UPDATE: Boat Crash in MI

[mstailey]

Here is an update to the news item I posted earlier in the week.

http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4031

I'm posting this because:
1) I originally put it out there and felt it was my obligation to find more info and update all of you and
2) I feel it does pertain to us as a reminder of when it all goes wrong

No doubt this will spark a few mentions from most of us as this type of thing hits us all hard and while any and all opinions posted here are always welcomed - Please, I do not want to be the cause of blog fights.

So that said, here's what I think -
Both operators were ABSOLUTELY in the WRONG. As we do not know for sure if alcohol was involved or what either operator knew / did not know about rules of the waterway from the story at this point, 1 item is crystal clear in my mind.

Damage to the 1 boat and the root cause of the crash indicates both boats were traveling to fast for conditions

As stated above, I will say again the story did not indicate what the operators knew about the rules of the waterways so could have licensing / classes have overted this tragedy? IMHO it would have not as we are reminded of what happens when you run fast in the dark from the sinking post earlier in the week.

You could even spin it as they knew the rules but speculate 1 or both had been drinking. I can even think of other ways to spin this one, so on an so forth.

BUT anyway you spin it or what ever comes out of the investegation -

Both operators were at fault. Period.

It's a shame.






------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Greenwood / The Detroit News
The St. Clair County Sheriff's Department is investigating a crash between two boats on Lake St. Clair late Saturday that claimed the life of a 14-year-old Harrison Township boy. The body of Tyler Doughty, a student at L'Anse Creuse Middle School, was recovered at about 8:45 a.m. Sunday in about 10 feet of water, according to Lt. William Krul, of the sheriff department's marine patrol division.
"The two boats crashed together at about 11:30 p.m. Saturday," Krul said.
"The victim was sleeping in the forward berth in the boat which his father was piloting. They were on their way into Lucas Marina, in Bouvier Bay, and then home to Harrison Township.
"Another boat, occupied by two 28-year-old men (one from Brighton, the other from Fowlerville), were also headed into Bouvier Bay. They saw each other at the last moment and tried to avoid each other, but unfortunately they turned into each other."
According to Krul, the force of the crash was so great that the forward section of the boat in which Doughty was riding was ripped from the vessel. The victim's father dove into the water with a flashlight looking for his son, but was unable to locate him.
"We responded to the crash, along with the U.S. Coast Guard. We dived in the area until about 2 a.m. but were unable to locate the unfortunate boy until Sunday morning. The passengers in the other boat were treated and released from River District Hospital, in St. Clair. The investigation is still underway and we are trying to determine if drugs or alcohol were a factor in the crash."
Although there were many life jackets on the boat, the victim wasn't wearing one because he was sleeping below deck and it was thought to be unnecessary. A salvage crew was able to recover the boat in which Doughty was riding.

[Passages]

I don't believe anything more needs to be said. As the father of a 13 year old son, it too tragic, hits too close to home, too depressing.

Be careful out there...please...

[Genesis]

Yep.

Two guys, both running at high speed in the dark.

I don't do it and this is a graphic example of why.

[Freebird]

I don't believe anything more needs to be said. As the father of a 13 year old son, it too tragic, hits too close to home, too depressing.

Be careful out there...please...

AMEN! Don't want to go down that road again!

[(Nobody You Know)]

"Both operators were ABSOLUTELY in the WRONG. As we do not know for sure..."

It remains a horrible tradgedy for anyone to be killed while boating. However…

1. You do NOT know if one or both boats were traveling at a rate of speed that was too fast for conditions. Rule 5.
2. You do NOT know if both operators were intoxicated nor for that matter if in fact any one operator was intoxicated. Local law.
3. You do NOT know if any one of the operators maintained a proper look out. Rule 6.
4. You do NOT know if any one of the boats involved failed to display proper running lights. Rule 23.
5. You do NOT know if any one of the boats involved had the other on her port side and made proper effort to keep out of the way (and if the circumstances of the case admit, avoided crossing ahead of the other vessel). Rule 15.
6. Yes, all vessels “may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger” and as the sheriff said, we do know this: “They saw each other at the last moment and tried to avoid each other”. Rule 8.

Can both operators be at fault? Possible. (No spin, just the facts and the law.)
Could one of the operators be in violation of one or all of the first four rules above? Possible.
Could one of the operators be in compliance with all of the Navigation Rules that apply? It is possible!

I’m no maritime lawyer, and often, you cannot predict which way a judge or jury will rule on a certain situation. And I don’t subscribe to the notion that in the event of an accident at sea both (or all) parties involved are at fault. Before you go passing judgement on both parties it is entirely possible that one of those boaters could have caused this whole thing, while the other tried desperately to avoid it. We don’t know!

On another note…
Would mandatory boater licensing reduce the number of on water fatalaties? Damn right.
The state of Alabama reports that fatalities dropped by almost 50% the first year the Act went into effect (1999) and have remained in the range of 12 to 22 from a high of 32 before the mandatory licensing. These results are in spite of annual increases in boater participation. (per Lt. Erica Shipman Alabama Marine Police, Dept. of Conservation and Natural Resurces - erica.shipman@dcnr.alabama.gov).

And speakin of licensing, this is not to say that because one is a licensed captain he or she exercises prudence when operating a boat. Are some boaters bad boaters? Yes. Are all boaters bad boaters? Of course not. Are some licensed captains jerks? Yes. Are all licensed captains jerks? Of course not. I myself had had my share of close calls and having been victimized by inconsiderant (and uneducated) jerks on the water. And I have made my share of mistakes likewise – fortunately nothing serious. The colossal crown jewel of assholes in Carolina Beach is a charter captain who operates a “Large” sports fisherman (not a head boat) – if you locals get my drift. And if you have done any considerable boating at all you know what it’s like to have a screaming 40’ or 50+ footer blow by you at night, or worse, hear it but never see it in a fog so thick you can’t see your own bow pulpit (like the fogs you have on Long island Sound or the Chocktawachee in Florida).

Do some bad boaters who take state mandatory boating courses improve on their boating? Fortunately the answer is yes. And while we can allow that only a mature person with a passion for safe boating will seek to imporve his or her boating skills through education, some boaters – with no desire for self improvenent – will benefit from same though however force fed (thank gawd). The facts point to it (at least in Alabama anyway).

Don’t get me wrong on this. As a Libertarian I am the last person to want to see government erode one more freedom. But we live in an ever more complicated world. I refer back to my statement in the thread “Stupid, Stupid, Stupid”. Do away with drivers licenses and see what happens to the fatality rate on our streets and highways. This Sunday I will boarding the big bird for the UK and I cannot even carry onboard hand lotion (even though it’s already been proven that all you have to do is simply put it in your pocket and those security morons – whom I entrust with mine and my wife’s security – will never catch it). But if this is what it take to make flying safe FINE WITH ME. In this day and age we have far more boats with greater power and more displacement plowing the same narrow channels, water ways and inlets than we have ever dreamed.

Children (and grown ups) do not have to die as a result of adult carelessness. The next time you are on the water and some jerk gives you no alternative but to take signficant action to avoid collision – which I suspect that most everyone reading this thread would do – Think about who really caused that close call.

Capt’n Bill

“Rule # 1: Don’t do anything stupid”. Lt. Dan, Forest Gump (speaking of Alabama)

[Genesis]

Just a couple of things here....

1. On 9/11, not one prohibited item was brought on board an aircraft. Boxcutters were not against the rules. There was no security violation.

2. Today, 90% of all cargo carried in Jets is unscreened. Half the cargo hold on an average passenger flight is full of commercial cargo (e.g. shipments of various kinds)

3. We know that when a collision occurs on the water that both captains are almost always responsible to some degree. This is because the COLREGs are intentionally designed this way. So are the Inland Rules. By definition if you are hit you did not maintain a proper lookout and/or did not (or could not, due to your speed) take evasive action in time - unless the other vessel intentionally hit you. The rules actually require to you stop if that is necessary.

There is no human endeavor that is free of risk. Your statement that "Children (and grown ups) do not have to die as a result of adult carelessness." is false. Both children and adults always have and always will die (sometimes) due to adult (and childhood) carelessness. It is the very nature of life that we face risks each and every day to our continued existence, and life is, in fact, quite fragile.

I am not willing to sacrifice my liberty for perceived safety. I refuse to fly since 9/11 not because I am afraid of being blown up but because I refuse to tolerate the outrageous intrusions into my liberties - none of which I judge do a damn thing to make me safer - that are demanded of me in order to do so. Instead of flying, I choose to withhold my money from the airlines and all destinations where I would otherwise spend it as my means of economic protest. May the airlines and tourism-driven businesses and local economies where I would otherwise spend my funds all rot in Hades.

This nation was founded on personal responsibility and personal freedom. These freedoms have been perverted beyond all reason. People died all the time during the founding of this nation due to being thrown from a horse, stomped by said horse, or all sort of other maladies inherent in using 1,000 lb beasts as transportation. Now we use 3,000 lb man-made beasts and think that this endeavor should be entirely free of risk.

Hogwash.

Today, my daugher rides said beasts - for pleasure. It is the law that I cannot sue if she is thrown and killed by one. Why? Because the law recognizes that horses are unpredictable creatures and that there are inherent risks in this activity - and that by choosing to participate, you accept those risks. She knows this, I know this, she rides anyway.

How is boating any different? You think that because the wingnut behind the wheel is a homo sapien that somehow invalidates the idea that they may be unpredictable? Balderdash.

If you wish to be free of risk - other than that which is self-imposed - then go move to the top of a mountain, fence your yard, and shoot anyone who comes through. You are then free of risk - except for lightning strikes, attacks by bees and wasps, flood, fire, earthquake and slips in your bathtub. Oops.

By the way, in case you're wondering, over 500,000 people require hospitalization and 20,000 people die from slips and falls every year in North America - many of them in the bathroom.

That ought to put the few who die in boating accidents in the proper perspective - not to mention the insane amount of restrictions we tolerate on our personal freedom in other areas for what are very few deaths caused by these other causes (e.g. aircraft terrorism)

That's my 2 cents worth.... take it for whatever value you find in it.

[(Nobody You Know)]

"both captains are almost always responsible to some degree."

On that we may have a little common ground.

Also, if I could drive to England (and at the same time never set foot in Jackson-Hartsfield Airport as well) believe me I would.

Thanks for the response.

Capt'n Bill

[Trojan]

I think your ideas have marrette Genesis. But I too think that the safe boating course should be mandatory for all boat operators. Just like the rule that men will never ask for directions. They (operators) will never read the rules for on the water. Myself, wife and 6 children have all taken the course. Through the years I have taken it 4 or 5 times. Each time learning something new. I know it has made my family a lot smarter about boating in general and safe boating. I think they need to standardize on the course. I also think the price they charge is wrong but that is another issue. I know the course works because of the questions the family ask. They know about on board safety, they know about navigation and the rules of the waterway. They are constantly pointing out boaters that are not following the rule including myself. It's not going to change all the boaters attitude. That includes driver licences. Only the ones that want to change will use the knowledge. I think it works and will promote it to everyone.





BILL

[Genesis]

Point being Trojan that if the Nav Rules are followed in full by either captain you will not have a collision. They are designed this way on purpose!

Therefore, it only takes one.

What this means is that your risk is personal. You are, quite literally, in control of the destiny of those on board your vessel. You choose to leave the dock, you choose when to return, you choose to run an inlet at night, you choose to operate at high speed in the dark.

I do not want to see mandatory anything in this regard. I do not have a problem with promoting the value of instruction, provided that you are not compelled to participate by force. And all government mandates are inherently enforced at gunpoint - just refuse sometime and see how fast the guns come out.

[Trojan]

I agree with you Genesis. But if you don't ever open a book you will never learn the rules. Most of the boaters never open that book on there own. After all it's only a boat. I think the rules today are just fine. They just need to learn them. Even if it's by force. Same as a car.



BILL