Anchor Pulpit rebuilds/core trouble foreward (and fixes)

[Genesis]

Gezuz, what is with the people who put some things together?

The teak inlays on my pulpit are wasted and require replacement. So today, out came the wood chisel to get the boards off.

They were 5200'd down, and then black cauk run around the edges. Ok. No problem there.

BUT - on assembly, the people involved screwed the boards down from the underside. Of course there's no way to get THAT off without pulling the entire pulpit!

WHY? The 5200 ain't going anywhere, and the screw embedment was all of less than 1/2" - into teak, that's gonig to do NOTHING.

Except, that is, make for a real serious PITA on this project, because now I'm going to have to take a dremel to about 30 screw shanks and cut them off before I can replace the boards!

Grrrr..... (just venting here)

[captddis]

Karl,
I felt your pain. I did mine in 03. While you have the teak off you might want to check the pulpit and deck core carefully. The pulpit has three layers of plywood under it that is untreated and sits flat on the deck. Mine was mush as was a 3x3 section of the core in the deck. It is a common problem. My friends 85 45 has the same problem. The main problem is leaks around the windlass and exposed end grain and balsa where the chain feeds through. I rebuilt the pulpit and saturated the wood with West epoxy and replaced the deck core from inside the rope locker. The core was Wested also. Then all holes had the exposed core sealed. Most of the screws in the teak inlay broke. The new inlay was just stuck down with 5200 and no screws. I also painted the pulpit while it was off. The job took me 2 months and was miserable. A local yard quoted another 46 owner 10,000 to repair his. I know why. Good Luck,
Dave

[Genesis]

... in the anchor locker is ok. It was one of the things I looked at BEFORE I bought the boat. There was no way I wanted that problem.

I don't know if I'm lucky or smart, but I don't have trouble there. Now the plywood under the pulpit may be mush, but I have no way to find out without pulling the entire thing - and while that'd be bad, getting the windless out just to START the job is going to be a Battle Royale. That beast is HEAVY!

I may just do the teak.... or I may decide to pull it all apart. You know how boat projects are....

[captddis]

Hopefully your core is ok.I sounded mine when I bought the boat and it sounded good. It was not until I removed the rusted windlass with a sawzall that the damage was apparent. It seemed like a small area under the windlass, but as I started to cut it spread. Hatteras did not fill the kerfs between the sheets of balsacore and it made water channels for migration. When I got good balsa I would stop cutting, a couple days later it would look damp. A little more digging and bad core was found behind good core. This is part of the reason it took 2 months I wanted to be sure it was dry before sealing it up. I used saturated marine ply for the area under the pulpit I felt it would be something better to fasten to . All the kerfs were filled also. Weather it was luck or smarts hope it is dry. It seems to be a common problem.

[Captcoop]

I had the boat yard dig out the teak on my pulpit and pour an epoxy mixture back to the level of the wood and coat it with non skid. One less teak area to maintain. One note it takes a lot of epoxy so if it's a do it yourself project be prepared to work fast. Good Luck

[Genesis]

... the two rear mounting bolts are at the rear of each of the teak channels!

If you fill that with epoxy you ain't NEVER getting that pulpit off without destroying it.

My deck core is ok, and the hawse hole for the anchor line has had the core edges epoxied.

The more I look at it the more I'm convinced that someone had it off somewhere in the past before I bought the boat. The screws are in no discernable pattern and some have badly hosed holes while others, right near them, are tight in the base. That suggests that someone had the problem at some time in the past, tore it apart, "fixed" it, but put (new) screws back in.

Barf.

I'm going to fill all the screw holes after grinding them out with epoxy, and then lay new teak. I ain't taking the windless off nor playing with the deck unless I have a reason to, and I've checked the underside of the deck inside the rope locker and its sound.

[Bob Bradley]

I have some softness in my pulpit (and probably the deck underneath it as well), so I'm in the process of removing the Ideal windlass. That is a major PITA. Ideal suggests that, in theory, one can simply slide the capstan and wildcat off the shaft, but good friggin luck in practice. I got the capstan off with a gear puller, but now I'm having to have a custom designed puller made to get the wildcat off.

And this is just the price of admission to start rooting around inside the pulpit and deck. And when I'm done, I'm not even sure I'll be able to reuse the windlass, since the under deck plate is coming apart in chunks of rust.

Barf is right!

[Genesis]

Ok, the pulpit is coming off.

I found a soft spot under the pulpit in the locker when I went to pull the line to do the hawse-pipe area.

Its not out of control - yet - but it ain't gonna get there either. Off it comes. The rubrail and bow rails were easily disassembled from the pulpit and bow rail tube. No big deal there.

BTW, the windless isn't bad to get apart. Here's the deal.

1. There should be a "manual breaker bar" on the boat. If not, you need to find or make one. It engages the two pin-holes on the top of the capstan cover.

2. Remove the nut and washer on top.

3. Unscrew the capstan cover. The capstan is fit with a key - pull it. It will come off. If its sticky, use PB Blaster and lever it up with a pair of screwdrivers until it comes free. Remove the key from the keyway.

4. The wildcat is a FRICTION DRIVE - you'll see the friction disks once you have the capstan off. Pull that. Again, it should come off. There is no keying on this; if its stuck, its corrosion on the shaft. Liberal PB Blaster use will take care of that; be careful not to get it on the friction discs unless you intend to replace them anyway.

5. There is a base plate under that which is ALSO on a keyway (separate key). Pull THAT. If the key sticks (it did on mine), use the breaker bar to hold it up and drive the key down on the shaft using a drift. Remove the base plate and key.

6. Now pull the circlip and the windless body is free from the bottom. Go inside, shut down the power to it, remove the electrical leads, and drop it. Careful - its freaking HEAVY!

The anchor roller plate and windless are coming physically off tomorrow, and if I get lucky, I will be able to get the pulpit off tomorrow as well. If not, it'll be another day or two of work to get through the sealant and get it free from the hull.

Then its time to "drill, dry and fill."

I'm debating using Starboard instead of Marine XL ply for the build-up between deck and pulpit on replacement. Anyone have any thoughts on that? Its rot-proof and quite solid - I'd think it would work really well and be damn near impossible to damage.

[captddis]

The problem I have with Starboard for this type of application is that nothing sticks to it. The wood was glassed to the pulpit and the deck has a crown. to get full contact and to not leave any void for future water to get into I mixed up a epoxy mush and after putting wax paper on the deck smeared it with mush then temporarily set the pulpit down in it. The plywood was already saturated with epoxy and should outlast me. Then the pulpit was removed caulked and bolted down.
This way there is a perfect fit to the deck.
It was amazing how hard it was to make the new mounting holes for the windlass, drilling through the epoxy. Hope this helps, Dave

[Genesis]

Now I understand the original construction details. Got it. It didn't make sense before.

So basically the ply is a "core" inside the pulpit, except, of course, they didn't bother to epoxy seal it.

Great. I bet digging it all out is a lot of fun. Grrrr...

Oh well, I needed a nice project. Sounds like I got one.

I may do the "drill and fill from the top" deal on the deck, depending on how bad the core is. Cutting the bottom open is arguably a better choice, but that's a royal bitch of a job - I hate working on my back, especially when cutting fiberglass.

[Bob Bradley]

Keep us posted, Karl. I'm probably about 3 weeks behind you on the same project. My windlass must be a slightly different model, as my capstan was not keyed.

[BEC53]

I just pulled my windlass to have it converted to chain. GalleyMaid just sent it back and I received it yesterday. Anyway...if you have a line only model (BB), it is slightly different than the line and chain model (BBHW).

On the BB model there are no holes for the manual wrench on top. Just remove the top bolt and slide off the capstan. You will see two snap rings--these do not need to come off. I just loosened the bolts from underneath and then used a length of 2" pipe to fit over the shaft. Take a long handled sledge hammer and hit that pipe to drive the windlass down through the deck plate.

Luckily since my boat has always been stored under cover, I don't have any soft spots to deal with, but my new deck plate is 2" bigger in diameter and I will now have 6 bolts instead of four holding it in. So....I'll have to drill new holes and maybe make up a new shim block for the under side.

What should I do about the old holes? They'll be covered, but I think I should seal them and maybe fill them with something.

[Bob Bradley]

I would soak them with a penetrating epoxy like Smith's CPES to prevent water from wicking into the wood, then fill them with 5200. Also bed the entire area well with polysulfide caulk. Snug the bolts finger tight when you first install them, then tighten them with a wrench the following day, once the caulk has set up. This gives you a gasket-like effect.

[Genesis]

.... ok, now I'm a bit stuck.

My windless is an Ideal, Model AACW12-5

Got the entire top part of it apart ok, capstan, gypsy, etc. Below, I loosened up the bolts - but she won't move.

So what am I missing? I see nothing holding it on the top, and nothing holding it on the bottom.

Can't find Ideal any more in Riviera Beach either - are they still there?

Gotta get it out in order to get the pulpit off, of course...

[Bob Bradley]

Ideal is in East Greenwich, RI. Phone there is (401) 884-2550. I found them very helpful. They faxed me the schematic for my unit. On mine, I had to drive screwdrivers between the underdeck plate and the underside of the deck. It was well caulked in place.

[Bob Bradley]

By the way, if you get creative, and try to lighten the unit by removing the motor which mounts horizontally off the side of the underdeck unit, you'll find it is full of heavy messy (in my case very rusty) machine oil. Would you like to know how I found out? Yecchhh.

[Genesis]

... they told me how they go together.

BTW, here's an interesting thing - they swear mine (from the way its together) is a Galley Maid, but the data plate clearly says "Ideal"!

Apparently, according to Ideal, there have been some hijinks going on between the companies with regards to stealing designs and such....

Fun fun!

[BEC53]

I couldn't believe it when Rick @ GalleyMaid told me to hit it with a sledge hammer, but that was the only way it was coming out. It had rust holding the case to the deck plate and 5200 filling the hole from top to bottom. It also had 5200 in and around the lower shim block. You just have to be careful not to hit the top bearing and seal. Use a piece of pipe to slide over the shaft so that the pipe only makes contact with the housing, then whack it. I even welded a plate on the top of the pipe that I used to make for a nice even surface to strike.

[Bob Bradley]

On mine, "Ideal Windlass, East Greenwich, RI" was actually cast into the unit (the capstan, if my memory serves me).

[Genesis]

... its CAST into the deck plate, AND the lower housing (in the chain locker)

Nonetheless, Ideal SWEARS they did not make it, by the model number on the data plate. They also identified (correctly) the difference in the way the base plate is keyed - they say theirs is pinned, and Galley Maid's is keyed.

Mine is keyed.

I'm going to go over there and see if I can identify the separation between the two pieces, and figure out what I need to put over the top to get the purchase to whack it, along with liberally spraying PB Blaster on the joint.

There's an O-ring seal around the shaft which I'm sure will need replaced, but I definitely don't want to damage that area.

[BEC53]

Genesis,

I'm looking at my GalleyMaid manual right now and it shows AACW as one of their model #'s. It shows it as a 600lb pull unit configured for line and chain. Maybe someone replaced the an Ideal and just left the old deck plate there. Is there a sticker on your electrical control box? Well....I guess they could have even used the Ideal controls with the new GM gearbox. Who knows???

[BEC53]

.... to leave a nut on the end of one bolt when you whack it. You don't want that monster breaking free and crashing down in the locker .

[Genesis]

... first, the PLATE on the MOTOR says "IDEAL". Its the one where the part number is! And it shows "CAP 600", which would be 600lbs, I presume.

The Ideal folks confirmed that the configuration of parts above the deck makes it a Galley Maid.

BIZARRE. Only thing I can come up with is that its a bastard child of TWO windlesses - someone took a GM gearbox and married an Ideal motor to it, although that doesn't explain the data plate on the motor.

I'm not taking any of the nuts fully off. I'm going to back 'em off but leave them all on the carriage bolts, whack the thing, then go down in the chain locker, remove the motor (to make the gearcase lighter) and extract the rest. That assumes there isn't some really good reason (like its going to leak oil all over me) not to remove the motor first.

[Genesis]

Becs, if you can, do you have a fax? If so I'd love a copy of that manual at 850-897-9364.

Thanks in advance if you've got the ability.....

[BEC53]

Sure, I'll fax it in the morning from my office. And...the GM windlass uses a stub shaft which the motor mates up to. So, you don't have to worry about oil when you remove it. The gearbox is separate and sealed from the motor.

Good luck

[Genesis]

... that'll be a help.

I didn't see a gasket, so I assumed the motor could be pulled without incident. Already loosened the nuts a bit and it didn't drip - glad to hear that there's not an O-ring on the collar or something that was waiting to give me a "surprise"! :rollin

[doc g]

The windlass on my 61 is apparently some sort of a "bastard child" also. The deck plate and related deck hardware clearly say IDEAL ,but the gearbox ,motor,controller are GM.When I rebuilt mine (BBHW) there were a bunch of custom (?)shims,bushings,above deck which neither company would claim as there own. Be careful when you take it apart because mine did not match either Ideal or GM for the above deck hardware. I had luckily made a diagram so when I put it back together,3 weeks later, I knew how it had to go. I would also replace the clutch plates on the chain gypsy while you are at it otherwise you may not be able to tighten the ass'y enough so the chain gypsy does'nt slip. According to both manufacturers you are supposed to back that big capstan nut off to free- spool the anchor chain out or the gearbox gets messed up as mine did. Good luck!

[Genesis]

I use a combination chain/line rode, and most of it is line, so I just do a "drop it" deal for sets.

The funny thing is that the windless has both 'up' and 'down' deck switches though, and the motor is designed for both directions. Kinda odd for a 'single acting' (no power down) model.

Oh well, I'm headed over to do the deed of whacking it now; will get a good look at what I've got once its out. I intend to pull the gearbox covers and go through it all, change the shaft seal, and clean it up while she's apart.

[Bob Bradley]

Interesting. Mine is pinned, not keyed, so I guess I have the real "Ideal" windlass. I wish I had the stubbed link between the motor and the gearbox. I received a lovely Christening of mucky, rusty gear oil. What an ungodly mess! Fortunately I managed to confine it to the chain locker, and the chain had already been removed. If it ever had drooled into 300' of chain, I don't know what I would have done. As it was, it took a half dozen oil absorb pads and a can of Brake Kleen to clean up the mess.

Let me know what you find inside the pulpit, as I believe I will need to replace the core in mine.
Bob

[ronbecky]

When I bought my hatt last year the windlass didn't work and would trip the breaker when I turned it on. After banging it out as directed by a Galley Maid tech I discovered a large crack in the housing and all the oil was gone. Inside was a mass of rust. I cleaned it all out and replaced the housing and all the bearings etc. Total cost of parts was around $1000. The housing being most of it $850 or so. It works great now. The manual does say to loosen the large nut on top to drop anchor. I tried this a few times but it is a pain to have to carry this big wrench out to loosen then again to tighten to raise anchor. I even have a remote switch at the helm for operating from there. If you have to go out on deck anyway whats the purpose of having it. I just tightened the nut and use the foot switches lo lower and raise now. It doesn't seem to be a problem. The manual says the windlass is not designed to have a load on in the down direction. I don't consider dropping the chain a load.
I used my scissors jack from my car to lower and raise the windlass. It made the job a lot easier. I removed the DC motor first for testing before I realized what was wrong with it. There is an interesting connection between the motor and gear box.It is a disc made up of layers of rubber and fabric just like the sidewall of a tire. There are 2 holes on each side for matching pins on the drive motor and gear. I have model AACW along with the manual and prints if anyone needs them.

[Bob Bradley]

I fish wrecks a lot, so getting the anchor to the bottom quickly is necessary in order to anchor accurately.

Since I have to go up to the bow to anchor anyway, I usually wrap the chain once around the capstan, and use my foot against the chain to control the drop speed. Once I've paid out the length I want (I've marked it every 50'), I slip the chain into the wildcat.

[doc g]

Apparently the windlass was designed with the thrust washers and bearings only on the "load" side of everything in the gearbox. That would be the side of the drive shaft which drives the worm gear. If you drop the anchor using the motor it loads the shaft the opposite way and directly stresses the driven gear (bronze) on the main shaft (the capstan shaft). I was told by the GM people it is OK to "let some line / chain out " with the motor but to use the clutch and drop with the gypsy free- wheeling or expect to rebuild it again. I know it is crazy . It is also a PIA to readjust that damn capstan nut every time also, especially when manuvering the boat and trying to pull the anchor and then you realize the chain gypsy is slipping . Not a great design IMHO.
I've come to the point that if I anchor in 20' or less I motor it out ,if in deeper water free drop it. The gearbox is not that difficult to rebuild . But of course you know when it will mess up .......on vacation when you had planned to gunkhole for 2 weeks!!!! I actually bought the extra gears to have on board.

[BEC53]

I just had my GM upgraded to chain. Why do they send me all of the stuff to make it reverse if they don't want me to use it that way? That makes alot of sense to send another foot switch and a new control box and then I find out that I shouldn't even run it in reverse. Why did I spend the money on all this stuff? My Ideal on my old boat worked great for years and I didn't have to do that.

[Genesis]

Ok, so I got the Windless off. A piece of pipe, some PB Blaster, and a BFH did that. The amount of crud was exteme and the backing piece of plywood was wasted up underneath where you couldn't see it. Looked perfectly fine from the edges - trashed internally.

Definitely the right move to take this all apart...

So then I pull the piece of bowrail around the pulpit, the back two bolts, and figure its just sealant now, and a few screwdrivers and putty knives will get it off.

Nope.

Some numb-nuts (one of the previous owners?) apparently saw goop oozing out from under the platform. So what did they do? Wick in some EPOXY.

The pulpit coming off (slowly), but its ripping the gelcoat off the deck under the pulpit in the process. The only way I can come up with is to drive screwdrivers under the edge, working my way around, and literally tearing the joint apart. Fortunately it appears that whoever did this didn't use MUCH epoxy, and it didn't wick in very far (probably because the wood under there was sopping wet)

There's going to be significant cosmetic deck damage as a consequence, but that's not a huge deal, since it will be covered by the pulpit when I'm done. Its also nearly certain that some former owner did this, because there's no evidence that the epoxy got into the cloth - only the gelcoat and thus the skin-out (chopped strand) is coming up. I have to assume that if Hatt did this on original install they would have sanded off the gelcoat first, and there'd be no way I could get it apart at all.

THANK GOD it wasn't "done right". I'll sand it down, may lay another layer of glass cloth over it, epoxy that all in, fair it, and be done with that - but getting this thing apart is turning into a REAL pain in the ass.

Thank God all this will be hidden when the pulpit goes back on, or it would be MUCH worse and probably involve repainting the entire deck!

BTW, there was no indication that it was epoxied until I started running a screwdriver around to break the seal on the 5200 - and started seeing CSM and gelcoat in the crack behind the old 5200!

No turning back now - its gotta come apart.

[doc g]

I suppose that it also has to with the size of the anchor , whether or not it is all chain rode or chain and line rode etc. I think most people use the reverse to let out chain all the time . It will be interesting to see how long mine will last. If the worm gear did not fall off the shaft in mine I would have never known. Personally I think it is dangerous to free fall drop it anyway,the chain can ball up and get stuck in the hawse pipe or a link may not seat properly in the chain gypsy and it kind of de-rails the chain and can get stuck under the gypsy. I have a 76 # cqr and 400' of chain so it is pretty heavy . Also the clutch does not seem to have much lattitude for being loose enough to let it out at a leisurely pace,it is either barreling out or not letting any (chain) out. Maybe because my clutch plates are new, I don't know. Anyway most folks I've seen drop with the motor.

[BEC53]

I'm getting ready to put the windlass back in and I realized that I will also be putting in a hawse pipe for the chain and a gate stopper. Where do I mount these? I see that I should have at least 150 degrees of chain on the gypsy, but is there an optimal spot for the pipe? Also, how far out do I mount the stopper? And what should I do about backing it, as it will be supporting quite a load? Any measurements from another 53 pulpit or pictures showing the locations would be a great help. Thanks

[Genesis]

Much depends on the design of the stopper you use.

If its a "through" style (the chain must run through it all the time) then you mount it forward of the windless in the path where the chain runs. Make sure there's a clear "free" setting for it. If its a "drop in" style (you can drop the chain in without threading it through when you want to use it) then mount it just to the side of that path, but close enough to the normal running line that the load is not significantly off-center.

Make damn sure its WELL backed. I personally would stick a big fat aluminum plate under the deck as a backing plate for it. Realize that the entire load of the anchor will be taken by this thing, and if it fails, it is likely to rip off parts of your deck! Of course this will become apparent in heavy weather when doing something about it will be very dangerous.

What I do with my combination rode is warp the line around the windless capstan but cleat it off on a bow cleat, which is well-backed. If I had a cleat on the roller mount I might use that - but I don't. I may add one while I have this all apart.....

[Trojan]

I waited until I could hang the anchor and drawn it up tight.Then I mounted it where the anchor would stay tight and I still could get the stopper free.I don't like my anchor dancing in the pulpit.Bill

[BEC53]

It is the drop in type and it is really heavy-duty. It has six bolt holes in it. I do plan to see how the chain runs before I mount it, but I wondered if it should be close to the windlass or closer to the area where the chain goes through the pulpit. Maybe it will depend on where I best have access to secure it properly.

[Trojan]

I would think you would want it closer to the windlass.If you were to get the chain to tight and engage the stopper it would be easier to find some slack if the chain was longer between the anchor and stopper.Plus your farther from the edge in bad weather.Mine is back on the deck.I don't know.Just food for thought.Bill

[doc g]

The hawse pipe on mine is mounted @ 270 degrees ( 0 degrees being midline of the boat forward) about 8 -10 inches from where the chain trails off the windlass. The chain stopper is to stop the chain only. When anchored you use a nylon snubber with a chain hook and cleat it off on the bow cleats to take the stress off the deck hardware, ie the windlass . I also run a piece of nylon with a snap hook from the anchor shackle to a bow cleat to hold it in the stowed position, just to be sure. There was good article in one of the boating mags recently about this; poss. Power and Motoryacht?

[captbuddy]

Where do we get the Nylon snubber with chain hook. All I have been using is just the chain stopper on my 42' LRC. It has the fip down deal that stops the chain. I like the idea of the chain hook attached to the cleat.
Thanks,
captbuddy

[ronbecky]

They have them at Home Depot. That's where I got mine.

[doc g]

I made mine with a 3/4 inch nylon dockline. Splice a galvinized or ss thimble in one end then use an anchor shackle to put the chain hook on the thimble. Simply cleat off the other end. This line will take a beating with all the chafe at the anchor roller assy , you could chafe guard it or just replace when necessary. The best way is to use two in heavy weather , so you can cleat off to both bow cleats and the stress is distributed evenly. Let out enough chain so that the boat is riding solely on the line(s) . Without a snubber that slack comes out of the chain all at once and can wreak some serious havoc on things . If it doesn't dislodge the hook it will dislodge some other stuff like the windlass, hawse pipe,chain stopper,bow pulpit etc.

[Genesis]

In heavy weather, by the way, a very short piece of line is not enough.

If an all-chain rode comes taut the resulting stress will rip whatever is next-weakest out.

All-chain has some desireable qualities, but its dangerous in the snot.

[Bob Bradley]

Karl,
I finally got the offending windlass off the boat yesterday. The steel under-deck plate is wasted. Rusted to virtually nothing. It appears that I'm going to have to have it cut off, and have a new one fabricated and welded back on. If I had any sense, I'd just replace the unit, but it does work, and they aren't cheap.

I'll be removing the pulpit next Sunday, to repair it and whatever needs to be repaired in the area of the deck around the hawse holes as well. Isn't boating fun?

[Genesis]

My pulpit is off. Got it off today.

I'm pissed off now, at Hatteras, the yard that installed the Windlass (probably NOT Hatteras, as I'll explain here in a minute) and whichever of the rat bastard previous owners of the boat who tried to band-aid the problem.

First, Hatteras.

The pulpit has the layers of plywood between the underside of it and the deck. Hatteras built up the plywood ON THE DECK, used REGULAR plywood, DID NOT seal it, and then, to top it all off, DROVE FREAKING SCREWS THROUGH THE STACK INTO THE CORE OF THE DECK WITHOUT SEALING THAT EITHER!

How do I KNOW Hatt did this? Because the screws are stll there, and they are Hatteras' SIGNATURE square-drive screws.

Hatt did, however, caulk liberally around the anchor roller assembly bolts - no water intruded through there. However, even if nobody had screwed up later, the core STILL would have eventually failed and so would have the wood, since they drilled the holes in the deck and into the core. Thanks guys.

The yard that installed the windless sealed NOTHING. Not the backing piece of plywood, not the deck penetrations, nothing. NO caulk was in evidence on those bolts. They hastened the damage.

Then, some bright bulb in the past decided to INJECT epoxy into the gap between the pulpit and deck, rather than pull it off and fix it when it started to rot out under there. THAT bonded the assembly partially to the deck, which made getting it out a LOT of fun. Fortunately, they didn't take it off and scuff-sand the deck FIRST, or I would have NEVER gotten it apart. The skin-out mat came off from the deck along with the pulpit in some places, but that's no big deal, since the repair will all be under the pulpit when I'm done, and its nothing that some cloth and epoxy won't fix.

The wood under the pulpit is wasted.

The windless is not in bad shape. I will be able to clean it up and be ok there. The steel is not in great shape, but not condemned either - so I'm all right in that regard. The gears and motor appear to be fine - so that's just some cleanup with a wire wheel, some cold galvanizing to prevent future corrosion, and a new topcoat of paint.

The core right under the pulpit is wasted.

The top of the deck under the pulit is coming off in the next couple of days, I will dig out the bad core, soak the entire mess in penetrating epoxy beyond what I can cut out, cut a new piece of marine ply and soak IT in epoxy, scuff sand the inside of the inner laminate so I get a good bond, lay it in there to replace the core, set it with epoxy filled with microballoons, and then put the cap back on, grind a nice "V" and lay a couple of layers of fiberglass cloth in the joint, then fair it all in.

The pulpit is going to get all the crap under it stripped, sanded down, the edges fixed up with marine-tex (since I dug it up getting it apart), new shoring installed, soaked in epoxy, the entire thing dry-fit with filled epoxy (with wax paper between deck and pulpit so it doesn't adhere), then pulled apart, a bead of 5200 run around the outside edge, and set back. Bolt-holes re-drilled, bolts re-inserted, new backing plates installed (with them faired in using MarineTex) snugged up and we're done.

That thing will NEVER leak water into the core again, nor will it ever deteriorate underneath.

This is how it should have been done the FIRST time.

Beware if you own a Hattie with a bolted-on pulpit, as it appears that the root cause of this nonsense was improper installation of that pulpit at the factory.

If they did it to my boat they probably did it to yours, and if you don't take care of it you can bet it will eventually destroy the deck core entirely. That will be an amazingly expensive repair, if its even economically feasable on your boat. Don't fall victim to this one - if you haven't pulled the pulpit yet, consider doing it NOW and taking care of it before you get a nasty surprise!

[BEC53]

Karl,

After I removed my windlass, I checked the deck for spongy spots--all looks good. My deck appears to be foam cored and when I look through the hole that the windlass came out of, there is a big empty space between the pulpit and deck. Maybe someone had your pulpit off before and added the plywood then, because mine is hollow. I know many old Hatteras dealers used square drive screws over the years.

Anyway, I am at the point that I'm ready to re-install the rebuilt windlass and I think I should be okay. I figure that even if the pulpit sits on some untreated, unsoaked plywood that I cannot see, it should be alright as long as it is sealed in good with 5200 around all the edges, bolt holes, etc. which it appears to be right now. Does this sound reasonable?

[Genesis]

Water WILL get in there.

Consider this - if you take water up over the bow, especially if you ever take GREEN water there (and some day you WILL!), it will be forced into the gaps between the pulpit and rail.

I don't care how well you 5200 it, if there is even one millimeter of gap anywhere its going to get wet in there.

And once it does, since it can't drain, it will rot the underlayment.

A gap or soft underlayment is very bad. Someone probably removed the plywood backing on your boat. Its really, really important that the pulpit to deck connection be solid, because the load there is extreme, and if you get flexure there you will break free any seal you can form through the deck and core.

The result will be water intrusion, and if that area is perpetually wet (and it will be) you're right back to having trouble again.

BTW, foam core is no better than balsa and in many ways is worse. While balsa can rot and foam can't, that's not the end of it. Water does not compress. If it gets in there, as the deck skins move the water acts like a little prybar and forces apart the bond between skin and core. Then when it relaxes it sucks in more water (negative pressure), and the process repeats until the entire thing disbonds.

The nice thing with balsa (or plywood, which I don't think Hatt used anywhere) is that balsa will soak up epoxy. So for MINOR water intrusion you can drill holes to dry it out, suck the moisture out (shop vac, etc) so it dries, then inject thinned epoxy. It will soak through the balsa and harden rock-hard, effectively fixing it in place without having to rip it all apart.

Foam does not absorb epoxy. So if you DO get a disbonded core from the outside layers, you have to rip that entire part of the deck out to fix it. This is a major bitch.

For major core trouble on balsa you have to do that anyway, but a lot of minor problems, if caught quickly enough, can be fixed with very hassle or trouble.

You cannot tell if you've got core trouble accurately until the pulpit is off, unless its quite bad. If not, then count your blessings now, seal ALL penetrations with epoxy, and make damn sure you don't make any new ones or that you can't break open any of the ones you just sealed.

If you've got your pulpit off I'd build it up as I describe underneath so you have a solid surface from the deck all the way up to the top of the pulpit. Encapsulate the entire thing in epoxy so it can't get wet, and you'll never have trouble with it or the core.

This job is enough of a bitch that I really don't want to have to do it twice.

[Genesis]

.. I don't think the dealer did the original sin. I think Hatt did.

Here's why - the windlass was DEFINITELY installed wrong.

The PULPIT and anchor roller appears to have been factory. With the single exception of the screws into the deck it was done right, or at least close enough to right that it wasn't where trouble began. But the screws were still wrong.

There's no evidence that the pulpit has ever been removed. My deck has been repainted, and the original finish is obviously underneath.

Hatt confirmed for me (when I bought the boat) that commissioning was done at one of their dealers, as their commissioning files were empty. So was detail to know what OEM gear was on the boat when it left. It appears that the pulpit and roller were factory installed from both the rubrail and deck rail assemblies, but the windless was prewired only. It appears that a dealer added the windless. The date codes on the windless and such all match with this scenario; its pretty clear that the windless install was NOT done by Hatt. It also matches with the difference in procedures that are obvious from what was done.

Obviously 20 years down the road there's no way to know exactly what transpired, sans records which are not available. However, what's clear is that the pulpit and windless were installed by different people and at different times. It would make no sense for a dealer to install a pulpit without a windless, all things considered - but it does make sense to order a boat with a pulpit and a prewire for a windless, then have the dealer install that piece, either for convenience (e.g. you don't want one installed now, but the second owner does, etc) or because you just want something a bit different than the factory option.

Regardless, this is something that those who own these boats need to pay close attention to, because if I had not caught this when I did I might have ended up with an extremely severe and expensive problem, instead of a pain in the butt. Its sneaky, in that sounding of the deck right at the edge of the pulpit comes back clean, but underneath once the pulpit is off its mush.

As such a surveyor would probably miss this!

If your windless is damaged from water intrusion down the steel part I'd pull the pulpit off and check, because if you have water there, you have the possibility of water in the core. If you didn't have some numbnuts epoxy it to the deck its not hard to get the pulpit off, and if you DO have a problem fixing it now is the wise course of action.

[BEC53]

I'm still skeptical of an original install with screws through the deck. Maybe it had a windlass from the factory, but someone else worked on it later, installed the plywood in between, and replaced parts of the windlass with another brand.

I'm almost certain mine has not been off before and it is, as I said before, hollow between the deck and the top of the pulpit. There are no signs of any removal of blocking in there--no holes, caulk, glue, etc.--just original painted deck. It does look like a solid piece from the back of the coping rail forward though. This is vintage 1985, stored in a covered boathouse since new, but, like you, I can't be 100% sure of what has or has not been done either.

Anyway...good luck on your project. It sounds like you'll never have to touch it again.

[mike]

www.smithandcompany.org/ (http://www.smithandcompany.org/) best epoxy around for fixing your type of problem. have used it for 25 years, it will displace the water in the core material.
mike

[Genesis]

That's exactly what I am going to use; I'm already aware of it.

I've done some repairs with regular West System epoxy, both "neat" and thinned with acetone, and neither penetrated all that well.

This stuff does.

[Genesis]

The pulpit itself is hollow in the front. It is two-piece, and intended to never come apart - it is glassed together, but definitely two pieces forward of the coping rail.

Behind it its hollow underneath, and was clearly not originally designed as filled. Its also clear that someone jacked with it, as the epoxy that was used was wicked in - not built up and cleanly done. It is not well-bonded to the pulpit, for example, and if a yard had pulled it and repaired this they would have roughed up the inside of the pulpit and insured a good bond - they did not. Its pretty clear that the epoxy stuff was done by someone - probably a previous owner - to try to stop brown sludge from "leaking" out from under the pulpit. The sludge, of course, was the plywood rotting away...

I guess its possible that the factory didn't put the pulpit on, but those screws into the deck are awfully suspicious, and they're phosphor-bronze too - not stainless - which is another Hattie factory thing. Never mind that the exact same pulpit is present on a half-dozen other Hatts of the same general era (spanning many years) that I've seen around here. There are two Hatts spanning more than 10 years in my marina with the SAME pulpit! What are the odds of a bunch of random yards getting the exact same piece, and fitting it the exact same way? I'm not sure I buy that one...

Anyway, whoever did it originally, its gonna get fixed right this time.... It just annoys me to no end that this sort of stupidity is present on a boat like this - no matter who the responsible party was.....

Ah well, in the grand scheme of things its not a major issue - just a serious hassle.

[ttom02]

Another idea for heavy weather anchoring with an all chain rode that I use, is to buy two nylon lifting slings - mine are 15' long each. The type that are used to lift heavy items with a crane etc. Join the two together with the chain hook, fasten to anchor chain and connect each end over your spring cleats on the bow. Then just let out on your chain rode until it has slack in it. Now all of the load is spread into two points, and you tend to sail much less. This drops your scope down below the bow considerably also. The nylon slings have just enought stretch to work well.
Tom

[Bob Bradley]

Karl,
I have trouble believing that Hatt would have simply screwed non-marine plywood into the deck. It's just not their style of work. I'd be more likely to suspect that the same guy who did the sloppy epoxy job may have had a hand in it. Remember that anyone can buy a kit full of original screws, and someone doing a job that slopily would probably just use what he had at hand, rather than go out and buy some ss wood screws.

Also, whoever installed my windlass didn't use any caulk either. The main "Ideal" embossed plate was set in place completely dry. Neither was there any caulk on the windlass mounting bolts. Dry as a bone. Neither was there any caulk between the underside of the deck and the round thick plywood pad that separates the windlass from the underdeck. It popped off clean as a whistle. This is precisely why I have a ball of rust for a windlass right now.

With respect to the hollows in the pulpit, I don't think that they present much of a structural problem. The lion's share of the stress is absorbed by the heavy roller mount, which is bolted thru the solid portion, and back plated well.

I do have one concern with your approach of just replacing the deck core material and reinstalling the pulpit and roller mount. I would be somewhat worried about the structual integrity of the deck at the point where your new material meets the old material.

I will be doing a similar repair, and I plan to add a substantial backing plate to the underdeck, inside the rode locker, extending beyond the point where my new materal meets Hatteras' original material. This will probably be either a piece of white oak, soaked in cpes or a large piece of aluminum stock the same thickness as the existing backing plates.

In any event, I'm attacking my pulpit this Sunday, so I'll let you know if I find a stack of crappy plywood screwed beneath mine.

[Genesis]

... with the deck repair process.

I'm going to cut off the top skin layer and remove the sodden core to the limit of my ability with wood chisels. I'll get all the wasted stuff out of there, however far back that goes.

THEN I will soak the open edges with CPES until it will not take any more, and follow THAT with epoxy resin until THAT will not absorb further.

I'm then going to fit new core (this time being marine plywood), bedding it against the old core material using microballoon-thickened epoxy, to insure there are no voids between the two. The new core will likewise be soaked in CPES and then epoxy, again, until saturated.

The top deck piece will then be reattached, again, all epoxy, V-grooved, and glassed into the existing deck with a couple layers of fiberglass.

The other option would be to laminate up solid fiberglass to fill the deck gap, which is roughly 3/4". That would make that section of deck tank-like, but approacing it that way would be radical overkill. It does, however, have a certain appeal, as a friend of mine has a roll of the very coarse roving very similar to what Hatt used for their hulls originally..... all I'd have to do is buy the mat for the intervening layers, and of course all the epoxy...

Once that's complete the deck where the repair has been made will be massively stronger than it was originally - by several orders of magnitude. That area will also be heavier, but that's ok - the entire area involved is about 2' on a side, which isn't all that much.

The bottom of the pulpit will have new shoring installed, again, CPES-soaked and then resin-infused. Once installed and the pulpit has been cleaned up and refinished I will dry-fit the pulpit to the boat, filling any gaps with paste-consistency epoxy so that the stress is taken up evenly by the entire deck are on which it rests. It'll then be pulled off and the paste allowed to cure up.

I will then fair in a backing system under the deck using the same methodology - infuse it with CPES, then soak it in resin to insure that it cannot get water in it, dry-fit it with a layer of putty-consistency epoxy to insure that there are no gaps and the load is taken evenly across the entire contact surface, and then put it all back together.

The original design for the stress is to take most of the load at the caprail (with the pulpit sitting on it) and roller mounting bolts, with the rest taken on the windless bolts. Its a three-point load-distribution system as originally designed. The original backing plates are aluminum and for the roller bolts not very large - IMHO, not adequate. I intend to do better in that regard.

I'm convinced the wood I dug out is original going back to the delivery of the boat, but whether Hatt or the dealer did it is obviously impossible to determine. In addition there is the obvious addition of the windless by someone other than whoever installed the roller and pulpit.

However, the basic design is definitely bogus and the root cause of the problem.

An interesting note is that upon digging out all the rotted wood I found an active termite colony (!) in the pulpit plywood. There is no evidence of it extending into the boat itself, but the wood was being consumed from the top down inside the pulpit by the little buggers. So in addition to being rotted, it was being eaten! Also of interest is that the original build on the pulpit included two thin shoring members of plywood laminate on the inside of each side rail, those WERE infused with epoxy, and while the infusion was not complete they're not in bad shape for the most part. The center section of plywood which had zero resin applied to it, other than being epoxied to the underside of the fiberglass pulpit was destroyed and I have now cleaned off the inside of the pulpit down to bare fiberglass.

Also of interest is that whoever originally fit the pulpit did the dry fit part using filled epoxy (e.g. microballoons, etc) and that remains stable and rock hard. If the previous owner had not run epoxy up inside there in an attempt to stem the leaks, it would have come off easily without deck damage. As he did, it was "fun" to get apart. However, without that fairing compound it would have likely been nearly impossible to get the pulpit off at all as there would have been nothing solid against which to pry while extricating it.

[jim rosenthal]

...was perfect. For example, the bronze screws that held my bow rail stanchions down, screwed into that steel plate which is laminated into the toe rail, which all electrolyzed below the level of the deck and had to be drilled out. Now SS screws, which we withdrew a few years ago and replaced. They were holding up well, however. But not a good idea to start with.
Over the years I've seen a number of "inaccessibles" and "not put together rights" and "not water-sealeds" on Hatteras yachts, as well as the famous blistering. I think Hatteras yachts are build much better than average, but no company is immune to screwups, and no one is immune to the phenomenon that as the distance between the designer and the assembly line increases, frequently the number of "get it out the door"s increases as well.
After twelve years there are still parts of Blue Note I can't get to underneath the cabin sole. God only knows what's down there- I sure don't. And hope I don't have to find out anytime soon.
Karl at least you found this out now rather than by having the whole assembly rip out of the deck at the worst moment. Incidentally, when you're done repowering your boat and everything's to your liking, I'm buying it from you.:lol

[Genesis]

Yeah, I hear 'ya on the 'worst possible time.'

I shudder at the thought of what could have happened. If we had taken Hurricane Ivan on the hook, and any load had been taken up on that roller, its very likely that we would have ripped the entire front of the deck off. Seeing as one of the ideas I had for that storm was to do a bahamian moor (I've got the big storm anchors for it), I suspect we would have gotten really badly hosed.

Likewise, we've had to drop a hook when a storm has overtaken us before, and wait it out below. Hasn't happened often, but it would have only taken one really good 'whack' to rip the deck apart... That would have been one hell of a mess.

Anyway, it'll be tank-like when I'm done. I'm actually fairly seriously considering doing the full laminate deal rather than replacing the core. It would take some time, since you can really only lay two layers of glass at a time without running into the risk of a cooked cure, but on the other hand it would be damn unique and water would never get in there again.

I'm also considering repainting the foredeck when this is all done just for cosmetics. I dunno.... that's not all that big of a project, really, if I don't do the two-part stuff.

I dunno.... I'll get the top layer of the laminate off, dig it out, and then make my decision from there. I'm leaning towards using plywood for the replacement core simply because infused with resin its concrete-like in strength, I've done it before, and I've got some examples that have been left out in the weather for 5+ years that look like they were put together yesterday morning.

[Bob Bradley]

I think I understand most of it now. As I see it, you are not removing any material were the roller base is mounted (at least I hope not). So, you are removing only the area immediately around the hawse holes.

I’m still not certain whether you are removing material directly under the windlass, but I suspect that you are, and that is the cause of my concern.

My concern is that you are creating a seamed “plug” of surface fiberglass decking that is only tabbed into place by the new glass you are adding at the “V”. If the seam where you reattach the deck piece after you repair the core indeed proves to be a weak point, then it would appear to me that the main structure for mounting point of the windlass would be the substantially thinner underdeck fiberglass along with the backing plates.

I guess I envision a weakened area at the outline of the deck piece you are removing in order to repair the core. That deck top will be about 5/16” thick, and that provides much of the strength. The underdeck glass layer is substantially thinner – 1/8” or less – basically one layer of heavy cloth. I’d hate to see the outline of the repair crack under stress.

Unfortunately, you may also find that the decay has traveled further than you think, as I sadly discovered while rebedding my rodholders last spring. If you want, I can send you photos of the gunwale replacement job I did as a result of that problem. They might give you an idea of the kind of mess that may be in there.

In any event, if you have the time, take some photos of the project, as they will be a great education to the rest of us.
Bob

[Genesis]

... is coming out all the way forward to very close to where the caprail is molded in (basically to the end of the core), in the outline of the pulpit's "print" on the deck. The core at the windless switches (to each side of the pulpit) is visible from below and is sound and dry, so I know that the damage does not extend beyond that point. That core area is going to get soaked with CPES and epoxy during this process, however, so it won't become troublesome in the future.

So yes, it will indeed be where you're talking about.

However, let's think this through.

Right now, there is ZERO core rigidity in that part of the foredeck. Zero. HAND pressure on the deck under where the pulpit was is sufficient to deflect the deck 1/4" or more from the top of the laminate. I don't dare STAND on it, as I suspect I'd end up in the chain locker.

That's how weak it is now.

This was NOT obvious until the pulpit came all the way off! Indeed, I thought this was confined to the area immediately surrounding the windless bore. Its not.

Most of the strength of the deck is from the truss-like arrangement of the core and two skins, and depends on the bond between each layer of skin and the core for strength. The skin itself is not flexurally strong; indeed it has a great deal of flex. While it is true that the skin provides strength, that strength is in tension - where fiberglass has GREAT strength. I am not going to butt-joint the piece when it is replaced; I am going to make a "V" joint and lay a couple of layers of cloth over and into it, epoxying the joint in place and effectively making a scarf joint with roughly a 5-10:1 aspect ratio. That joint should exceed the strength of the original piece of deck by a substantial margin as it appears that the deck skin itself is one layer of mat and one of roving, and is certainly not more than 1/4" or so in total thickness. In addition the joint can 'stand proud' somewhat since it will be under the pulpit when complete and as such does not need to be fair with the original deck surface. There's no way that's coming apart once its completed.

Further, the entire core area extending well beyond where the deck skin will be penetrated will be saturated with epoxy and allowed to harden. This sort of treatment produces a rock-hard substrate with structural rigidity all on its own, especailly if you use plywood for the replacement core and fill all gaps with structurally-thickened epoxy. The ultimate strength of this section of deck even without the top layer of skin back on it will likely exceed that of the original construction. With it, the strength will be radically higher than as originally built, as the load will be distributed over the entire deck out for a foot or more from the original mounting point.

Restoring the original design strength is a matter of restoring intimate adhesive contact between the core and BOTH skins. This restores the truss design and thus the deck's strength. The issue with deck core deterioration is as much the disbonding of the core from the skin as the rot - that's what destroys the strength.

Consider the deck as something like this...

===============
core core core core
-------------------

And its rotted end-to-end.

OK, what we're going to do is this:

=== ===

------------------

All dug out.

Then...

=== ===
plywood | plywood
------------------

Where the pieces that are fit BETWEEN the pieces of deck skin are coated with epoxy thickened with microballoons, so as to form a structural adhesive, and the plywood itself is first resin-infused. The gap between the pieces (necessary so we can insert it in the recess) is likewise filled with structural epoxy, and the plywood bonded to the sound core on both sides with filled structural epoxy as well.

Now, what we've done is re-created the original truss, and likely stronger than the original deck even without the cap piece, because the plywood, infused with the epoxy and all bonded up, is actually a structural material itself (the balsa that came out was not!) We now put it back together as thus:

___ ___
===|=======|===
-------------- <<< Cloth tabbed under edge
plywood | plywood
-------------------

That ain't NEVER coming apart. I'll bet any other part of the deck fails first. In order for that part of the deck to fail the new core would have to disbond all the way around from the top and bottom skins extending under the cut piece AND the tabbing on both sides has to fail; otherwise there's no way for it to move. That ain't gonna happen, especially using epoxy which is radically stronger than the original polyester resin used to build the thing.

The other option is to build the laminate from the inside skin to deck level out of alternating roving and mat layers of fiberglass, much as if I was laminating a hullside or bottom. If I go this route I'll end up with a deck section that will be nearly 1" thick (!) and which is effectively tabbed into the existing deck structure on all sides around, since the roving and mat sections would be inset into the deck skin on all sides by a substantial amount, and bonded to the core and skin all the way through. That would produce tank-like structural strength, but it is also radically beyond what was originally built and in fact is getting fairly close to the kind of layup schedule one would find in a hull bottom!

That would look like this:

=== ===
Gap where core removed
-----------------------

=== ===
++++++++++++++++++ << Roving/mat layers built up
-----------------------

And then we top it with the original deck

===|=========|====
+++++++++++++++++
----------------------

The latter would be crazy-strong and likely wouldn't even require the top cap to be put back on, since we've now gone from a cored structure to one of solid laminate. In other words, the top cap is now replaced more for cosmetics than anything else.

I don't think I need to go that far, but may choose to simply because it will eliminate any chance of water intrusion into the deck core from the windless and pulpit hardware ever again, as that entire sectiion of the deck would then be solid fiberglass. Indeed, if you look at how backing plates for cleats and such are laminated into the rails, this is exactly the strategy that is undertaken and WHY. You'll rip the entire rail off the boat before you'll lose a cleat.

I can cut the bottom out and do the repair from underneath (there's room in the chain locker), but that has its own problems. One of them is getting intimate core contact with both skins, without which strength is radically reduced. Voids cause structural problems and can result in failures over time. If I go with a full laminate lay-up replacement then the option to do this all in place and shore it up while it cures does not exist because laying more than two or three layers of glass at once results in overheating of the resin during the cure and great reduction in strength. As such if I'm going to do a complete fiberglass restoration, rather than replace the core, it has to be done from the top because that is the only way to insure that the laminate components remain in contact while the epoxy cures.

Gravity works against you when working from the bottom. From the top, gravity works for you.

Anyway, whadda 'ya think with the additional info and cheezy drawings? :)

[Pirate1960]

You have got to be pissed by now. ALmost nothing will surprise me about Hatteras anymore. I want to remind you of the foam coring in the entire transom of my 1977 58' MY. Hatteras CLEARLY represented a solid hull, however the installation of underwater lights in the transom proved otherwise. Getting anyone at Hatteras to admit this was fun, so I settled for their explanation of well "we did do several boats experimenting with this material".

Thanks again Hatteras

FYI, I still might by another one to replace the 58' now that we have settled with BOATUS.

THE PIRATE

[jim rosenthal]

Excellent cheesy drawings...if I were doing this I would use the plywood- you get your thickness built up a lot faster with no sacrifice in strength or stiffness, and plywood has a little more give to it than built-up layers of resin/cloth etc. Have you thought about using silica fibers instead of microballoons- I think it makes a stronger structural adhesive...
I had to do something like this in the aft bulkhead of my boat where it had rotted where the rail stanchion bases were screwed in (thereby also screwing the owner since the holes weren't sealed, does this sound familiar). We used marine plywood sealed in epoxy, after getting all the rotten part out and drying everything for days on end. Then a surface skin of cloth and epoxy, faired with microballoons. But that was an area that was going to be painted, so the surface was visible.
Years later that area was sanded down when the boat was Awlgripped- still looked fine. Other areas were bad, and we used Coosa panel to fill those in, but they are not load-bearing and no one is installing a windlass on them.
Marine plywood- the real good stuff- is very tough and very strong. Hell, Rybovich builds entire boats out of it.

[Genesis]

... silica is a good choice too.

I will likely do the plywood, but I'm still toying with the idea of building the laminate from scratch, as doing it that way will eliminate any chance of water intrusion in the future.

Either way there ain't no way this thing is going to fail a second time....

BTW, more surprises with the pulpit itself. The shoring was screwed down, then a "cap" was built over the top and around it with what appears to be polyester putty. No, I'm not kidding. I thought it was starboard, but of course that didn't exist when this thing was built. Its fairly well-bonded to the underside of the pulpit, although the bond is not 100%. It is VERY hard; the stuff laughed at multiple hammer blows and even a cold chisel did little!

I'm debating attempting to grind it out or just lay in the replacement shoring on top of it, then fair in the entire bottom of the pulpit surface with paste-consistency epoxy (filled, of course) and call it "ready".

Both alternatives have plusses and minuses. That putty has to be VERY heavy, all things considered, but grinding enough of it out to get the rest out without damaging the laminate of the pulpit might be quite the trick.

This means of "attachment" however, is part and parcel of why the plywood failed. Once it got wet, there was no way for it to dry out!

Also, the underside pieces of the pulpit appear to be removeable, but the screws allowing removal are hosed and just twist. So if I want to pull that to get to the underside to remove all the screws that were driven into the teak, I will have to drill out those screws and then re-do the wood used for backing. Surprisingly, that wood, although exposed, not resin-infused and 20 years old, is sound. It is fiberglassed in, but the ends are exposed! How that hasn't rotted and failed is beyond me, but it hasn't.

BTW, the pulpit is almost certainly original Hatteras factory. Up inside the channels one can see the original fiberglass, which happens to be the same thick roving that is used in the hull, and it is painted with the original Hatteras gray bilge paint that is found throughout my boat on all the internal fiberglass surfaces. That makes it a near certainty that the pulpit was built and installed at the factory - what would be the odds of that dull gray epoxy paint being used if a dealer sourced the pulpit from some random place and installed it, since nobody would ever see this location?

Zero.

[Maynard Rupp]

Wow, you guys sure had me scared. We have an "86 36C and decided to change from a Galley Maid "AA" to an "AACW" winch so we could use chain. Got all the stuff used from a guy at GM and started the switch. Almost couldn't get the old gearbox out. Lots of swearing. Got it out and saw no rot in the hole. They had smeared some filler in the hole which also stuck to the nose of the GM gearbox housing. Our boat has never seen salt water, but that doesn't help with core rot at all. We installed the new gearbox, electrical box, and down buton on deck. I was always watching for signs of rot because of the problems all of you are having. We do keep the boat indoors in winter. Today we hole sawed the 5" long hole for the chain pipe. We went through the teak, then SOLID fiberglass until through the deck. Under the deck was about 1" of DRY core. We also drilled 3/8" holes just aft of the stainless anchor slide for the chain stopper. This went through solid fiberglass plus a section of about 1/2" aluminum. This plate was laminated inside the pulpit, not underneath. There was another plate underneath the holes. The point is that our pulpit was entirely laminated fiberglass except for the piece of aluminum. We have no rot or delamination anywhere. Why is our pulpit solid glass and other peoples cored with all that junk?? I have the 5" core sample and it is all solid except the balsa below the deck. By the way, the winch works fine but was a real ball buster to instal. Now I have a rope version to sell.

[first230sl]

... at the deck under my windlass/pulpit. I crawled into my chain locker and looked up to find that at some point in the boat's life the bottom (underside) layer of fiberglass and the balsa core had been removed from an area about 14" square starting at the rail and going backward (the area under the windlass). Thus looking from underneith, I could see the underside of the top layer of deck fiberglass. Around the edges of the cutout there was the edge of the balsa coring. Immediately under the windlass, inside the area of the cutout, was some plywood backing for the windlass - coated and in good shape.

So it appears that someone chewed out the deck from underneith, left the top layer of deck fiberglass intact, left the balsa edges exposed, and put a ply backing plate under the windlass - which is about 1/2 the area of the cutout.

I worry that even with the ply backing plate, I am now relying only on the top layer of deck fiberglass for pulpit/windlass integrity. And with the balsa edges exposed underneith - it is asking for water absorbtion (though I suppose there is lots of opportunity for it to dry as well).

I poked my finger into the balsa edges - seems OK, but I've never seen rotten balsa - so not sure I would recognize it (sorry - newbie here).

I imagine to fix it I would: (this is more of a question than a statement)
1) dig out underneith if/as necessary to find good balsa
2) remove the existing ply backing from under windlass and replace it with one cut to the shape of the entire cutout - using 5200 (?) to secure it from underneith
3) fill the gaps between the new ply and old balsa with ???
4) lay a new layer of fiberglass from underneith to cover it all up and create a continuous skin underneith.

Or - I could have someone who knows what they are doing do it - hopefully correctly.

Thoughts?

Murray

[Genesis]

.... someone 'fixed' this on your boat - half-assed.

The right way to fix it is to remove he half-size piece, cut a FULL size piece, soak same in epoxy so it cannot absorb water and deterioriate, make up some epoxy with high-density (structural) filler, sand the underside of the skin to rough it up (for good adhesion), slather the epoxy in there, fit the core piece (making sure that the entire thing is a good fit with filled epoxy filling all gaps), keep that all in place with shoring (use wax paper until it cures so the shoring doesn't stick to the repair!), then lay at least two layers of glass cloth over the repaired airea. Rough up the edges of the underside cloth and when you lay the new bottom layers overlap it by several inchies.

Doing this from the bottom is a serious PITA - wear tyvek coveralls and goggles, along with protection for your head/hair, because things will drip and "rain" on you and epoxy in the hair is impossible to get out!

I would give serious consideration to removing the windless and bolts so as to make it easier to work down there, then re-drill the necessary holes once you've fixed the core and shell pieces.

[Bob Bradley]

Man, Karl, you type almost as much as you work on your boat. I followed your "cheesy" diagrams just fine - you're a real Cheese Whiz (sorry, couldn't resist).

Seeing what you are doing more clearly now, I agree that it will, indeed, be a good solid fix. My only caution is to repeat Jim's suggestion regarding the use of microballoons. Microballoons are intended primarily for non structural use - fairing and filling. I believe that their intent is to 'soften' epoxy by creating small hollows (hence the "balloon" moniker), making it easier to sand and work with once it sets up.

West Systems has another product, whose name escapes me presently, for this purpose. It is in effect, shaved fiberglass "dust". It forms a stronger and more solid final product than the microballoons. When using it, I make up a very thick paste, with a consistency similar to vasoline, using the dust, and expoxy resin alone. It takes a while to stir in the thickening dust (don't try it in the wind), sorta like trying to moisten flour into dough. That's why I don't follow the directions and add the hardener to the resin before stirring in the thickener.

I measure the amount of epoxy resin carefully, counting the number of pumps on the dispenser. This gives you the time to work it properly into the correct consistency. Make it a little thicker than you want it to be, as you will be adding the hardener next, and this will thin it a bit. If it appears too thin, it is a simple matter to add a little more thickener quickly at this point. Once you are ready to apply the stuff, stir in the same number of pumps of hardener. It's pretty easy to work with. Just keep a can of acetone handy for cleanup of any drips or mistakes.
Bob

[Genesis]

... I think the stuff I was thinking of was the silica filler. I've got the cans out in the garage, and get 'em confused when they're not staring me in the face.... :D

[first230sl]

Yes - I think I will have to remove the windlass in order to get the half-sized backing ply off. Might be a good time to rebuild the windlass if it is going to be off anyway.

OK - I'll add it to my long list of things to do!

Best regards - Murray

[Genesis]

.... today.

I decided to go into this from the bottom. I don't know why, but I was sitting on the boat, its threatening to rain this weekend, and of course with the top open you can't do anything until you're going to have a week or more of dry weather sequentially.

So out comes the cordless circular saw, a dive hood (to protect my hair), an organic vapor respirator (not feeling like breathing any of that crap) and a pair of goggles (nor do I want it in my eyes), along with a dremel with a cutoff wheel.

On my back I go, up inside the chain locker, and cut the bottom around, then ripped it out.

And out it came. The entire core under that area was a gooey mess. I decided to bug-bomb it (to cover the chance that I've got a bug infestation in there as was in the pulpit wood), let it dry overnight, and come back to it in the AM to start chiseling out all the rotten core.

I should be able to get back far enough with a small chisel to get to good core, if I planned the cut location right. If not, then I'll have even more work to do, and more underskin to rip off.

The underlayer was one layer of roving and not even completely resin-saturated. It came off the rotted core easily, of course, once I got it started with a screwdriver.

So FWIW its drying out now. My CPES will be here tomorrow, I picked up some glass cloth and mat this afternoon, and will be ready to attack rebuilding this thing as soon as I can get it dug out and dried.

I'm going to start working on finishing the stripping of the pulpit, sanding and re-fairing, then repainting it here in a couple of days as well.

With any luck in another week or so I may have it fixed and back together, if the weather cooperates.

[Bob Bradley]

That sounds like a nice way to avoid having to refinish the deck as well. And, there is a surprising amount of room to work in there once the windlass is out. I've been laying old lifejackets across the opening to save my back a bit while I'm in there.

So, will you goop up the top of the plywood with epoxy/silica and press it up into place with a jack of some sort? I really like the idea of not disturbing the finished deck top.

If you have a chance, take a couple digital shots of the job as you progress. And, please let me know of any problems you encounter, as I'm about a week behind you on the same job.
Bob

[Genesis]

My intent is to first clean it all out, of course.

I've pretty much decided to go get a couple of sheets of thin plywood - 1/4" at most. The idea here is to insure that the resin will soak all the way through it. The problem with using 3/4" is that epoxy won't soak all the way through it, and I want to make damn sure that this repair can't fail from water intrusion in the future. The only two ways are to laminate up the entire deck (which I considered, but from the bottom that's a NASTY job, so its now off teh table) or to use thin pieces of ply and build up my own laminate, with each of them being set in place with epoxy so it can soak through the entire thickness of the board.

I'll then cut the layers that are going to go in and dry fit the assembly. The first layer will have thickened epoxy slathered on it, and put in place. Then each layer under it, while still wet, will be slathered with epoxy and pressed up against the former, until the entire "sandwich" is constructed, with paste-consistency thickened epoxy puttied in around the edges to insure there are no gaps. This should be able to be done in a couple of hours once all the prep work is done. I'll likely bring an old scuba reg over with a tank and breathe off it while working to avoid gassing myself in the chain locker from the fumes.

Then the bottom will go back on (another layer of thickened epoxy) and the entire thing will be held up with a couple of pieces of 2x4, with a piece of plywood underneath so that it is held straight, with wax paper on top so that it doesn't stick from the drippings (of which there will be many.)

(BTW, a piece of 3/4" plywood sits nicely on the chain locker separator in the locker, giving me a nice flat and clean place to lay while I'm working.)

Once that's set then I will rough up the piece of underside I cut out and lay cloth over the joint, building that up so that at least one more full layer of cloth is laid over the bottom. This is intended to provide additional strength to the underside of the deck in this high-load area and insure that the bottom doesn't fail under load. That'll require me to don the protective gear again so the sanding does doesn't give me either silicosis or permanent itchies.

Then I get to try to drill back through all that in order to remount all the hardware... I expect it will be a ROYAL bitch, but that's the idea.

The deck under the pulpit will need to be sanded and filled with fairing filler blended with epoxy, as parts of the paint and skin-out mat came off when I removed the pulpit. There's no way I will be able to 100% match it, so there will be a roughly 3" wide area around the outside of the pulpit outline that I will likely repaint - the line will be clearly visible, but I've no good alternative to this.

Then the pulit, already prepared, will be dry-fit, new shoring fit and resin-infused in the same way I'm doing the core (built up layer-by-layer, all soaked in epoxy) and then bolted back on and the windless and roller re-installed.

That should do it.

Will try to get some pics starting tomorrow; I'm going to go over there in a bit and air out the compartment I gassed, along with turning on the AC and a big fan to start drying it all out.

[Gary]

Genesis: greetings from the Pacific Northwest. I've been reading this post, thankfull that I do not have an "upside down" project going. Sounds like you are going the extra mile and I can't think of a more important structural application than windlass support. One comment, though...
You aren't really going to saturate 1/4 ply- all penetration will stop at the glue line. The only way for full wood saturation is something like the West system, using individual veneers. I would go with 3/4 marine ply (or 5/8-1/2 depending on your "space"). Meaning real marine ply- full veneers all layers, no plugs and at 3/4 there better be at least 7 plys. Resorsonal glue, of course. My guess is that in these parts, at least, I would probably have to go to a place specializing in wood boat building stuff to find marine ply. I bet they would sell a partial sheet and as a bonus, really know what they are talking about. Just seal the edges good with epoxy resin and overlay w/frp as you see fit. Should result in less "upside down" time.
Good luck!
Gary

[Genesis]

I'm having fun trying to find marine plywood here..

If I can't, my defense is going to be to basically build up my own plywood using thin veneers, and resin-infuse all the layers, using exterior-grade materials. That may be the best I can accomplish if I can't find a source for "true" marine plywood.

The problem with 3/4" marine ply is that you can't get the resin through it, as you noted. This means that wherever there's a penetration it remains possible for water to get in there and you know what starts once that happens - same thing that already happened.

I can oversize-drill the bolts for the attachment of the roller, then fill with high-density filled epoxy, then re-drill with the correct size, but that's totally impractical for the windless shaft itself. There's not a hole-saw made that will do a 4" thick core in solid filled epoxy.

I've got a few days to mull over exactly how I'm going to build the core back up, but one key is that there must be no way for water to get back in there and rot it again, even if the bedding fails. If that means that I have to spend more time upside down, then so be it.

[double eagle]

I must be missing something on this thread..
you guys are trying to make the pulpit superman strong
like the windless is needing all this strength...
correct me ...you should never use the windless to hold the anchor and chain[ or rode ] should be tied off to the cleats or a chain snubber [ rope and chain hook and tied off to the cleat on either side..]
the windless is not made to take the pressure of the chain working on it over night or at anchorage..
my old 1972 has the old style aluminum bow pulpit
IMHO
BILL
DOUBLE EAGLE

[Gary]

The point in this thread about not wanting the windlass to take the anchor rode load is all well and good but we must remember it is to protect the gear train. Boat trailer winch manuals will tell you the same thing. But your crazy if you don't have that brake set good just in case.

My dad was a career Coast Guard guy. One of my early memories is his explaining that they would never tow a yacht by its cleats- they would tear them out. Always ran a line clear around the boat. This appears to hold water today (dad retired in 1957). I read a recent article where a sailboater transiting from Seattle to San Diego had to be towed by the coasties into Tillamock, Or. A net had fouled their shaft and rudder. They made the guy run the line around the mast! This is dumb when you consider how masts are stepped- certainly not designed for this. Would make more sense to use the jib sheet winches and fairlead at bow.

Bottom line: make that windlass mounting the strongest thing on the boat (well, equal to the chain stopper).

Gary

[mike]

My 1972 53' MY was towed by the coasties into Tillamock, Or in sept 2002. They did not use a line around the boat (bad fuel, dumb captain & dumber owner). Instead the line was rigged to cleats (by hired captain) on the Aluminum Ideal pulpit. It with-stood the force, but towing it in 8' seas did manage to pull the entire system forward about 1/4". I now have a SS plate under the deck cleats in back of the windless that has been glassed and bolted to the deck with braces running back along the gunnel down to the stringers in-order to spread the pulling force. I have also made a 50' nylon bridle to act as a shock absorber in case I need it in the future. mike

[Bob Bradley]

Karl,
I wouldn't make myself nuts trying to soak cpes or west completely throughout the plywood. As long as the surface and any exposed edges receive 2 or 3 shots of cpes, that stuff will not rot. I replaced the aft gunwale (fantail?) on my '65 Chris Seaskiff in '87 with 1/2" marine ply. Back then, I was still learning, and I didn't do anything whatsoever to the plywood. 10 years later, over the winter of '97/'98, I replaced the remaining gunwales all around the boat, and re-did the fantail since I was also replacing the transom.

Well, that 10 year old untreated plywood was plenty wet, and had been for quite a while, but there was no evidence of decay or delamination whatsoever. True marineply is good stuff. Not only are there no voids, but the glue is waterproof. I believe you can boil it for something like 3 hours before it fails. You can get it shipped to you from Condon Lumber in White Plains, NY if you can't find it locally. Their phone is 914-946-4111. They have any wood you heart could desire.

Presuming that the core is 3/4" thick, like the gunwales, I plan on using either 1 layer of 3/4 or 3 layers of 1/4 marine ply, precoated with 2 or 3 coats of cpes, and loaded on top with epoxy silica. Once I re-bore the hawse holes thru it, and redrill the bolt holes for the windlass and roller mount, I'll treat the exposed holes with cpes.

All that, combined with PROPERLY BEDDED HARDWARE (are you listening, Hatteras???) should make for a proper, permanent repair.

By the way, after listening to your well thougth out approach, I will be doing this from underneath as well. Last year, I had hoped to do my gunwales from underneath, but there just wasn't enough room to cut out the bottom layer of fiberglass.
Thanks for all the details.
Bob

[garyd]

I would skip plywood and use aluminum. The newer upscale models are using aluminum. We have a waterjet if you can do a drawing we can cut it. You would have to prepare the underside of pulpit. I would use a router to give a level flat serface for the Al. to rest in, route out 3/4 inch use 1/2 aluminum. Since your doing all this work, might as well go the final mile. Therfore it will never again rot out.

garyd.

[jim rosenthal]

Karl, I don't know where you are (West Coast FL?) but depending on how much marine plywood you need, you may be able to get it shipped in from Harbor Sales Co, who I think is in Baltimore, or Exotic Woods here in Annapolis. OR, you could call the Stuart area builders who use a lot of it (Rybo, Lydia, those guys) and ask if there's a supplier in your neck of the woods. If I can give you any help up here, let me know. I assume you mean the real stuff built up of hardwood veneers with waterproof adhesives...the kind they build cold-molded boats out of.

[Trojan]

All plywood company's uses the same water proof glue in all the plywood. Marine plywood just has no core voids and many more layers of wood. I'm not sure why you could not just glass in a standard piece of treated plywood. No rot. If you find a void you don't like just fill it with epoxy. Bolt load is 80/90 % HORIZONTAL shear. I would bore and sleeve the holes for a larger pull surface area. So the bolts can't elongate the holes. A 1/2 inch bolt I would use a 1 inch sleeve. Then bolt through with stainless bolts, large diameter backup washers or plates and lock nuts. How many boaters have had there windless ripped off the deck? Cleats yes. Sounds like a lot of over engineering and work. If it didn't rip off with all the dry rot in there. Do you really need the battleship fix. Just my thought.I like the k.i.s.s. system.Bill

[Genesis]

... it doesn't take any more work to fix it so it'll never fail again than it does to fix it like it was originally :D

Good part of the rot out. Need to trim back a bit more of the bottom skin (dremel time; saw won't fit in there anymore) and do some more digging, then its sander time (upside down - blech!) to get the surface flat for the replacement.

Gonna use a scuba tank and reg + mask while laminating and such so I don't gas myself..... I knew there was another good use for all that diving crap :)

[Traveler 45C]

It's a good thing the weather isn't that hot yet...

With all of that gear on you would be even more miserable.

[Genesis]

... the heavy cover isn't bad right now; I crank up the AC and make the boat nice and cool, and have a big industrial fan for ventilation, but the chain locker is a very tight, confined space.

Laying a piece of plywood across the divider/stem reinforcement gives me a good surface to sit/lay on, but its still damn tight in there. If it was summer I'd be roasting - as it is the temps aren't bad working in there.

Hope to have this all done within another couple of weeks; the underdeck repair is getting priority because the pulpit itself can be worked on in free air at the house; no drama or "overheat risk" there.

[Bob Bradley]

Mine doesn't have the chain/rope separator. It's just an open hole. I've been stuffing it with lifejackets to fill the void and also provide some cushioning. I'll put plastic and a cotton dropcloth over it when I'm glassing.

[Genesis]

... worry about YOU!

When you're glassing its gonna be messy..... I'm NOT looking forward to that part of this job.

[Bob Bradley]

That pulpit is one heavy mutha!

I was very pleased and surprised to see that mine isn't in terrible condition. The plywood underside body of the pulpit appears to be original, as it is a very professional looking fabrication, and "43C 110" is written on its underside in red magic marker. I'm not sure what the 110 refers to, but the boat is a 43C model. I can't see anyone just doing a repair job having any reason to write that there.

The two aft mounting bolts for the pulpit were badly corroded. I tried to "unscrew" them up out of the holes with a wrench and a pipe for leverage, but only managed to snap off the heads. Fortunately, we managed to drive them down thru the holes, and into the locker by applying a BFH and a fairly creative drift (the fluke post of a small danforth anchor).

Once the pulpit was off, we noted some decay evident around its port side hawse hole - about 5 to 6 inches in diameter, and virtually none around its stbd hole. The six bolt holes for the windlass, the four for the roller mount, and the two for the pulpit itself are all in good shape, with only minimal evidence of decay. A few good soakings with CPES should more than suffice for the bolt holes and stbd hawse hole. Of course, I'll also hit the entire underside face of the plywood with CPES as well.

I expect to cut out an area about 6" in diameter around the port hawse hole, and just repair that immediate area on the pulpit. My alternatives are to replace it with either a white oak or plywood Dutchman, or simply slide a waxpaper-wrapped piece of pvc pipe into the hole from underneath, and fill the entire area around it with thickened epoxy. I have a few pails of very fine mahogany and teak sawdust that I've added to expoxy, and used for applications like this in the past. It is quite strong, yet easily formable and sandable.

As far as the deck itself is concerned, I haven't examined it closely yet, as the batteries in my maglight chose yesterday afternoon to give up the ghost. I do not see any major flexing in the deck under and around the pulpit, and the bolt holes look OK. I intend to poke around them a bit with an awl to confirm the integrity of the core in that area. Hopefully, I will get away with a good CPES seal job here as well.

Observing the hawseholes from above, they certainly look a lot better than the gunwales around my rod holders did last spring. The rod holders had nothing but black goo around them, as far in as I could reach with a finger or screwdriver. There is at least material around the hawse holes. This gives me a couple repair options.

One option here is to set the blade on the saw so that only about 3/16” is exposed, and score the underside fiberglass from within the locker. I’ll cut out a couple of patches of fiberglass to let me inspect the shape that the core is in. Based on what I observe, I’ll either just soak it with CPES, replace small areas with Dutchmen, or cut out and replace the entire area like you are doing.

Another option is to cut out an inspection area from above, as the pulpit will hide any repairs to this area. I can then ream out any decayed core, and use a pipe wrapped in wax paper to hold the form of the hawse hole, and simply fill around it, like on the pulpit.

All in all, it could have been a lot worse.

When I first removed the windlass and took off the motor, I could only turn the shaft by using both hands. The gear oil looked like cold rusty molasses. No wonder the thing was so slow to retrieve the anchor. It’s a credit to Ideal that it even worked at all.

Over the weekend, I filled it with gasoline, and let it soak, turning the shaft occasionally. After soaking overnight, I stirred the gas with a paint stick, dumped it into a bucket, and refilled it. By last evening, the shaft was completely freed up. If I give it a spin by hand, it actually keeps on spinning from momentum now. There doesn’t appear to be any play in the unit either, so I don’t plan on disassembling it any further. As long as it’s off, I’m having a local shop go through the DC motor, and service it, replacing brushes and cleaning it up as necessary.

I’m also having a steel plate made to sister the existing rusted out mounting plate. I’ll have the whole thing sandblasted, and weld the new plate to the original plate. I’ll compensate for its thickness by reducing the thickness of the wooden spacer. With any luck, I’ll have the whole thing back together in a couple weeks.
Bob

[Maynard Rupp]

We bought a used Galley Maid winch assy. less motor to replace our "rope only" unit. Both of the gear boxes are identical except for the length of the shaft. I have the one we removed available. This unit comes from a fresh water only boat.

[Genesis]

Mine didn't look too bad and I considered doing the "CPES fill" thing. I'm glad I didn't, now that its all apart.

One problem you will run into inspecting from the bottom is that there may be (there were on mine) fairly large sections of core that were sound on the bottom, but were trashed on top. If you tear off a small piece of the bottom fiberglass and see good wood, that's not enough - you have to chisel it out to make sure there's no deterioration in the middle - its 3/4" thick.

Check it carefully - if you get away with filling it then you done did good and got lucky. It would suck to do this though and THEN have to take it apart later, because once you run that resin in there its going to be a BEAST to take apart at a later date.

[Bob Bradley]

Karl,
You make a good point. That may help me make the decision on cutting from below or above. Lord knows I don't relish the upside down fiberglassing job. One of the alternatives I'm considering is to cut an inspection hole thru the top deck glass, about 6" x 6" around the hawse hole. And, minor decay there is really not a structural issue. It's the bolt hole areas that concern me most. Fortunately, the structual bolting is spread out well over a fairly large area.

I will be drilling, poking, and prodding around all 12 main bolt holes (6 windlass, 4 roller mount, and 2 pulpit) very carefully before I finalize my repair strategy. If it's punky, it will get torn open. If it's solid, I'll just repair the hawse hole area.

I will say this: The Friday after Thanksgiving, while fishing single handed, I got my anchor (all chain rode) hung up on an old trawl net that had apparently fouled on the wreck I fish. Standing on the bow, working the windlass, I was able to actually pull the bow down toward the water, and I never noted any deflection of the deck.

Also, yesterday after removing the pulpit, my 300# buddy Bob (aka Large Polish Boy) who was helping me, did his best jig on the offending area of the deck, with no noticable movement of the area.

I'm going to check it carefully, but I'm not above accepting an occasional run of good luck.
Bob

[Genesis]

... I will note though that my windless and pulpit didn't flex the deck when loaded, even with it being trashed as bad as it was.

I think that's mostly because the caprail takes so much of the load, given the "cantilever" way the pulit sits on it, and that rail is SOLID - no coring.

However, with the windlass off it was obvious that I had trouble. Believe it or not, the hawse-hole was not the really ugly area - the areas around the mounting bolt holes were on mine....

The seal around the roller holes was fine, but the core inside there, once the 5200 was dug out, was worthless. There was NO sealant aronud the windlass mount holes - that's how the water got in there in the first place.

Good luck - I decided to go in from the bottom mostly because I can work even if its going to rain out that way, although I am not looking forward to the relamination from underneath. Have my Tyvek suit and am going to take a scuba tank and reg in there with me so I don't gas myself when I do the deed though.....

[Bob Bradley]

Unfortunately, we picked up 4" of snow up here in CT today, so I guess I'll take just the kids skiing and forget about it for a week or so.

[Traveler 45C]

Bob,

43C 110 may be your hull number.

[Bob Bradley]

Hull number was my first thought also, but it's not.