cleaning head exchanger with acid

[robymayway]

Hi friends, best wishes of new year from Italy!!

I have a little question for you:
both raw water sistem of dd 6-71 t engine have been totaly disassembled on 2008 for cleaning, ( temp before was 200° after 175/180) now temp is around 190/195 ° and I would like be sure to avoid problem for my summer holidays cruising.
What I would like do is cleaning by myself the system with acid.

is there someone to teach me step by step how can I do???
timing, typology of acid, instruction and suggetion...

thanks a lotttt!
roby

[fissioneng]

Look in the Frequently Asked Questions section under "Genesis - Heat Exchangers". You will find this link

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483

[robymayway]

Look in the Frequently Asked Questions section under "Genesis - Heat Exchangers". You will find this link

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1483


really thanks!!! very easy to understand!!! Bravo!!

[Mario Tranquilein]

Hi friends, best wishes of new year from Italy!!

I have a little question for you:
both raw water sistem of dd 6-71 t engine have been totaly disassembled on 2008 for cleaning, ( temp before was 200° after 175/180) now temp is around 190/195 ° and I would like be sure to avoid problem for my summer holidays cruising.
What I would like do is cleaning by myself the system with acid.

is there someone to teach me step by step how can I do???
timing, typology of acid, instruction and suggetion...

thanks a lotttt!
roby

My boat was sitted in the hard for 9 years when I bought it. One of the first things was dismounted the HE, changed the big O rings in each side and all the gaskets new. But in the first HE bronze core I put natural muriatic acid and the acid eat the core in the inside but I don't noticed after I puttes eerything back and the water dissapear!. So try to mix the acid with water it would take more time but it will be safer!. Mario

[robymayway]

My boat was sitted in the hard for 9 years when I bought it. One of the first things was dismounted the HE, changed the big O rings in each side and all the gaskets new. But in the first HE bronze core I put natural muriatic acid and the acid eat the core in the inside but I don't noticed after I puttes eerything back and the water dissapear!. So try to mix the acid with water it would take more time but it will be safer!. Mario


ACID MURIATIC???? that seems to be really dangerous for a sweet engines as dd are!!!!
I think that GENESIS instruction sound perfect for my little experience!!! Isn't it??

[MikeP]

Muriatic acid and Oxalyic acid mixed in water is the Detroit Diesel recommended process for acid-cleaning the heat exchanger and intercoolers (if you have them). I don't recall the exact proportions but they are listed in the service manual which, if you don't have, you should purchase one.

I don't have the service manual here but I SEEM to recall that the proportions for the muriatic are 1 part muriatic, 3 parts water. I don't remember the oxalyic but it seems like I mixed 1 gal of muriatic, 3 gals of water, and 4-5 ounces of oxalyic. BUT AGAIN, check that in the service manual to be sure.

Genesis method is an excellent way to maintain the components but I recommend that at least for your first cleaning after acquiring the boat that you disassemble everything and clean per the DD recommendations. That way you get a look at the internals.

Personally, I pull the HEs every few years and do the DD method.

[Timeout]

The DD formula is 1/3 muriatic acid to 2/3 water and 1/2 pounds oxalic acid to each 2 1/2 gallons of solution.

Doing mine now along with all water hoses, couplers, oil hoses, fuel hoses, thermostat, fresh water pump, block heater, and engine paint. As hoses had factory paint, seems the right thing to do after 32 years.

[Genevatexan]

I did mine last year with a 1 to 3 mix of muriatic acid to water and then a baking soda rinse and flush following. They were 70 to 80% plugged due to neglect of prior owner. The cleaning took less than 5 minutes in a 5 gallon water bucket followed by the baking soda and water flushes with lots of water.
There was no damage, and my terperatures now run right at 170.

Sono en stato a milano 7 anni, anche. ho lavoratto li per il agenzia Sociata Servizi Bancari. Devi andari a Percorso di Venere, un estetica (spa) al centro di milano; loro sono amici miei.

Good luck with the exchangers,
Kent

[robymayway]

I did mine last year with a 1 to 3 mix of muriatic acid to water and then a baking soda rinse and flush following. They were 70 to 80% plugged due to neglect of prior owner. The cleaning took less than 5 minutes in a 5 gallon water bucket followed by the baking soda and water flushes with lots of water.
There was no damage, and my terperatures now run right at 170.

Sono en stato a milano 7 anni, anche. ho lavoratto li per il agenzia Sociata Servizi Bancari. Devi andari a Percorso di Venere, un estetica (spa) al centro di milano; loro sono amici miei.

Good luck with the exchangers,
Kent


Hi Kent, I go to Milano every two days... but next time I will get an half days to dedicate to myself to my body and my mind.... "Percorso di Venere" ...just the name seems a good program.eheheh!! ::--)))

How ever coming back to my HE maintenance, I have prepared all necessary to follow the Genesis's Instructions. I am a little bit more confident to use Phosphoric acid instead Muriatic acid. ( even if DD raccomandations use Muriatic way )

thanks
roberto

[REBrueckner]

robmay...have you also checked for growth at your raw water intakes, collapsed hoses and raw water impellers???? If your raw water pumps are belt driven, check for slippage....

If impeller blades are missing for example, meaning broken off, you should have to disassemble your intercoolers and maybe heat exchanger intake sides to remove the impeller pieces....

[robymayway]

robmay...have you also checked for growth at your raw water intakes, collapsed hoses and raw water impellers???? If your raw water pumps are belt driven, check for slippage....

If impeller blades are missing for example, meaning broken off, you should have to disassemble your intercoolers and maybe heat exchanger intake sides to remove the impeller pieces....


Thanks REBrueckner
yes every thing have been checked and work correctly, I want give a cleaning because the temperature arrived at 190/195.
Normally when EC are cleaned it arrived at 175/180 max.

Is only a routine maintenance to save my old engine DD.

Obviuosly, disassembling all elements guarantee more insurance of fresh and clean, but I would like save some money this year.

Just an answer for you for my curiosity:
I would like make this job with the boat on water.
do you think should be possible make a "CLOSE circuit" and running the engine at minimun RPM for an hour for example?
My idea should be close the raw water intake and connect the water pipe just before the intercooler mix room.... what your opinion??
this way should permit to the mix water/acid to circulate into the EC element without problem of ecology because all liquid will remain into the >EC circuit

what's your opinion??
thanks
roberto

[Overtemp Marine]

Thanks REBrueckner
yes every thing have been checked and work correctly, I want give a cleaning because the temperature arrived at 190/195.
Normally when EC are cleaned it arrived at 175/180 max.

Is only a routine maintenance to save my old engine DD.

Obviuosly, disassembling all elements guarantee more insurance of fresh and clean, but I would like save some money this year.

Just an answer for you for my curiosity:
I would like make this job with the boat on water.
do you think should be possible make a "CLOSE circuit" and running the engine at minimun RPM for an hour for example?
My idea should be close the raw water intake and connect the water pipe just before the intercooler mix room.... what your opinion??
this way should permit to the mix water/acid to circulate into the EC element without problem of ecology because all liquid will remain into the >EC circuit

what's your opinion??
thanks
roberto


Hi Roberto,

I have been doing Heat Exchanger Cleaning for a while and loose 5-10 degrees depending on the scale build up on the engines I service. The best way to solve your probelm is to make a closed loop system. I Have several ways of doing the simple procedure using a chemical called Rydlyme it is a safe biodegradable non toxic chemical what wont affect your Hoses ,seals, gaskets or solder joints and is safe to breath in the confines of a engine room. I have all of the CAT,Detroit,Man ect Impeller plates with a 1 in hose attachment and remove the Impeller and bolt the various plates on the engine also clamping off all of the stuffing box and stabilizer water feeds as to not loose the chemical. First I remove the hose off of the exhaust riser and attatch a hose conected to a pump and drum this is where I pump the chemical into the Raw water side of the engine circulating the chemical through the Heat Exchanger fuel and trans coolers and after cooler if it is in the saltwater loop with the chemical returning back to my drum through the impeller plate hose this is a comerical setup but it is the best way to clean your exchangers and go as close to the Seacock as possable. There are other ways of doing this service with simple bucket and pump some hoses plumbing fittings and making the closed loop starting from the Exhaust riser hose and maybe find zinc port to return the chemical back to your bucket or remove the impeller, place the impeller plate back on close the sea cock remove the sea water hose from your sea cock and place that in your chemical bucket and have the pump circulating the chemical through the Exhaust hose through your system back to the bucket there a lots of inexpencive ways to do this but I personally would not use acid for health, environemental, and posable damage to Hoses, gaskets ect
Best of luck James Overemp Marine

[SKYCHENEY]

Now there's a commercial post if I ever saw one.

Personally, I'd rather use acid. It's cheap and I know that works. I'm so sick of all this "environmentally friendly" crap.

[Boatnut]

Now there's a commercial post if I ever saw one.

Personally, I'd rather use acid. It's cheap and I know that works. I'm so sick of all this "environmentally friendly" crap.

I agree Sky, not to mention the acid can be discarded at the propper facilities, but that adds a little more work. I have always had good luck following the manufacturers reccommendations, how many times have we heard of things not working and costing more in the long run, because someone had a cheaper or easier way.

[bobk]

Rydlyme appears to be 10% muriatic acid. Here is the MSDS sheet.

http://www.rydlyme.com/pdf/RYDLYME%20U.S.%20MSDS%20Aug%202009%20REVISION.pdf

Look down near the bottom and it says it is 'non-corrosive' ????????

Neither Rydlyme or muriatic will ever be found in my ER. The fumes cause rust on exposed surfaces. Phosphoric acid will work as well and not cause that problem because it is not volatile.

Bob

[daniel r morrison]

I have the simple solution for you. I had 671's in my 42 sportfish for 14 years before I repowered. I took the heat exchangers out once and that was enough. Each season I would flush the system as follows. I removed the zinc in the raw water pump and screwed a barbed fitting into it. attached was a 3' long plastic tube. I would siphon a gallon of straight muratic acid through this tube with the engine running at idle. Let it run for 5 or 10 minutes more to totally flush the acid out and reinstall the zinc. The results were always the same 5 to 8 degrees cooler while running at cruise speed. this is a simple no brainer and as time tells did not harm anything. It takes about 2 hours or less to do both engines, and 2 gallons of acid. better than 2 days to pull the heat exchangers and boil them on land and pay for the gasket kits. By the way both engines were good running takeouts when I repowered with 480 cummins in 2005

[SKYCHENEY]

Rydlyme appears to be 10% muriatic acid. Here is the MSDS sheet.

http://www.rydlyme.com/pdf/RYDLYME%20U.S.%20MSDS%20Aug%202009%20REVISION.pdf

Look down near the bottom and it says it is 'non-corrosive' ????????

Neither Rydlyme or muriatic will ever be found in my ER. The fumes cause rust on exposed surfaces. Phosphoric acid will work as well and not cause that problem because it is not volatile.

Bob

I agree. Phosphoric is what I have used and it works great with no "side effects"

[Passages]

An even safer, easier method is to buy a couple gallons of white vinegar.

Drain the raw water side as much as possible, then plug it back up. Leave the zincs in.
Top off raw water side with straight vinegar. I would pour it in the upper hose of the main Hx.
Go home.
Come back in a day or 2 and start the engine.

You will be amazed at the cloud of white scale that blows out the exhaust.

I will agree that this is not a complete cleaning and I still had to tear things down every few years, but this method was quick, cheap and effective.

[MikeP]

"I removed the zinc in the raw water pump and screwed a barbed fitting into it. attached was a 3' long plastic tube. I would siphon a gallon of straight muratic acid through this tube with the engine running at idle. Let it run for 5 or 10 minutes more to totally flush the acid out and reinstall the zinc."

I'm not quite understanding this process as described. If you attach a hose to the RW zinc fitting and syphon muriatic acid in at that point with the engine running, the acid will be through the system very quickly and out the exhaust. Is that actually what you are doing or am I misunderstanding something?

Though I've never removed the zinc fitting cap on the RW pump with the engine running I would have thought the pump would force water out the fitting rather than sucking something in. Guess not, huh?

[SKYCHENEY]

Some stabilizer installations use the RW pump zinc fitting as a return for cooling water. Others discharge it overboard.

So, I was guess from that type of installation that the water would flow in, not out from that fitting.

[robymayway]

hallo friends!!
really thanks for all your post....
I have done this job during this week end using acid phosporic&mix water.
INCREDIBLE!!!
I have created a close looping circuit leaving the mix to work correctly into each EC separatly for 2 hour each.

Last week temperature was around 190/195.....this afternoon 175/180°!!!

Fantastic final result...Job very easy.

Thanks from Italy...
roberto

[53hatt]

I have read through all of the old threads on this topic and have a simple question. Is this procedure to clean the heat exchangers for the raw water section of the exchanger or for the coolant side?

[SKYCHENEY]

Raw water side.

[53hatt]

I was very interested to try this procedure- so I went out and bought the bucket, bilge pump, hoses, and PVC fittings needed. My problem was when I went to Home Depot to buy the Ph-Ospho-RIC and was told they no longer carry it. I have tried ACE hardware and two paint supply store here in San Diego (Dunn Edwards and Frazee). No luck. Home Depot did have a gallon of "Phosphoric" but no ingredients were on the label. It did say it was intended for metal rust removal and cleaning concrete. Since this process seems to be well established on the forum with the Ph-Ospho-RIC in the ratio described, , I am reluctant to try a new chemical and not sure of what dilution to use if I went with the Home Depot product. I also did an internet search for the Ph-Ospho-RIC and it doesn't seem to exist anymore. The Home Depot people say the ingredients are no longer allowed to be sold. Any suggestions?

[Boatsb]

It's probably a California thing. There are some environmentally friendly cleaners available to do that. They probably work half as well for 4 x the cost but the tree huggers are happy.

[MikeP]

Use what REAL DD mechanics use - Muriatic Acid and Oxalic acid!

OK, kidding about the real mechanic part but Muriatic/Oxalic is what the DD service manual specifies for cleaning the HE and intercoolers. Both are at local hardware stores.

Of course maybe that's not available in CA either but that's hard to imagine since muriatic and oxalic are widely used for everything from concrete cleaning/etching to wood bleaching.

Muriatic is far stronger than phosphoric so it's more hazardous to use - though nothing that is beyond normal care and attention. The DD service manual contains the proportions - I don't recall them.

Another option is vinegar. It will take a lot longer but if you are pumping it through the system (as opposed to removing/dunking), who cares? Let it pump all day.

[SKYCHENEY]

That HD product is the right stuff. It doesn't matter what brand you use.

[Mario Tranquilein]

Hi: at how much rpm's the motor should run at 180/190? If I put her at 1,800 starboard motor goes to 210. I noticed mud in the fresh water part of the HE, my motors was sitting for 10 years. Could be the old mud water loose from the engine and end in the HE? Thanks

ps: at 1,300 they run at 170 starboard and 140 port