OPINIONS REQUESTED: Co2 Fire System Inspection / Re-certification

[risctaker]

Hi Guys n Gals,

There are several posts here regarding the re-cert (hydro test) of the OEM Co2 fire system but I received a quote from a local (Lodi, NJ) Fire Equipment vendor that just seems to me to be way off the mark. The details of the quote are provided below and no further info was obtainable from the owner of the firm so far:

1. Removal, transport, return after service and re-install of the large CO2 tank (2 men) $550.00 (Note - this is from Edgewater to Lodi, NJ - approx. 15 miles ***NOTE: This item in particular seems excessive

2. HydroTest cylinder $55.50

3. Rebuild tank discharge valve (rebuild kit & labor) $345.50

4. New Flex discharge Hose $135.50

5. Re-charge cylinder $115.75

6. "Service the entire Kidde CO2 Fire Suppression System" $425.00 ***NOTE: This is one of the items I can't get a better explanation of from the owner. Considering the remainder of the punch list, what is being done to "Service" this system beyond what has already been listed? I asked them to test the sensors to make sure they work. Could this cost $425.00?

7. Service and re-fill five (5) existing 5 lb dry chemical extinguishers ($37.25 ea) = $186.25

8. Provide one (1) new 5 lb Dry Chem Extinguisher $69.75

TOTAL COST (Less NJ Tax) $1,883.25

From several prior posts, I have seen nothing approaching this cost to hydro, refill and test these CO2 systems. Am I being taken for a big ride here? Opinions welcome. Also any recommendations in the northern NJ area that a member has had a good experience with? Thanks in advance for your input as always.

Steve

[MikeP]

Obviously, the charge to pull/replace the tank is what it is. I was quoted a similar price here a few years back. Can you get some help and do it yourself/drop it off? In that case, if you want to do the rest of it yourself, you should only be paying for hydro test and recharge.

If you elect to pay for them to service the entire system, verify that the service includes checking the system with the valve NOT connected to the bottle to ensure that the manual and automatic units function and that they will actually "fire" the discharge valve. Without checking each sensor and resetting the "firing pin" each time, there is no telling if the system will actually work when needed. There are probably several red "clamshells" that detect heat. Each should be checked with a heat gun to see if it will "fire" the discharge valve when heat is applied.

Hatteras issued a notice many years ago stating that the connections for the heat sensors could loosen and leak over time. If they leak, they will not fire the valve. When I checked ours just after buying the boat, NONE of them would trigger the valve. It was a simple matter to tighten/the connections and recheck but it MUST be done in order to KNOW the system will function. Again, a tank full of CO2 that won't discharge is of no use!

FWIW, the certification on the tank - showing that it's OK/full and hydrochecked within requirements (you can weigh/sign off yourself if the bottle is within the hydrocheck time requirement) DOES NOT mean the system will work, only that the bottle is charged.

More FWIW, over the years, I periodically disconnected the discharge valve and checked sensor operation. They always worked so I don't think the connections routinely loosen much. But I didn't feel good about the system without making that check every couple of years.

[Cricket]

Don't think it's that bad at all, remove and install probably ends up being, at the least, 2 men for half a day in total. The rest of the quote is not out of line either.

[risctaker]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the extensive reply. I would be glad to remove the tank and bring it to them to save a few hundred but I have NO idea how to accomplish that without blowing myself out of the boat. The cylinder hasn't been hydro tested for way in excess of 12 years (more like 20) so it definitely needs it. I will use the info in your post to make sure the "system test" for $425 includes the steps you outlined.

Question: I have pretty good mechanical skills but have no experience with these fire systems. Can I safely disconnect that tank and remove it if it is still filled with CO2? Accidental discharge by my taking the wrong approach is my fear.

Thanks
Steve

[MikeP]

Basically, all you have to do is unscrew the valve from the bottle. It takes a large crescent wrench to open wide enough to do that but it's a simple process. Unscrew the valve assembly and hang it with a piece of wire/coat hanger from some convenient spot. DO NOT let the valve assembly hang by the attached copper tube! Then you can move the tank out and have it hydrochecked/recharged.

The valve has a spring loaded "firing pin" that, when fired it releases the CO2. It is literally the same mechanism as firing pin of a rifle/pistol striking the primer of a cartridge. If the valve is unscrewed from the bottle, the bottle would require something - like a nail - to strike the "primer," which is recessed in the bottle's fitting.

The firing pin can be fired/reset as necessary for testing.

Make sure the pin is set and try the manual extinguisher handle, wherever that's located. You will probably hear the "SNAP" as it fires. If not, you can look at the valve and see that it has (or not) fired. If it hasn't, you need to check the cable/be sure it's attached.

Reset the pin, go to one of the clamshells (often painted red) and heat it with a heat gun. Actually a hair dryer will work, that's what I used. The SNAP should occur in 30-45 seconds. Try the other clamshells the same way.

There is no "mechanism" in the clamshell, it is simply a closed container connected with copper tubing to the control valve. When it heats up, the air expands in the clamshell and, via the copper tube, the increased pressure causes the firing pin to be released.

There are probably some copper tube-connector fittings in the runs between the clamshells and the control head. Those, plus the tubing attachment point at the clamshells are the fittings that can be loose. If one fitting is loose/leaking, it is likely that none of the clamshells will work because they are connected together and then a single tube attaches to the control head.

On our 53 there is a clamshell in each engine room and one in the penny room. The system floods ALL three spaces if released.

FWIW, no surveyor I have ever heard of is going to check the system function OR weigh the bottle to determine if it's charged. He/she's just going to check the cert on the bottle.

[Fanfare]

Doug Shuman (Nonchalent1) has a detailed description in the archives of taking this system apart. I once had to move mine, and it was a combination of weight lifting and unexploded bomb disposal. That tank must weigh over 200 lbs alone. And I did not have to get it out of the engine room. It was scary working on it because if it goes off it will displace all the air below (CO2 is 1.5 times heavier than air) and cause you and anyone else below to pass out. I believe I read that if your tank is ever discharged this cuts the hydro time in half from then on, which seems silly but that's what I recall. The old steel scuba tanks were discharged all the time plus used in salt water--but they were also internally visually inspected annually and hydro tested every five years.

My first CO2 tank failed its inspection many years ago due to rust on its base. It sat in a wooden cup on the engine room deck. I therefore drilled a small hole through the cup and deck so water could not accumulate there and also had the new tank's base epoxied to protect the metal better.

My insurance companies have always insisted on current certification of all my fire equipment, from the built-in Kidde in the engine rooms and generator to the five large 20 lb hand held extinguishers elsewhere on board. Not having this could be grounds for denial of a claim.

I was touring a USCG Cutter which was visiting the Lunenberg Fisheries Exposition a few years ago. While onboard a fire alarm sounded. Immediately we were told to leave. The entire crew mustered with hoses, axes and extinguishers in hand to investigate what turned out to be a false alarm. It was a lesson to me since I seem to get such false alarms from my Hatteras Safety Center about once a decade. I resolved to never again go to check on any fire alarm without an extinguisher ready in my hand. In a wood and fiberglass boat there are only seconds in which to stop a fire before it is too late.

[bobk]

I can confirm the re-cert time. Discussed this with a fire extinguisher center this week and was told that after the initial 10 year period, re-certs were required every 5 years.

Bobk

[MikeP]

"That tank must weigh over 200 lbs alone. "

275 for a charged bottle sticks in my mind for some reason. But don't quote me on that. The CO2 charge itself is 75 pounds, that I DO remember.

Good memory! I think it was Nonchalant's instructions that I was following the first time I did it way back in the "noughts!

[Cricket]

I think the $550 is well worth the price between busting a nut, blowing yourself up, being unable to breath if it goes off.

[MikeP]

The previous owner of our 53 told me that he twice had the system activated by visiting grandchildren pulling the manual handle. From that point on, whenever his grandchildren came aboard, he unscrewed the head and pulled the valve partially out so the firing pin could not hit the bottle release. He screwed it back in when they left.

He said that when the bottle fired, it sounded like a jet plane was landing ON the boat.