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  1. #21

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    NY Times has the AIS trace of the ship plotted. Seemed to be chugging along in a straight line until things got all pear-shaped. Then it looks like nobody wanted the responsibility of being in command.

    --- The poster formerly known as Scrod ---

    I want to live in Theory, everything works there.

  2. #22

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    Quote Originally Posted by krush View Post
    Stop this nonsense. It is because of INCOMPETENCE. One can be young, and just have a slight amount of experience, and still be competent. Experience and wisdom are more important in abnormal situations.
    Maybe it's nonsense. Generally speaking experience and wisdom come with age. But as you indicate, not always. If you read the NTSB marine accident reports involving the CG, for example, you will see that there is some sort of correlation between accident rates and the operators' age. You're right when you say age is not the only determinant of ability or experience. But a lot of what happens on the water is age related because many of the younger folks believe they are bulletproof; a/k/a unguided ability. Not mentioning any names.
    Robert Clarkson
    ASLAN, 1983 55C
    Charleston, SC
    Lake Titicaca, Bolivia

  3. #23

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    Quote Originally Posted by racclarkson@gmail.com View Post
    Maybe it's nonsense.
    Sorry, I was ambiguous. What I mean is nonsense is that as a culture, we seem to be accepting age/inexperience as a reason for being incompetent for a job that 30-50 years ago 15-18 year olds did all the time.
    FTFD... i drive a slow 1968 41c381

  4. #24

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    I understand. To me it's akin to kids who can't do long division because calculators are ubiquitous. I see parents who are scared to death their kid might burn their hand on the stove. The kid will get burned sooner or later; I would hope it would be on the stove as opposed to a life and death situation. So who's fault is that? Not the kid's I would argue.
    Robert Clarkson
    ASLAN, 1983 55C
    Charleston, SC
    Lake Titicaca, Bolivia

  5. #25

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    Must agree that the snowflake culture has us expecting less and less of young adults. And they have lowered confidence and expectations in their own ability and responsibility as a result. We reap what we sow.
    --- The poster formerly known as Scrod ---

    I want to live in Theory, everything works there.

  6. #26

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    There is sure a lot of brutal finger-pointing here. Can we wait for the investigation? At least 3 agencies will do one.
    While I cannot speak to todays navy some 50 years ago I was a radarman on a destroyer and yeah we stopped at Yokuska on the way to Vietnam.
    1) a radarman in CIC was always assigned the "scope". When you had the duty, you did not leave the scope for even 5 seconds. Hell, the butt-kit was literally bolted to the side of the console!So this guy was connected to another RD on the bridge who stalked the OD. Nine months of 'A' school was certainly sufficient to train about collision course and CPA.Back then we would use a grease pencil to extend the "pecker trail" to the center of the scope. You had your grease pencil, a rag and a cig in your mouth.
    2} Then, as now, the radar was watched 24/7 even when 1000 mile from nowhere. Merchantmen and yes, 95000 ton cruise ships with 5000 soles aboard, do not post a constant radar watch.
    3) Something went real wrong here-even assuming the container ship did a wild 180. This class of destroyer can stop in it's own length at flank speed!

    USS Braine, DD630, Constellation battle group-if you care. Geez, I am getting old.


  7. #27

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    If you want to know who the seven sailors who died on the Fitzgerald were, there is an article about them in the NYTimes. It is very affecting. They died protecting their country.

  8. #28

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    Accidents are not planned which is why they call them accidents. Good training along with a proper mental attitude should hopefully minimize their rate of occurrence. Is the quality of training in our military services as good as what is offered at the maritime academies? Possibly, but I believe that some degree of arrogance is often at play. The pecking order generally gives the right of way to Military vessels over just about anything else. Many of us have witnessed the sailboat flexing his perceived "right of way" which just as often as not is wrong. There is no right of way. In crossing situations we are all responsible even if the other guy is a jerk. Many folks in a position of authority feel that the rules don't apply to them, which is very unfortunate as we frequently see on the news. Sometimes it's just plain old confusion as to what action to take until it's too late to correct the mistake. A case in point was the Andrea Doria collision with the Stockholm in the 50's where both vessels "saw" each other on the radar as well as eventually visually and the wrong maneuver was made. On the water it is seldom 100% the fault of one party, blame is usually shared because Navigation Rule #1 was not followed. Each skipper is required to take whatever action necessary to avoid a collision even if it violates another rule.

    It really get's me angry when I hear about another tragedy that should have not happened and in this case causing the loss of 7 young people who didn't even get a chance to live a normal life through no fault of their own. You can bet that quite a few careers will be over no matter the blame. We are all diminished because of this.....RIP young sailors.........


  9. #29

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    The Containership was in the Navy ships "danger zone" and clearly had the right of way as proof by the damage on the starboard side of the navy ship.

    Rules of the Road are governed by the Collision Regulations. They spell out which vessel is the Stand-On Vessel and which vessel is the Give-Way Vessel.

    They also explain actions to take for crossing, meeting and overtaking situations.

    Every pleasure boat operator who must give-way to another vessel, that means the operator who has to move, must take "early and substantial action to avoid a collision."

    The stand-on vessel must "maintain course and speed."

    Danger (Give-Way) Zone
    Danger Zone
    The green sector on your boat, that sector defined by your green sidelight, is your Danger Zone or your Give-Way Zone.

    This extends from the centreline on your bow (dead ahead) to 22.5 abaft the starboard beam, or 112.5 from the bow, along your starboard side.

    When another skipper sees your green light, he has the right of way...green for go. When you have a boat in your green sector, you must take early and substantial action to avoid collision.

    Endless Summer
    1967 50c 12/71n DDA 525hp
    ex Miss Betsy
    Howard P. Miller 1967-1974
    Richard F Hull 1974-1976
    Robert J. & R.Scott Smith 1976-present

  10. #30

    Re: Navy crash and blow boaters

    I have personally seen a boat operator, looking at his chart plotter, maneuver the boat per the plotter to ensure it was in the channel entering a narrow cut (Knapps Narrows). BUT, the boat was actually heading straight at the land to the left of the cut. Someone who was actually LOOKING advised the operator and his initial response was, "No, we're right on course, look!" [pointing at the chart plotter]. He was finally convinced that looking outside (bright, clear day) and seeing where the boat was and where it was heading was more accurate than navigation by video game.
    Mike P
    San Miguel de Allende, Mexico; Kent Island MD; San Antonio TX
    1980 53MY "Brigadoon"

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