Change in the Hatteras Market?

[eclipsarkanna]

Freebird:

Your point is very well put - I am guilty as charged regarding my attitude towards brokers (real estate brokers; boat brokers; etc.). There are good and bad in every walk of life. Having said that, I am finding a disproportionate number of brokers who think and act as if each Yacht was theirs - they assume that because I am not coming in at asking that I am some "street person" with insufficient funds and I should consider myself lucky that they have lowered themselves to even talk to me. I treat everyone with respect and when a broker is hired to be the Vendor's "goodwill ambassador" and sell his/her boat, they should take that role seriously. Anyway, the "friend" I was referring to on my earlier post is obviously you (and thanks for the call to the TN broker - I probably would have come unglued with his 'take it or leave it' attitude).

So my wrists are properly slapped for putting boat brokers in the same snake/sharkpit category that many used car salesmen and my profession seem to be thrown into. I will cease and desist from any further comments about brokers (at least until I have completed my purchase!!)

Bill

[Freebird]

You're welcome, I think.

[Freebird]

Looking up owners is easy if you can get the boat's name or doc number. The former is easy - the latter is a bit trickier (someone has to go visit it, but its easy to find on the boat - by law it has to be!) once you get inside.

If the boat is under contract with a listing broker they'll still get their percentage, BUT submitting the offer personally to the owner insures that the owner can't be "snowed" by the listing broker with the offer being hidden from him.

Some owners will get upset with such an approach, but if I'm a buyer, I don't care. There are a lot of boats and the buyer is always the guy with the blackjack hand. Don't get impatient as a buyer - take your time - and if you see something you like submit an offer for what you think its worth - whether the seller likes it or not is not material.

The worst thing the seller can do is say "no".

Dang PoohBear, that was downright on the head!

No seller who is truly interested in selling his boat, house... whatever is going to have a problem with a serious buyer wanting to purchse the thing he is seriously needing/wanting to sell. There are exceptions of course, but nothing ventured nothing gained seems to be appropriate.

Brokers are middlemen who sometimes simply get in the way in certain situations. I would much rather speak to or meet in person the current owner to have my questions answered as opposed to going through an interpreter with a not too well hidden agenda. Brokers are IMHO the guys who take your money, keep a little for themselves, and then give it to the cashier in the check out line. Now, if you can't find the cashier or can't speak the same language as the cashier, you may need his services. Otherwise... ?

I've never used a broker to serve as a buyer's agent, and I would use one to represent me in selling a boat only if I either did not have the time, or that broker was very experienced and knowlegdgeable to the point of supplying a buyer who I would not expect to be able to find on my own.

I have had many in the boat business make the statement to me "How the heck do you end up paying so little for boats". My secret, NEVER be afraid to make a lowball offer as every situation is different as to motivation to sell. Bill, the trick I told you on a PM seldom fails. In short, all offers are starting places even if it starts off on the wrong foot. Even if you offend someone with an unrealistic offer in their view, they will not be offended when you raise that offer. It's just playing the game boys.

[eclipsarkanna]

Freebird:

You are preaching to the converted son. How do I get around the YW brokers that say don't bother getting on a plane as it will be wasted money? How do I get by the broker that says my FEDEX offer won't be accepted because my deposit has to go to the broker (not to a Marine Title Company I propose to use to search title and act as escrow agent)? I am more than happy to start at my lower end of the scale pricing because of the sliding market, but I keep getting hit with these brick walls. The only way I see by them is to go direct to the owner and I volunteer to pay him an extra "fee" just so I don't have to suffer the broker meddling in the middle.

Bill

[Genesis]

If the broker is in Florida he is required by law to present all offers to the seller unless he has specific written instructions from the seller otherwise. If the seller has given those instructions then you are indeed wasting your time.

If a broker tells you otherwise in this state tell him you're going to hang up and call the state's Department of Professional Regulation and report him, and you'll be calling him back as soon as you've done so to discuss the delivery of your offer to his customer. Then do it. That will perk his ears up.

God help him if he was to refuse a FedEX'd envelope with your offer inside, or failed to forward it. The way to you handle that is that you include a countersignature line on your offer for both acceptance and rejection which must be signed by the owner, and a fax number and/or SASE in the package for the seller's response.

Now the broker's screwed - he is required by law to present that offer, and if you don't get back a countersigned copy (either "yes" or "no") then you've got him by the short and curlies. You also have proof your FedEX envelope was delivered to him.

I don't play nice with people who play this sort of game. If I can go to see the boat I will do that instead, get the doc number and/or name, and then search the USCG site for owner information. Its gotta be there, by law.

I now know where to send the FedEX envelope.

[luckydave215]

B

ottom line. I have absolutely zero use for brokers period and am going it alone now no matter how many brokers end up with my face on their dartboards.

You haven't found the right broker.
I have a broker I trust, and he's represented me in my last 5 boat deals. I would NEVER just walk in to a brokerage looking for a boat without having "my own" broker who is loyal only to me to represent me. You plan to go swimming with the sharks, it's smart to have one of them on your team.
I trust this guy, known him for 20 years, and I know that no matter what, he's on MY side. We operate on a clearly undetrstood "golden rule".....it's my gold, I make the rules. If I want to offer $6 for a boat, he writes it up, no argument, no matter how much a waste of time he thinks it might be. Sometimes (usually) he's right, sometimes not, but it's always my money, and he never forgets that. In return, I've shown him customer loyalty over the years, and referred plenty of buisness his way.
I can't understate how important it is to have brokers to buffer the negotiations between buyer and seller. Owners are illogically sentimental about used boats where they wouldn't be about a used wharehouse, tend to be foolishly unreasonable about the value, and easily take offence if you despairage their "lovingly maintained" (ignored) boat while making your arguments during the bargaining process.
Having representatives to insulate the personalities involved is just smart buisness practice.
Also, if I'm buying, the commision is split between the two brokers, so having my own broker doesn't cost me one cent extra. If the selling broker can't live with that, tries to ace out MY representative, too bad for him, I'll walk and he'll be eating more mac n'cheese than lobster.

[ADaily3224]

My friend who decided to sell his 36 Cape Dory sail boat made a decision to it with the broker who was on duty at the yard where he winter stored. I criticized him for his decision, I didn't know the guy and had never seen any advertising for their company. After a while it became evident that my initial criticism had merit. The pictures and write up were poor, I rewrote the description and bio about the boat and owner. After a few months, of nothingness I advised Tom to switch brokers. He was reluctant as he didn't want to hurt the guys feelings. I offered a simple solution. Give him a test. Simple, have a friend send him a request for information. We did and he failed, it took six days to get a lame response. Broker fired, at least he didn't try to make excuses and save the listing, he took the firing with dignity, what the heck, he was in an indefensible position. So, a new broker was hired, RCR Yachts, they are local and do a very well written e-mail news letter monthly, they have ads in Soundings, and are all over the Internet. Their speciality is mostly in sail but they have a couple power boat franchises, Saber, Black Cove. Anyway the listing was placed at $85,000. The first offer came in at $50,000. The broker presented the offer with a check and said it was a very clean offer albeit low. Clean meaning a cash deal with no contingencies. A counter was presented back to the buyer at $80,000. After a series of back and forth offers a final price of $76,000 was accepted.
There were Fed X charges but other than that what was expended? The boat is sold, and everyone is happy, nice story. The point of all this is proof of what Karl wrote. A broker does not have the right to reject an offer. I have been in the Automobile business all my life, if a buyer makes an offer we write it. The buyer on the Cape Dory mentally took possession with the $50,000 offer, it was just a matter of a little salesmanship to get the numbers agreeable to everyone. If you don't write it and present it, the sale will never happen. I think a buyers broker is fine, just make sure he isn't a jackass.
Now Tom wants a 49LRC, he's very much a buyer, doesn't need financing and is a nice easy guy to get along with. I'll let you know how the rest of the story goes.

Tony D

[captddis]

All good points. I do not know of any broker who will not present a offer WITH a signed contract AND a 10% refundable deposit. Most will not accept a offer that is verbal only. I would not either, it is meaningless.
If I find exactly what I want, I try to get the best price and then buy it. I have kicked myself for loosing something for a couple dollars.
I have dealt with many brokers, yes some are dirtbags but most are professionals. They need to make a living too.

[eclipsarkanna]

Genesis:

I like your idea of the "rejection" line as well. I will try that and simply waste the money on the FEDEX charges even if I never see a reply. I guess if I put in the offer that my deposit will be delivered to the Escrow Agent within 48 hours of receiving a signed acceptance, the broker has no way of meddling in that arrangement (and too bad the deposit is not in his account). Thanks for the suggestion. All other suggestions/recommendations were also noted. However, I will still take a pass on having a broker represent me despite the strong recommendations for the one broker - there is absolutely NOTHING that a buyer's broker can bring to the table (he is not a marine surveyor; he has to translate everything I say and re-communicate it to the Seller's broker; he acts as a time delay; he may well be in the buddy network with the other brokers along with the Seller's broker; he doesn't speak for the Vendor - its beyond me what a broker would bring to the table for a buyer but I am always willing to learn).

Bill

Bill

[Genesis]

You'll get a reply. Make sure you note in your cover letter that you are aware that the broker is legally obligated to present all offers.

He'll figure it out.

If you get no reply in a week or so after you send the offer, find out who owns the boat and send a certified letter, return receipt requested, to the owner's address (from the doc records) explaining that you are indeed seriously interested in his boat and that if he has not received your offer his broker is violating the law (and keeping him from selling the boat!) Include a photocopy of your deposit check to the intended escrow agent.

If you have trouble getting the boat's name and home port or doc number so you can trace the owner find someone on the forum who lives within a reasonable driving distance to put in a call and go have a look. I'll do it for any boat within an hour's drive of here, no problem at all. You'll also get an "in person" assessment of the boat this way too. Once you have the name and/or doc number, you can get your offer to the seller directly.

If the seller finds out that his broker is refusing to present offers it will result in a shizstorm being visited upon the broker immediately. If I had a broker do that to me he'd find himself minus his broker's license.

That's well worth the 39 cents it will cost.

I never present an offer to anyone for something without requesting that they sign something - whether they intend to take the offer or not. I also put a time limit on the response, typically 3-5 business days, and give the seller both my address and return fax numbers.

I've never had a seller "swallow" such an offer and not reply in some fashion. It also greatly increases your chance of getting a "Yes".

Someone who isn't happy about your offer's number but has to sign a formal "no" (instead of just pretending to ignore you) has to put his pen on the paper and refuse your deal. That very act will make him think two, three, four times before the ink goes on the paper.

Sellers often think the only real two choices that force them to use ink are a "yes" or a counteroffer. I always "force" the seller to give me a "no" in writing. Of course he can just ignore you, but 99% of the time that won't happen - you'll get SOME sort of response if you specifically insist on it.