Fossil-Fuels Question

[spartonboat1]

I post this only because of our fondness for diesel fuel and/or gasoline.

Like the proverbial robot, the press, and the rest of us really, refer to the oil pumped world wide as "fossil fuels". The emphasis is on a depletable resource. However, this may be another of those old wives tales (hope that phrase is ok), since studies are now indicating that the source of oil is in fact mother earth, produced far below in the earth's crust and not a by-product of fossils. The Russian's seemed to have discovered this, when finding oil in areas were there was no evidence of fossil remains to any extent. Others note that there is little to no evidence of fossils in most oil that is produced, i.e. pumped from the earth.

In recent years, some old fields that were "played out" have started to produce again, in some cases to a greater volume than previously, appearing to have been resupplied, as it were.

Oh, well, late at night. Hope this doesn't detract from the site mission.

[luckydave215]

Oil produced deep within the earth?
Not from old organic matter?

Yet another urban myth.

[Genesis]

This one keeps coming up again and again.

But - is it true? I don't know. What I do know is that hydrocarbons are, well, carbon-based things. So where's the carbon coming from?

Remember, we don't have nuclear processes going on inside the earth. That only happens in/on the Sun. We have chemical processes, but that means to make the hydrocarbons you need, at minimum, hydrogen and carbon.

Gotta figure out how the carbon gets in there if "mother earth" is "making" it......

[Boss Lady]

I also have a particular fondness for diesel fuel and do not relish the idea of having to become a dreaded blow boater. Maybe one day I will find one of the Hatteras Motorsailers (a real sailboat with real Detroit Diesels), wind not blowing? crank up the DD and go, storm coming, out run it. I think Hatteras made about 30 of these. I also like my A/C and hot showers, something the sailboat crowd must have an aversion for (at least for bathwater, PeeYew!) This may well be my next project boat for retirement days.

I don't think our problem is how much fossil fuels are available, but refining capacity. Just because Exxon or BP has a refinery here, does not necessarily mean that the gas stays here. We are in a global economy and the stuff goes where the highest bidder is. Most of the Texas refinery capacity was sold to Mexico. The Kuwaitis have been threatening to build a refinery for years, because they see the bottle neck coming. More demand than the refineries can supply, but oil capacity is available. Our shale oil is competitive when oil is above $40 barrel, the Canadians have enough shale to supply the world for 350 years. So natural resources are not the problem.

The real problem is we do not have a national energy policy that makes sense to business. No one is willing to invest in shale oil recovery, biofuels, or anything else for that matter, since they all got burned in 1979, after spending a fortune on shale production, and ethenol production and then crude oil dropped below $20 barrel and stayed there, they lost their investments. Just when ethyenol starts to get off the ground here, the Brazilians offer their ethyenol to us for $0.50 gallon, so what happens to the people who invest in ethenol and it costs $0.80 cents to make it. Ethyenol can be mixed with gas at the 10% level and give a 6% gain in available fuel resources for cars. That is 6% less fuel that has to be refined or bought off shore. Biomass is the only realistic solution for us in the long term. Hybrid cars are a joke, the best fuel savings we can get is to refurbish existing cars, I saw a study where the energy costs to make a hybrid car consumes more fuel and creates more toxic waste so that there never is a reduction in energy use. It sounds good, but it is really just a feel good thing for the stupid liberal tree huggers. Hydrogen is never going to happen, the energy cost to crack H2O to make it is stupid. All this pie in the sky or blue sky (vapor) energy solutions just make us waste time in getting to a real solution. Silicon based solar is unrealistic, wind power will not get us there and cost too much, and with maintenance. Geothermal is realistic. Solar thermal is realistic (make steam for turbine generators) , but not possible everywhere it is needed.

Gas and diesel are going out of sight, the Indians and Chinese are filling up mopeds and crushing the world availability, wait until they get cars and airplanes and see how you like the price. 2.4 billion people between the chinese and the Indians, we have 300 million guess who is going to lose? The chinese have 1 trillion of our dollars to buy what they want, and we gave it to them, what manufacturing the unions didn't run off, went there via walmart, kmart, and others. EPA sent our steel production offshore along with its' lucrative blue collar jobs. Henry Ford created the middle class lifestyle singlehandedly, when he paid his workers a wage to buy his cars with, now you either work in management or in the service industry. Bye Bye middle class. It will be rich 10%, middle class 30%, and poor 60% very soon.

Want cheap oil? Then we have to strip mine the shale fields, drill the gulf and Alaska, and be prepared to start shooting the foaming at the mouth liberal environmentalists to get it. They liberals are all lying hipocrites, the don't live in mud huts, walk everywhere, or use candles for lighting. They drive SUVs, use plastics, and consume energy and create waste just like the rest of us do, and they just bitch how we, not them, are wrecking the planet. Mount Pinatubo released more green house gases than man has made since the beginning of time, well guess what? We still have an ozone layer and the earth actually got colder, not hotter. The chinese will be drilling in the gulf of mexico soon, just outside our economic interest zone there, but we will not be drilling for a drop. Wait until gas is $5.00 gallon and that is where it is going. We need a machine that boils down liberals and makes diesel fuel.

my $0.02 cents.

[GaryNW]

Liberals are the problem? They must be the execs of exxon then. A good while back it was acknowledged by big oil that once oil got to over $30 a barrel, old wells would become profitable again and domestic production would increase. The only reports I've seen of old wells and equipment coming back concern small time wildcaters. Exxon loves the status quo, what part of highest profits in the history of the universe don't people get? It is time to round up energy execs, their lobbyests and the politicians who back them and put them all on collective farms, where they should die. I may consider supporting organ havesting, then death. Did you know that in the 40's, 60% of federal tax came from corporations and today the figure is 16%? Get used to China. They are paying for the bush tax cuts and will expect something in return. They would be damn fools if they couldn't figure out better energy policy than ours. Oh, I forgot, we don't have one.
Gary

[Boss Lady]

I look up the profit per gallon for the oil companies, last year it was $0.05 per gallon, and here in NC the state gets $0.46 per gallon in taxes. Just remember that companies like Exxon also sell gas to the rest of the world, not just here, so all the "profits" that everyone is up in arms about did not come only from us. We were negotiating an aviation fuel supply deal with Conaco, here is the break down in prices, price at the terminal for 100 octane, $1.68, 5 cents gallon delivery charge, 46 cents tax, 16 cents gallon to airport commission, sales price $2.85 gallon. cost to acquire fuel =

1.68
0.05
0.46
0.16
total
2.35

gross profit 0.50 gallon

Through in FAA compliance, insurance, fuel handler, fuel truck, and the real profit is like 20 cents a gallon.

you can look up current plat prices online.

Divide and conquer tactics are at work, big oil versus us little guys. The big winner is the government they make the most and do nothing to get it. My personal taxes between state and federal equals 56% of every dollar I make so they get 56 cents of every dollar and I get to keep 44 cents. Show me how that is fair. C corporations pay 16% income taxes on gross profits, then they distribute the net profits to their stock holders, who then have to pay personal income taxes on the money they receive, so if you owned Exxon stock and one share of stock earns $1 dollar gross profit, you will only receive 84 cents, then you get the honor of paying taxes on you 84 cents at what ever income tax bracket you fall into, most americans are in the 28% bracket so your 84 cents is now 60 cents after taxes. In my tax bracket the 84 cents is only worth 40 cents. Show me the rich man tax breaks please!!!!

Welcome to bracket creep, go look at the percentage of the population that paid any taxes in the 40's also look at the AMT, alternative minimum tax, and how many people it affected when it was passed, maybe a few hundred people, now, if you make more than $140K house hold income you are subject to AMT, that is where they take back all your write offs, like home mortagage credit, medical bill deductions, etc. until you have ZERO write offs. Now look at how many americans pay taxes. You have been lied to again, the corporations still pay the same they always have, the difference is that more citizens are paying by percentage of the population, and it makes it look like the corporations are not paying their fair share. Most big companies are publicly held, meaning that the real owners are mutual funds and the like, which is really school teachers, plumbers, who invest in 401Ks. So now tell me who is getting rich? The execs do get their big salaries, and golden parachutes, but the real money gets distributed to the stock holders. So how much "more" of your 84 cents do you want to give the government???

[Hows Hatt]

Bullseye, Boss Lady. Whenever I hear someone bitch about gas prices and obscene oil company profits, I suggest they buy oil company stock. And a bike. I like to think I have some grey matter, but I just can not figure out how so many supposed bright people refuse to see the whole picture and cast blame inappropriately. I sure don't have all the answers, but drilling ANWAR and building more refineries seems to make sense to me. It makes no sense to blame (and punish by incresed tax burden) those who are successful in a free enterprise system. Just my 2 cents. Howard in West Michigan

[yachtscape]

Hybrid cars are a joke, the best fuel savings we can get is to refurbish existing cars, I saw a study where the energy costs to make a hybrid car consumes more fuel and creates more toxic waste so that there never is a reduction in energy use. It sounds good, but it is really just a feel good thing for the stupid liberal tree huggers.

Agree with everything you have said except for the above. I'm definitely no tree hugger and burn a few bucks of diesel to go just one mile on water like the rest of us While on land, my 3/4 ton suburban is necessary for my other vices and just plain safe and comfortable to ride in.

I saw the same study before I bought a Hybrid. If you really want to stick it to the manufacturer, buy a Hybrid. At present, they (and the IRS through credits) are bearing ALL of the extra cost for the consumer to own certain Hybrids. I'm getting a true combined 47 mpg and paid the same net price as a non-hybrid car. Resale values are quite strong and probably will stay strong or get stronger with these fuel prices. And the biggest reason to buy a Hybrid for me was that if there is ever a supply problem (quite possible with a constantly unstable middle east), I want to have the ability to go 47 miles on one gallon of fuel in air conditioned comfort, not 35 miles on my motorcycle, 17 miles in my suburban or 2 in my Hatteras. At least for the moment, it is a sweet situation for the Hybrid consumer. Let the manufacturer and the IRS take it on the chin for a change, BEFORE they start passing through all of the actual costs to the Hybrid consumer.

[luckydave215]

The carbon come out of the atmosphere. Have you ever wondered where a tree gets it's mass and bulk? If a tree got it's mass out of the ground, how come there isn't a hole equal to the tree's size around it? It absorbs CO2 from the air around it.
The earth DOES have nuclear processes inside. It's the decay of isotopes that generate heat in the core.

[Genesis]

Lucky, the point on nuclear processes is that we do not have FUSION going on, and the decay of isotopes is not producing carbon.

Second, on hybrids. You're nuts. Yes, they will get in the mid 40mpg range, but you give up easy servicability, you have a $3,000 battery pack in them that will eventually need replacing (and is full of toxic waste), you have to pay to haul that pack around all the time and the parts prices on them are in the stratosphere - and single-sourced.

Try a diesel VW Jetta. I drove over 8,000 miles this summer with my kid having fun. Total fuel burn? Under 200 gallons. I get an honest 42-43 mpg putting around and on vacations like that approach 50mpg. I'd be closer to 60mpg if I'd keep my foot out of it, but I like going 80mph, and so does the car Oh, and I have a station wagon with real cargo carrying capacity - we had the entire front and back seats to ourselves and only half the cargo area full. Try THAT with a Prius!

You want to know why there's a refinery crunch? We refuse to build them due to environmentalists and NIMBY idiots. Yes, the "big oil" companies don't want to build any, because they like making money. Ok, what stops YOU from building one and getting a piece of those "obscene profits"? Answer that and you'll understand.

As for the price of gasoline or diesel, its quoted on the Merc. Go look it up. To that you add taxes. Notice the difference in price between the Merc's spot price and the pump price? Good. Notice how much profit the oil companies make on the gallon? Good. Notice anything funny about the difference? Who's raping who? Yep.

We have five times the petroleum of Saudi Arabia - a 30 year supply - in shale out west. It has to be strip-mined to be economically recovered, and we refuse. We have the reserves of Iran offshore the US, but you have to drill to go get it, and again, we refuse.

Long-term gasoline engines are a non-starter, as they cannot be economically fueled with any biofuel. Ethanol is a great idea but you can't make enough to replace gasoline.

This is not true for diesel engines. Blue-green algae could replace all of our diesel and gasoline fuel requirements (assuming 100% conversion to diesel engines) using something like 2% of the US landmass. That's achieveable. Its also carbon-cycle neutral and sustainable forever. Why don't we move that way? Environmentalists again - they hate diesels because they make soot. Well, sooner or later you have to choose which evil you want, or you get the ones that are forced on you.

Want a real solution? You'll find it here:

http://genesis3.blogspot.com/2006/01...uation-to.html