Engine coolant:series 53 and 71 Detroits

[REBrueckner]

Don't not generalize any discussion results here to other engine manufacturers//////

My nitrite level in my 71 series antifreeze tests low currently....It's a conventional fomulation which meets heavy duty DD spec TMC-RP 329.

Current Detroit Diesel coolant specs may be seen at (but 53 series and 71 series are no longer listed):
http://www.ddcsn.com/cps/rde/xbcr/ddcsn/DDC-SVC-BRO-0002.pdf

The typical three tests for antifreeze/coolant are PH, freeze point and nitrite level. PH should be about, 8 or 9, which is alkaline (never below 7.5 which would be acid.) Test strips are available ....WICK is the brand I've used....

When replacing/changing 71 series engine coolant/antifreeze, do any of you have strong opinions about one formulation over another? Among DD approved antifreeze types are conventional formulations, extended life, OAT,NOAT,HOAT, and probably a few others I can't recall at the moment.

Is it smart top stick with a conventional formulation if that's what's been used before....is mixing a small amount of old versus new due to insufficient flushing a problem??

I know any formulation should be phosphate and silicate free, to prevent drop out, but I have never seen anything regarding pros and cons among different formulations. The above spec makes it sound like OAT NOAT lasts longer???

Finally, anybody know if nitrite is even necessary in 71 series?..I think it's required for 53 series, not necessarily 71 series, for cavitation corrosion prevention??. But if it is required, and any nitrite additive becomes depleted, can it be purchased at retail and added if the antifreeze otherwise tests ok?
Likely it would be part of a Supplementary Coolant Additive (SCA).

[REBrueckner]

I finally "rediscovered" the DD specs for fuel,oil coolant:

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Support/on-highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/

[REBrueckner]

Here's the source for currently approved DD coolants: NOTE THAT DIFFERENT FORMULATIONS ARE NOT TO BE MIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.detroitdiesel.com/Support/On-Highway/Manuals/Lubricants_Fuels_Coolants/Power_Guard_Oils/index4print_93K217.asp


DDC Power Cool 93K217 Approved Coolants List

DISCLAIMER: Product registration means the manufacturer or marketer has faithfully collected information pertinent to the requirements of the specification and with the full intention to conform to the specification. However, it is still the responsibility of the manufacturer or marketer to ensure satisfactory performance of its products in all aspects at all times. Registration for DDC Power Cool Engine Coolant Specification 93K217 does not waive the liability of the manufacturer or the marketer. DDC does not warrant the performance of non-DDC products, registered or not.

Company Name Product Name Inhibitor Technology
Detroit Diesel Corporation Power Cool Conventional
Detroit Diesel Corporation Power Cool Plus Organic Acid
BP Lubricants Castrol Heavy Duty Coolant Conventional
BP Lubricants Castrol Heavy Duty Extended Life Coolant / Antifreeze OAT
Chevron Products Company Texaco Extended Life Coolant / Antifreeze - Nitrite Free OAT
Chevron Products Company DELO Extended Life Coolant / Antifreeze - Nitrite Free OAT
Coquilub Coquilub 575 Heavy Duty ELC Antifreeze/ Coolant Hybrid (HOAT)
ExxonMobil Mobil Heavy Duty Coolant Conventional
ExxonMobil Mobil Delvac Extended Life Coolant OAT
Old World Industries, Inc. FINAL CHARGE Global Extended Life Coolant OAT
Old World Industries, Inc. Power Cool Conventional
Old World Industries, Inc. Power Cool Plus OAT
Old World Industries, Inc. FLEET CHARGE Fully Formulated Coolant Conventional
Recochem 542 Hybrid (HOAT)
Recochem TURBOPOWER Diesel Extended Life Antifreeze Coolant Hybrid (HOAT)
Recochem STP Diesel Extended Life Antifreeze Coolant Hybrid (HOAT)
Recochem TURBOPOWER Heavy Duty Diesel Antifreeze Coolant Conventional
Recochem OATS-NF Hybrid (HOAT)
Recochem STP Heavy Duty Diesel Antifreeze Coolant Conventional
Shell Global Solutions Shell HD Ultra ELC OAT
Shell Global Solutions Shell HD Premium Antifreeze / Coolant Hybrid (HOAT)
Shell Global Solutions Shell HD Premium N Antifreeze / Coolant Hybrid (HOAT)
Shell Global Solutions Shell HD Antifreeze / Coolant Conventional
Shell Global Solutions Shell Fully Formulated Phosphate Free Antifreeze / Coolant Conventional
Shell Global Solutions Shell ROTELLA Ultra ELC OAT
The Valvoline Company Zerex Extended Life Hybrid (HOAT)
The Valvoline Company Zerex G 30 OAT
The Valvoline Company Zerex G 05 Hybrid (HOAT)

[Brian Degulis]

Can't you just get some approved anti freeze and pour it in?



Brian

[REBrueckner]

Hey Mike,
I friggin refuse to spend $19/gal without knowing which antifreeze formulation offers the best protection, longest life, and ability to rejuvenate via addivives.

In addition, and I may be wrong about this, but I don't think nitrite (which I now test low in my "old" antifreeze), is even necessary for 71 series (dry liner? engines). It IS supposedly important for anticavitation/corrosion in wet liner engines (series 53, I think)....If this is true I am wasting time and money changing for an additive replenishment I don't even need. My PH and freeze protection is fine.....

My concern is that I think the ability exists to add SCA's (supplemenatry coolant additives) to refresh some antifreeze formulations when antifreeze gets old....say, spending $30 instead of $300 and avoiding replacement hassles with all the drain,refill, disposal issues.

Now that I have posted all the brands and formulations here maybe my next step will be to see If I can get some specifics on individual brands.

For those of you who use DD Powercool, for example, what's the life expetancy and can it be refreshed? Or does it have to be replaced???

You know what they do with recycled antifreeze, right????: filter it, add additives and sell it back to us at full price.....

My mechanic uses DD Powercool antifreeze exclusively but I doubt he does anythingbut change out completely when stuff gets "old"....and they are on vacation for two weeks...

[REBrueckner]

via:http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/05-2.pdf

The following makes it appear NOAT and HOAT are about five year intervals versus conventional life of maybe two years. Makes it sound like both HOAT and NOAT have nitrites (anti cavitation) added...that makes sense.

excerpts....
"....
Inorganic Acid Technology (IAT) is the chemical composition for the traditional
antifreezes that are green in color. An IAT can be used with either ethylene glycol (EG) or propylene glycol (PG). The normal IAT service life is two years or 30,000 miles (50,000 km).
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) was the first LLC / ELC introduced in North
America in 1994. OAT antifreeze had been widely used in Europe before its
introduction in North America. OAT can be either EG or PG but is mostly EG
based. Its first dye colors were orange and red. These dye colors are still used by General Motors and Caterpillar. Green, pink and blue have been added to the list
April 2005
Page 2 of 2
of available OAT antifreezes. It is recommended that OAT not be mixed with any other antifreeze technology. The normal OAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) is a combination of IAT and OAT with
nitrites added. This makes HOAT suitable for use in both light duty and heavy
duty systems. Currently, two manufacturers are using HOAT for their vehicles.
Daimler/Chrysler's version is dyed orange and contains 10% recycled antifreeze.
Ford Motor Company’s version is dyed yellow and does not contain any recycled antifreeze. Both of these HOAT antifreezes use the marketing designator of GO- 5. They are compatible with each other but mixing them with IAT or OAT is not recommended. The normal HOAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Nitrated Organic Acid Technology (NOAT) is an OAT with nitrates added. This
makes NOAT also suitable for use in both light duty and heavy duty systems.
NOAT and HOAT are very similar in performance characteristics. Currently, no
OEM vehicle manufacturer is using NOAT. The normal NOAT service life is 5
years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Since antifreeze is clear when it is manufactured, and water is clear, dye is used
to color the antifreeze for identification and marketing purposes. The color of
antifreeze is no longer an accurate indicator as to whether it is an IAT, OAT,
HOAT or NOAT formulation. Further, some antifreeze manufacturers market a
“universal” antifreeze they say is compatible with all OAT, HOAT and NOAT
formulations. These "universal" formulas are not for use with IAT and they will not
convert an IAT to an LLC/ELC antifreeze. Mixing IAT with OAT, HOAT or NOAT
antifreezes will not damage your vehicle’s cooling system; however the mixture will negate the long life/extended life attributes of these formulations.
In conclusion, there are currently two oranges, two reds, green, dark green,
yellow, blue, blue-green, clear and pink dye colors available. With this variety of dye colors and more to come, the service technician’s ability to properly service and maintain light duty and heavy duty cooling systems properly will be greatly challenged. It is imperative the technician be fully aware of what the vehicle
manufacturers' requirements for antifreeze are and those recommendations be
carefully followed. For further information regarding cooling system maintenance,
refer to TSB's 88-1R3, 89-1R2, 97-2 and 02-1.

[REBrueckner]

via:http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/05-2.pdf

The following makes it appear NOAT and HOAT are about five year intervals versus conventional life of maybe two years. Makes it appear both HOAT and NOAT have nitrites (anti cavitation) added...that makes sense.

excerpts....
"....
Inorganic Acid Technology (IAT) is the chemical composition for the traditional
antifreezes that are green in color. An IAT can be used with either ethylene glycol (EG) or propylene glycol (PG). The normal IAT service life is two years or 30,000 miles (50,000 km).
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) was the first LLC / ELC introduced in North
America in 1994. OAT antifreeze had been widely used in Europe before its
introduction in North America. OAT can be either EG or PG but is mostly EG
based.......
It is recommended that OAT not be mixed with any other antifreeze technology. The normal OAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Hybrid Organic Acid Technology (HOAT) is a combination of IAT and OAT with
nitrites added. This makes HOAT suitable for use in both light duty and heavy
duty systems. Currently, two manufacturers are using HOAT for their vehicles.
Daimler/Chrysler's version is dyed orange and contains 10% recycled antifreeze.
Ford Motor Company’s version is dyed yellow and does not contain any recycled antifreeze. Both of these HOAT antifreezes use the marketing designator of GO- 5. They are compatible with each other but mixing them with IAT or OAT is not recommended. The normal HOAT antifreeze service life is 5 years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Nitrated Organic Acid Technology (NOAT) is an OAT with nitrates added. This
makes NOAT also suitable for use in both light duty and heavy duty systems.
NOAT and HOAT are very similar in performance characteristics. Currently, no
OEM vehicle manufacturer is using NOAT. The normal NOAT service life is 5
years or 150,000 miles (250,000 km).
Since antifreeze is clear when it is manufactured, and water is clear, dye is used
to color the antifreeze for identification and marketing purposes. The color of
antifreeze is no longer an accurate indicator as to whether it is an IAT, OAT,
HOAT or NOAT formulation. Further, some antifreeze manufacturers market a
“universal” antifreeze they say is compatible with all OAT, HOAT and NOAT
formulations. These "universal" formulas are not for use with IAT and they will not
convert an IAT to an LLC/ELC antifreeze. Mixing IAT with OAT, HOAT or NOAT
antifreezes will not damage your vehicle’s cooling system; however the mixture will negate the long life/extended life attributes of these formulations.
In conclusion, there are currently two oranges, two reds, green, dark green,
yellow, blue, blue-green, clear and pink dye colors available. With this variety of dye colors and more to come, the service technician’s ability to properly service and maintain light duty and heavy duty cooling systems properly will be greatly challenged. It is imperative the technician be fully aware of what the vehicle
manufacturers' requirements for antifreeze are and those recommendations be
carefully followed. For further information regarding cooling system maintenance,
refer to TSB's 88-1R3, 89-1R2, 97-2 and 02-1.

[REBrueckner]

The following would mke me suspicious about DEX COOL antifreeze. It's an OAT formulation and NOT approved for DD so I am not quoting it here....but if you use it in your car, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifreeze#Organic_acid_technology

[Genesis]

DO NOT mix antifreezes. If you don't know what's in the engine the only safe thing to do is to DRAIN and FLUSH IT THOROUGHLY. As noted above color doesn't tell you JACK any more.

Mixing inhibitor technologies can in some cases lead to dropout of the chemicals, effectively turning the antifreeze into a sludge. This does really bad things when (not if) it accumuates places where you don't want it, and its damn near impossible to clean out once that happens too (without hot-tanking the block!)

[REBrueckner]

Coolant specification Numbers

The spec we DO look for is TMP-RC 329 Type A for series 53,71, and 92 series DD diesels.

This is an American Trucking Association (ATA) Technology Maintenance Council (TMC) specification. Their website is
http://www.truckline.com/Federation/Councils/TMC/Pages/default.aspx

Is anybody a member that can find what's in the spec???

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I picked out the following spec numbers from all the old posts on coolant discussions.....
At the American National Standards Institute website,
http://webstore.ansi.org/FindStandards.aspx?SearchString=D4985&SearchOption=0&PageNum=0&SearchTermsArray=null%7cD4985%7cnull

you can find the subject matter for various specifications....here are a few:

3306 (We do not use this spec)

ASTM D3306-08a
Standard Specification for Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Automobile and Light-Duty Service


D4985

Standard Specification for Low Silicate Ethylene Glycol Base Engine Coolant for Heavy Duty Engines Requiring a Pre-Charge of Supplemental Coolant Additive (SCA)

(This appears to be applicable to those DD antifreeze formulations which require an initial precharge of SCA.)

[Nonchalant1]

I just get DD PowerCool, as recommended, and mix it 50/50 with DISTILLED water. I only change it every other season or annual if we're cruising a lot, like the last 3 years. I also don't pull the engine block plugs when changing, so I get about 7 gal I think per engine. I know there's some old antifreeze left in the block that mixes with the new, but it's a small relative amount.

Doug

[Genesis]

If you drain from the bottom of the oil cooler you'll get nearly all of it.

[REBrueckner]

Good tips. It's been a while since I drained mine, but I have petcocks down under somewhere...I think at the bottom of the coolant circulation pump....

One of the things causing me to ask questions before I proceed is that my antifreeze is crystal clear...no crud, no rust, no residue....so I'm suspicious about just how much time,effort and expense the effort of changing it all is worth....


What's the total coolant volume for an 8V71TI....around 12 or 15 gallons???

[Genesis]

Coolant, if it is not contaminated, does not need to be changed. It does not "wear out" per-se.

However, the inhibitors can be depleted and should be topped up if so. You can get test strips (you MUST get the correct ones for the formulation you're using!) to check the inhibitor levels and then add the proper amount of SCAs as necessary to top them up if low.

There is no particular reason to change coolant if its clean, the inhibitor level is correct and if you need freeze protection you have the proper freeze point.

For mechanical Detroits if you DO NOT need freeze protection you will gain about 13% more cooling capacity over a 50/50 glycol and water mix by running distilled water and SCAs alone - no glycol at all. This is an approved coolant according to Detroit Diesel and IMHO is preferrable in tropical climates where raw water temperatures can near 90F and play hell with cooling system capacity, as many Detroits are notoriously close to the line in terms of the heat rejection they are able to handle in the first place.

This is NOT an acceptable option for most modern engines which run higher temperatures and cooling system pressures.

My 6V92s were either 10 or 12 gallons - been a while; I'd expect the 8Vs to be similar.

The drain on the bottom of the oil cooler is the low point in the system; there are small amounts of coolant that will remain trapped if you drain from there in the coolant elbow off the water pump, in the exhaust manifolds and block, but not much.

[REBrueckner]

Your post above and in other older threads confirms exactly my own understanding.....there is usually no need to go through the hassle of complete draining and replacement....that's essentially why I started this thread....everybody is programmed to buy entirely new antifreeze....I'm sure that's more profitable for the antifreeze companies and also the people doing the changeout.....

Where do any of you buy SCA's (Supplemenatry coolant addivitives). I have checked with three local automotive stores here in NJ (Thule, NAPA PEP Boys) and none has them.....but they can find selected HEAVY DUTY antifreezes...about $19 per gallon!!!!!

[stormchaser]

For mechanical Detroits if you DO NOT need freeze protection you will gain about 13% more cooling capacity over a 50/50 glycol and water mix by running distilled water and SCAs alone - no glycol at all. This is an approved coolant according to Detroit Diesel and IMHO is preferrable in tropical climates where raw water temperatures can near 90F and play hell with cooling system capacity, as many Detroits are notoriously close to the line in terms of the heat rejection they are able to handle in the first place.



Ohhh...as a live aboard and has no worries of freezing, this is very appealing. Not jsut for the cooling capacity...but the environmental savings plus money savings. Any tips on what additives I would need to add and how much?

[SKYCHENEY]

Your post above and in other older threads confirms exactly my own understanding.....there is usually no need to go through the hassle of complete draining and replacement....that's essentially why I started this thread....everybody is programmed to buy entirely new antifreeze....I'm sure that's more profitable for the antifreeze companies and also the people doing the changeout.....

Where do any of you buy SCA's (Supplemenatry coolant addivitives). I have checked with three local automotive stores here in NJ (Thule, NAPA PEP Boys) and none has them.....but they can fight selected HEAVY DUTY antifreezes...about $19 per gallon!!!!!

If you are running DD Powercool, you can get the SCA's from any DD dealer. I bought mine at the local DD truck shop that is right off the highway on the way to where I keep the boat. They'll also have the test strips so that you will know how much to add to get to the proper protection level.

[Genesis]

Storm, when I made the switch I went to Fleetcharge's SCA package and their test strips. Its a heavy-duty SCA package intended for wet-liner engines (which the 6V92s are) and provides cavitation protection along with corrosion inhibitors.

These ARE depleted over time and do need testing every 6 months or so - if its low, you top it up. You DO NOT want too much SCA either - there is both a top and bottom boundary, as if you run too much it can precipitate out and that's bad as well.

There is a significant environmental benefit also if you ever have a leak, as while the SCAs are environmentally harmful glycol is far, far worse.

[REBrueckner]

What does DD Powercool, the while bottles, say about service life and changes...every two years????

[John Dickson]

Do any of you know the low point for coolant draining on a 671TI?
tx
John

[captddis]

The low point is the football plate behind the fuel pump.

[John Dickson]

Thanks

I believe that is where the block heaters are installed. Need to replace those also so this will work out fine. Would like to drain the coolant from another location first to keep the mess to a miniumum, any suggestions?

tx John

[captddis]

Try the bottom of the oil cooler. There should be a drain plug in the mounting plate for the block heater also.