar glass globe fixtures which are painted steel, with a cage over the light, and I added a few of those. They have held up fine and make it much easier to work on everything. I use a 25w 12v bulb in each and there is lots of light down there.

[NANPO 41]

You should definitely prime the engine by driving the oil pump with an electric drill. You do this with the dist. removed using a rod made like the dist drive. Your machine shop should be able to help you with this if you have never done it before. It is a simple process but well worth the time spent.

[Jackman]

The engines are finally sitting in the boat believe it or not. I don't have them totally commissioned but they are in and at least some aditional dead weight in the boat in the event that this upcominf hurricane has any effect on my area.

All I have to do is hook up some coolant lines, align the engines and let her rip! I bought the priming tool for the oil so thats set.

The only hang up so far is that the OEM engine mounts I purchased from Crusader have to be cut. I don't see any other way around it. On the Starboard side of each engine where the starter is mounted is a mount that the tranny is hooked to. The mount can't be adjusted to its fullest capability since the starter is in the way. I think I have to cut them unless you guys have any other ideas?

[Jackman]

As soon as I get my DSL services connected I'll set up the pictures on a website toy show those of you interested. Due to being really busy with work and home I won't be firing up the engines until this weekend at best. Still have a few odds and ends to do. The oil is in and I have already primed the pumps. I'll cross my fingers.