Electric problem with big solenoid in ER

Hi: I tried today to start my motors and the electricity jumps and down and the amps drops a lot. My batteries are brand new with chargers, water in correct level etc and I used last weekend with any signs of problems to come. I start to follow the cables and the three battery bank finish in that solenoid it's almost the same of the solenoids in the starter but much bigger. In my instrumentation panel in the helm I have a switch selector for that solenoid and if I moved from port to starboard he sounds but i touched and was extremely hot!. It's in rust conditions is that could be the problem? and where can I but it? Thanks Mario

That sounds like the red/maroon heavy duty solenoid for combining port and stbd batteries to aid starting.

You can get a replacement from Sam's....an identical unit to the original....or try the biggest COLE HERSEY (or other brand) solenoid you can buy...but you'll have to change a heavy duty cable or two if you change solenoid brands....

Mario if the switch is hot it probably is stuck in the on position and should be disconnected ASAP. The solenoid take power from the switch and closes the connection between the batteries but should release when the switch is released.


before you start ordering parts cut the power to the switch and see if the solenoid opens. Then apply power and see if it closes. You will probably hear it open and close.

I have has a few of the toggle switches go bad before and they will get hot and spark. Get the power cut to it ASAP.

or jsut replace it with a simple ON/OFF heavy duty battery switch.

using the parallel solenoid is an emergency procedure so going down to the ER is no big deal.

this way, if the problem in one of the bank is caused by a bad battery, you can just disconnect that bank and run with the parallel switch on to get home without risking more problems.

Pascal said:

or jsut replace it with a simple ON/OFF heavy duty battery switch.

using the parallel solenoid is an emergency procedure so going down to the ER is no big deal.

this way, if the problem in one of the bank is caused by a bad battery, you can just disconnect that bank and run with the parallel switch on to get home without risking more problems.

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Or you could trace the problem and fix it right.

Having to go to the engine room to turn a battery switch on in the heat of an emergency or while docking is not a option. Running with the system paralleled is not the best option either as it can cause more problems


FWIW I bet the parallel solenoid and the toggle switch ( and maybe the push button is bad too ) together are probably not much more in cost than that big battery switch plus the boat is back to the way it is supposed to function.

Parallel switches are momentary for many reasons. Parallel switches are at the helm for many reasons. 2 separate systems for 2 running engines are there for many reasons. Don't take the cheapskate way out and endanger your family or your vessel.

typical usage of the parallel swtich/solenoid is to start one side if that bank is low. personally, if i try to crank and dont' have enough juice, I want to go down below to take a look at the ER before assuming the bank is low and paralelling to start... just in case there is more to it than a low bank. so if i have to go to the ER, i can as well switch a manual parallel switch there, start and then turn it off once i've done a post start up check.

now, if you loose an engine while maneuvering, a solenoid is a big plus, although unless you are running with a known bad bank chances are your batteries will be fully charged since the engines were jsut running.

yes, having two isolated system is ideal although if i have a bad cell in a battery or if i find one bank being too hot, I would find it safer to disconnect that bank altogether, throw a parallel switch on and come home running both engine off the same bank than having the alternator dumping a lot of amps in a bank that's defective and about to go.

let's be honest here, Hatteras did not always get systems absolutely right. for instance, many of our boats only have two banks instead of having one bank per engine plus a house bank. Worst, on some boats you can't even select which bank will be used for house duties. so while having a solenoid is convenient, i'm not sure i agree that it is the best setup jsut because that's the "way the boat is supposed to function"

Pascal--

You have described the way the early Hatteras Yachts were designed--three battery banks, a selector switch for choosing the house bank as well as varying the banks to get equal use. Must have been those Rockwell bean counters who chaged the design!

You forgot that not everyone has easy access to an engine room and the battery switches.

The idea of running in parallel on the switch if a bank is dead brings up a question. What of the dead bank fries the other? Momentary parallel switches are much better. Hatteras did not get much wrong. Technology may have changed things but for the most part they were right on.

I have a 2 bank system on my boat and it gas a selector for the house bank. My boat if a 1966 so I would think the later boats had similar abilities in the 40 foot or so SF.

MY's are a different breed and had systems designed for how the people used them at the time they were made. Vintage cars were designed the same. To say something is wrong based on the change in usage is not fair.


The 1510 series of vessels was not designed as a live aboard but as a coastal cruiser. Thinking people would normally use them a few day at a time and week to month long trips. Generators were the norm and inverters were rare. Today many of these vessels are refitted with more modern amenities and still are not the same as a vessel designed with the amenities in mind from the beginning.

That parallel switch is there for a reason, and if its HOT, ol' Mario has a problem. Lets see, a battery fire along with two glowing red alternators and a panic situation..., If you are gonna make suggestions, make worthwhile ones will you please?

Watch this video of a tug that lost its ONLY engine for some giggles haha! ws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrKHLQMA_5U&feature=related


FWIW... mine is set up to have a bank for each engine, and the port bank also runs the house. THAT is direct from the factory schematics btw. So now, I have a dead engine, one is running, I merely parallel the DOA side and off we go into the sunset for some more shark frolicking and a sing along like "what do ya do with a drunken sailor..."

yachtsmanbill said:

Sure thing captain ron... just like making that big run across the bay to anchor out and watch the sharks frolic, hit the switch and hear NADA. Thats ok tho, the deck boy can zip downstairs and switch over, call the bridge for a re-start, and stop by the galley for some cheap wine on the way back upstairs! Thats the best case scenario...
Now after everything is warmed up and you make that big return home trip back across the bay, and come into the basin and lose THAT ONE engine, we'll just have little Miguel zip back downstairs and throw those switches again, ring the bridge and tell you to restart. If thats the way you run that
70, I feel sorry for the owner!
That parallel switch is there for a reason, and if its HOT, ol' Mario has a problem. Lets see, a battery fire along with two glowing red alternators (we all know that Hatteras wasnt up to speed electrically, hell, the engineer here cant even spell!) and a panic situation, just have little Miguel run downstairs AGAIN to do some more switching. Just hope he can find his way out with all that smoke going on down there. Maybe he'll just say fork it, grab the box of wine, a PFD and bail out, while you sit there with that limp key in your hand.
If you are gonna make suggestions, make worthwhile ones will you please?
Watch this video of a tug that lost its ONLY engine for some giggles haha! ws

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrKHLQMA_5U&feature=related

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Come on Willy lets not get overly personal. "Box of wine". Now that's just mean

"The idea of running in parallel on the switch if a bank is dead brings up a question. What of the dead bank fries the other? Momentary parallel switches are much better."

i guess you missed the word "DISCONNECT" in my previous post:

"I would find it safer to disconnect that bank altogether, throw a parallel switch on and come home running both engine off the same bank than having the alternator dumping a lot of amps in a bank that's defective and about to go."

I didn't miss it I just did what most others would do. Ignored it because it is not practical and the chances of someone going below and disconnecting them 200 feet from the marina so you can start them is not a real world solution. If you cut the main battery switch you will not be able to start the engine off the parallel switch either so what is the plan?

Maybe you have more practice with all these emergency procedures than I do because I rarely have to use them. I check to make sure everything is right before I leave the dock or I don't go. I've come in on one of 2 engines less than 5 times in my life. Considering I have over 1000 days on the water I think that's probably pretty good.

I'm going to agree with Scott on this one. Mario seems like a good guy, but most of his posts so far indicate that he is not a marine electrician by any stretch. Suggesting a jury-rig as a fix for a factory designed system is just begging for problems. He needs to figure out where that overload is and fix it correctly, or get somebody who is a marine electrician to sort it out for him.

I love this forum! Thanks to everyone out there I found a local store here that repair starters and alternator and they have one very similar in size with the big connector in each side and the two little one's in the middle. The toggle is suppose to be in the middle when everything is ok? And if I understand correctly if I have a bank low I just move the toggle and is suppose to transfer power to the other one? I cut off the power that day. I hit them and my wife move the toggle and sounds clak etc but still incredible hot I think is original have a lot of rust amd say proudly America! Hope the new one fix the problem the toggle is already new and I have a New year eve trip and want my boat safer. Remember my DC was sitting out of the water for 9 years and they start at one turn without smoke with the old diesel bit with a cleaned tanks and every weekend I add 15 galons of fresh diesel. Thanks a lot!

Boatsb said:

I didn't miss it I just did what most others would do. Ignored it because it is not practical and the chances of someone going below and disconnecting them 200 feet from the marina so you can start them is not a real world solution. If you cut the main battery switch you will not be able to start the engine off the parallel switch either so what is the plan?

Maybe you have more practice with all these emergency procedures than I do because I rarely have to use them. I check to make sure everything is right before I leave the dock or I don't go. I've come in on one of 2 engines less than 5 times in my life. Considering I have over 1000 days on the water I think that's probably pretty good.

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i'm not talking about disconnecting or switching 200' from the marina... i'm talking about the typical, real world scenario of one engine not cranking after you've been on the hook for a while since house loads are powered by one of the banks.

if you've been underway for a while your batteries will be charged so restarting a stalled engine coming in the marina is not an issue.

but if you've been on the hook overnight without the genny running and one side if low, using a solenoid or a manual switch makes no difference, both works. you have plenty of time to go down below and you should anyway to make sure there isn't something else going on than just a low battery bank. maybe it's just me but unless i'm adrift, i woudn't press that solenoid switch without checking my ER first.

when i'm talking about disconnecting a bad bank, i'm not talking about turning off the switch. I'm talking about physically disconecting the battery terminals so that the failed battery is off line and disconnected from the charger). I've had to do that a couple of times in the past, when an AGM got really hot as it failed. if you have a manual swtich, you can use that to power the failed side... even more critical if that side is the side which power house loads.

Sounds good Mario. That old coil may just be tired or rotted and have high resistance. Also, it's my understanding that the parallel switch is supposed to be a momentary switch and not intended to be used continuously. Unfortunately, somebody bastardized the system on my boat and the switch is gone so I'm not 100% sure of that. Maybe some of our other members have their manuals handy.

Anyway, hopefully that will resolve your problem. Please keep us informed of your results.

Mario Tranquilein said:

I love this forum! Thanks to everyone out there I found a local store here that repair starters and alternator and they have one very similar in size with the big connector in each side and the two little one's in the middle. The toggle is suppose to be in the middle when everything is ok? And if I understand correctly if I have a bank low I just move the toggle and is suppose to transfer power to the other one? I cut off the power that day. I hit them and my wife move the toggle and sounds clak etc but still incredible hot I think is original have a lot of rust amd say proudly America! Hope the new one fix the problem the toggle is already new and I have a New year eve trip and want my boat safer. Remember my DC was sitting out of the water for 9 years and they start at one turn without smoke with the old diesel bit with a cleaned tanks and every weekend I add 15 galons of fresh diesel. Thanks a lot!

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easy check:

with the toggle in the middle, no power should be going to the solenoid and it should be cold. use voltmeter to check for power at the smaller wires on the sol.

move the toggle to either side and you will have power on those smaller wires. you should also hear a "clack" when it engages.

release the toggle and voltage on the smaller wires should drop to 0

reason the toggle has 2 position in addition to off is so that you can power the sol. from either bank. so when you need to use it, you would push the toggle to the side of the charged bank.

Boatsb said:

Mario if the switch is hot it probably is stuck in the on position and should be disconnected ASAP. The solenoid take power from the switch and closes the connection between the batteries but should release when the switch is released.

before you start ordering parts cut the power to the switch and see if the solenoid opens. Then apply power and see if it closes. You will probably hear it open and close.

I have has a few of the toggle switches go bad before and they will get hot and spark. Get the power cut to it ASAP.

Click to expand...

I completely agree.

I think Mario's boat is wired similar to mine. The power to that parallel switch toggle comes from either of two screw in type fuses between the main battery switches. They should be labeled BAT PRL. If you can unscrew them, at least the paralleling system will be disabled until you can figure out what's wrong with it.

FWIW, the PO of my boat (or a yard) had replaced the three position ON-OFF-ON momentary toggle switch with an ON-OFF switch. Guess what happened? It was left on and burned up the paralleling relay. I changed out the switch and also changed the paralleling relay. SAM's relay part is #24530. Not cheap so make sure you need a new one, but if it was left on it might be inevitable. A really difficult job on my boat as the relay is BEHIND the main switches and access is terrible. Hatteras seems to have never thought it might need replacing one day.

Mario Tranquilein said:

I love this forum! Thanks to everyone out there I found a local store here that repair starters and alternator and they have one very similar in size with the big connector in each side and the two little one's in the middle. The toggle is suppose to be in the middle when everything is ok? And if I understand correctly if I have a bank low I just move the toggle and is suppose to transfer power to the other one? I cut off the power that day. I hit them and my wife move the toggle and sounds clak etc but still incredible hot I think is original have a lot of rust amd say proudly America! Hope the new one fix the problem the toggle is already new and I have a New year eve trip and want my boat safer. Remember my DC was sitting out of the water for 9 years and they start at one turn without smoke with the old diesel bit with a cleaned tanks and every weekend I add 15 galons of fresh diesel. Thanks a lot!

Click to expand...

Mario Mine has the toggle and a push button so it can not be left on. Yours should too but then again I never count on anything being what what it was or should be anymore.

Mario Tranquilein said:

The toggle is suppose to be in the middle when everything is ok? And if I understand correctly if I have a bank low I just move the toggle and is suppose to transfer power to the other one?

Click to expand...

Yes, this is exactly how mine works. The toggle needs to be "momentary" though meaning it should return to center on its own. As I understand it, the purpose is to only start the engine with the weak battery which is why it should spring back to center. The system is not intended for long term paralleling of the banks.