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Thread: Engine Issues

  1. #1
    Jackman Guest

    Engine Issues

    Okay....we took my 32ft 1985 FB out for the first run of the season. Round trip only about 50nm. 2nm from the inlet, on the way back, we heard a manging noise that seems to be a lifting rod on the port engine. We haven't opened her up yet to take a look inside but will next weekend. The engines are original model 350 454 Crusader gas eating machines!

    Now the issue...one you've heard a million times over...if I have more damage than can be repaired without pulling the engine I am considering a repower. If I go gas which engines would you guys suggest and if I go diesel which would you suggest. I would like to stay Crusader if I go gas and if diesel I'm considering the Yanmar....probably something from the six cylinder line. My problem is that there are too many model numbers in Yanmar and I'm not sure what the optimum horsepower would be.

  2. #2
    jim rosenthal Guest

    repower of 32C

    I don't know where you are, but you should consider asking Tony Athens at Seaboard Marine aobut this if you are out West, and maybe even if you aren't. He is very up on these and sells both Yanmar and Cummins, which would be my top choices. The boat would run very well with 350hp per side or so. Witht he cost of gasoline as it is, and not coming down any time soon, I would go with diesels if you like the boat a lot and plan to keep it.

  3. #3
    Genesis Guest

    This is not an easy decision

    A diesel conversion will run you upwards of $50,000. Remember, you must replace the genset (if you have one), too, because you cannot mix gas and diesel powered engines in the same engine room - that's against the ABYC and USCG rules, unless EVERYTHING in the engine room is ignition protected (diesels are usually NOT!)

    You need to burn a LOT of gas to make that back.

    It WILL increase the value of the boat, but not by the amount you invest - not even close.

    You can buy TEN new, in-crate gas engines for what it will cost you to repower.

    Repowering with diesels will vastly extend your range, improve performance, lower your fuel burn and the fuel is much less expensive. On the contrary side maintenance is far more involved and expensive with diesels (if you farm it out), and the consequences of neglecting it are WAY more expensive.

    If you want to repower, don't do it on economics. Do it because you want to own the boat for 10 or more years AND you want the other advantages of diesel power.

  4. #4
    Jackman Guest

    Repower

    I plan on keeping the boat for quite some time. I don't think, unless I win the lottery or have a rich uncle pass, that I'll be able to step up to what some of you guys have. That's a reality to me and I'm very happy with the boat I have. My problem is somewhat related to what Genesis said...."You can buy TEN new, in-crate gas engines for what it will cost you to repower." I know the good things and the bad things about both. My father and I have done absolutely everything on this boat since we have had it. All cosmetics, mechanicals, new installations....The only time its ever been to the marina is when it was delivered. We do it all. We just happened to get to the point where I'm not entirely sure that the engines will be around much longer and need to think about repowering.

    Do I go with a more high HP gas engine with fuel injection or do I stay with the carbs, something I can easily work on while offshore? Do I step up to the plate an put in some diesels?

    I need a minimum of 350HP but don't know what the max is that I can fit in the boat. I want it to remain comfortable to work on since I do all the work myself....so I don't want an engine that "just fits" into the engine compartments and leaves no room to move around. I don't have a genset so thats not an issue at this point in time. I can live without it for awhile.

    Well...when I bought the boat I got it for 47k. I knocked the guy down pretty good based on what I saw. Boats in similar condition and years are being advertised for about 75 to 80k....with 100hrs on their motors. At the moment the boat is significantly better than when I bought it! The diesel powered boats are going for much more than that. So I figure diesel is a viable option. I will be thinking quite a bit about this over the next couple of weeks. Keep chimin in....its appreciated!

  5. #5
    mikep996 Guest

    454

    When you say, "a manging [banging?] noise that seems to be a lifting rod on the port engine," is it a heavy knocking sound that can be felt if you touch the engine while it's running? A metallic tapping sound? A clattering metallic sound?

    When you refer to a "lifting rod" are you speaking of the pushrod that actuates the rocker arm in the valve train? If the noise you are referring to IS valve train related (metallic tapping) the solution is quite possibly just replacing the hydraulic lifters which is fairly cheap and not very difficult (if you do it yourself - nothing on a boat is cheap if you have the typical incompetent boat "mechanic" do it.)

    One thing to check, if you haven't already is the oil quantity and pressure. Low oil level and/or low pressure will cause Hydraulic lifters to bleed down and become noisy. So the first thing I'd do is change the oil/filter.

    If it's a heavy "thumping" noise that can be felt if you place a hand on the engine while it's running, you are likely looking at main bearing problems. This will require the engine to be pulled and a complete overhaul should be done. It is possible to replace mains without overhauling the engine (and maybe without actually removing it from the boat - depending on clearance underneath the engine) but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

  6. #6
    Jackman Guest

    Noise

    I did mean "banging noise" ..was a typo. Anyhow....I'd describe the noise as a metallic noise like the one you hear when a high pressure liquid pump makes when it gets airbound from having air trapped in the area of the cylinders, which is why I thougt it may be a push rod because. When you bring up the rpms it then sounds like the 3cylinder kubota diesel that was in my tractor. We are going to take it apart in the next week to check things out. I will be changing the oil and checking for metal. If its a push rod I should be able to tell pretty quickly as soon as the valve covers are off.

    The oil level looked fine, by the way, and it was changed when I winterized it.


    I will see if the engine is repairable but I am looking at my options meanwhile. I'm loking at the age of the power plants. They are vintage FWC 1985 crusader model 350 454's with 2300 hours on them at the moment. Its probably time for them to see "crusader heaven" if you know what I mean. If I can nurse them for this season I will so I won't loose a season.

    Thanks for the advice...I will take it with me to the boat next weekend.

  7. #7
    mike Guest

    engine noise

    The noise the you describe may be a rod bearing. Valve train noise is at half the rpm of the normal engine noise because the cam shaft and lifters are spinning at half the the engine speed by design. If it's so loud that you describe it as a diesel sound you most likely have a bad rod bearing. Main bearing noises are more of a growling sound when put under severe load. In order too validate if it is a bearing failure attach a mechanical oil pressure guage right at the oil port at the back of the engine. If you see an erratic reading such that the needle is radically moving as the engine is at a fast idle, you then can conclude you have a bad rod bearing, especially if the noise increases with rpm. 454's are very sensitive to oil loss to the pump such as you would get in a boat. Mike 53MY "Finally"

  8. #8
    adaily3224 Guest

    Re: engine noise

    Mike,
    I can't advise you to go with gas or diesel but I will say that 2,300 hrs in salt water is a very long life for your present engines. I also wouldn't attempt to tell you what is wrong, it could be many or a variety of things. At any rate my only advise is if you choose gas go with the latest technology fuel injected engines you can afford to buy. They are safer, more reliable, and more economical. They are tougher to do the "do it yourself" diagnostics but have a port for a professional tech to plug his lap top into to find out what went wrong. You have a great boat there, might as well spend the money to make it safe and sound. There's nothing in it's class to compare. Just my thoughts Tony D

  9. #9
    Genesis Guest

    Agree in part, disagree in others....

    I don't know about the "go maximum electronic" stuff....

    Electronics and salt water don't mix all that well. And being offshore without engines as a result of a "brain box" dying is not my idea of a good time.

    With that said, you are stuck with this to some extent with most current engines, whether gas or diesel, and of course gas engines rely on power to run in any event, even if they're old-style "points and condensor" motors.

    I really LIKE my old Jimmys. They're loud, burn more fuel, and are nowhere near as "refined" as newer diesels. BUT, having suffered an electrical failure 60 nautical miles offshore, and having gotten home without fanfare or incident when it happened......

    This much I know for certain - at best in that scenario with "newfangled electronic engines" I would have been coming in on one, and I would definitely not have enjoyed the "extra time" that required. Worst case, BOTH would have shut down and I would have been screwed.

    Ever contemplated calling for a tow 60nm offshore? Assuming you can rig something to get radio power (we could have managed that without too much trouble), that would have resulted in a very interesting bill - towing "insurance" or no (and yes, I have it), they won't necessarily come get you that far out.

    I have no problem with electronic ignition, as it rarely fails, and if one does, and the other won't start, you can play "swap components" to get one working motor.

    However, fully-electronic engines are another matter, and IMHO require careful consideration of where you're boating, what spares you can carry (and afford) with you, where the critical failures are, and how YOU can diagnose enough out there to get home if something goes wrong.

  10. #10
    NANPO 41 Guest

    Electronic engines

    Genesis is exactly right (IMHO of course ). Electronics are a modern miracle. Unfortunately they don't like dampness (Boats do float on the water) and they are not user friendly to repair. There is a lot to be said for the big, old, heavy Detroits. They all but run on beer and potato chips and almost always can you scavange parts off one side if necessary to make the other run.
    That being said it is a difficult choice whether or not to spend the large amount of extra cash new diesels would require. One thing to keep in mind is that the new generation of diesels are as high tech and electronics dependent as the new gas engines are. One other point is that high horsepower, lightweight diesels don,t live as long as the old naturals did.
    ALL IN ALL----- TOUGH CHOICE

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